Civil Discussion about Melo

[noone]

Like I said, camby had a good game, scratch that Camby had a great game. Which is my point. The camby that played tonight is the camby that should show up most nights. Because of this conversation I was watching him in particular and he consistently went to the glass on the offensive end for rebounds and trailed the defense. So don't let the shot chart fool ya. The vast majority of the game Camby was inside the three point line and he did exactly what i want from him on that end of the floor by maintaining good position in the vicinity of the basket.

Oh, I get it. You must not have seen too many game this season. Gotcha. Cause let me tell you, in each circumstance, depending on whether Martin was in the game or Najera, he played no different than he had previously in any game.

Btw, he grabbed 2 o-boards against the Celtics. He averages 3.3 per game. Hitting that offensive glass sure paid off. Season high!

[Maf]

civil debate? Why not.


Well, no news at all. Defense. You know at least ACT like you play defense.
Be more agresive. I don't have numbers for it, but I bet Melo doesn't attack the rim as much as he used to do. He has fantastic "jab-step fade away jumper" , but after some games I couldn't remember Melo doing anything else. His game can be so funny it's a crime when he just takes 15 footers

[ambiglight]

-= original quote snipped =-



Oh, I get it. You must not have seen too many game this season. Gotcha. Cause let me tell you, in each circumstance, depending on whether Martin was in the game or Najera, he played no different than he had previously in any game.

Btw, he grabbed 2 o-boards against the Celtics. He averages 3.3 per game. Hitting that offensive glass sure paid off. Season high!

Actually you're mistaken. I got League Pass just so I can watch these denver games and I've only missed the last coupe monday games and thats over the entire season. So i have more than a qualified opinion on what camby does and does not do. And camby played a lot different which is what made him have an above average game. In this game he actually contributed on the offensive end whereas he usually is just a waste of space in the typical game. You say he stood on the perimeter the entire game, I disagree. I saw him cutting and standing within the vicinity of the basket on multiple occasions which is all that should be expected of a center. As for the stats, Denver shoots 45% for the year but shot 51% yesterday, so with their better shooting percentage there was less need for offensive rebounding.

[noone]

In this game he actually contributed on the offensive end whereas he usually is just a waste of space in the typical game.

Um, no. He didn't contribute any more than he normally does. He grabbed less o-boards. He tied his season average in assists. The only difference was he scored 1.7 more points than he normally does on a better percentage. And no, that better percentage wasn't due to him playing in the paint. It was due to him hitting a higher percentage of his jump shots. And all that while playing 5 minutes more than his average.

You say he stood on the perimeter the entire game, I disagree. I saw him cutting and standing within the vicinity of the basket on multiple occasions which is all that should be expected of a center.

Find where I said he stood on the perimeter the entire game. He was on the perimeter when Martin was in, and in the paint when Najera was in. Martin was on the bench more than usual so Camby also was in the paint more than usual. Unfortunately for your little theory, all his production (points and assists) came from when he was on the perimeter (see above and/or my last post). I don't think I can emphasize that enough. So regardless of him spending more time in the paint during the game, he wasn't any more productive because of it. That's the bottom line.

As for the stats, Denver shoots 45% for the year but shot 51% yesterday, so with their better shooting percentage there was less need for offensive rebounding.

Fair enough, but the way you talk about o-boards improving with Camby in the paint, I'd have expected him to have played above the norm.

[ambiglight]

In this game he actually contributed on the offensive end whereas he usually is just a waste of space in the typical game.

Um, no. He didn't contribute any more than he normally does. He grabbed less o-boards. He tied his season average in assists. The only difference was he scored 1.7 more points than he normally does on a better percentage. And no, that better percentage wasn't due to him playing in the paint. It was due to him hitting a higher percentage of his jump shots. And all that while playing 5 minutes more than his average.

You say he stood on the perimeter the entire game, I disagree. I saw him cutting and standing within the vicinity of the basket on multiple occasions which is all that should be expected of a center.

Find where I said he stood on the perimeter the entire game. He was on the perimeter when Martin was in, and in the paint when Najera was in. Martin was on the bench more than usual so Camby also was in the paint more than usual. Unfortunately for your little theory, all his production (points and assists) came from when he was on the perimeter (see above and/or my last post). I don't think I can emphasize that enough. So regardless of him spending more time in the paint during the game, he wasn't any more productive because of it. That's the bottom line.

As for the stats, Denver shoots 45% for the year but shot 51% yesterday, so with their better shooting percentage there was less need for offensive rebounding.

Fair enough, but the way you talk about o-boards improving with Camby in the paint, I'd have expected him to have played above the norm.

There are plenty of ways to be productive on the offensive end without touching the ball. Proper positioning, keeping your man occupied, moving off the ball, setting screens that free up a player for a high percentage shot are all a part of the offense. Not to mention steals and drawing fouls. I think for the minutes that camby plays any increase in scoring is significant. Just as steals and those other contributions on offense are all part of making your team better. Camby did those things and it reflected in the much better ball movement and spacing on the floor. By playing inside the three point line, it made it much easier for other players to make boston pay on bad double teams. Hence boston playing straight up most of the game when they realized denvers bigs were actually willing to cut to the basket whether they hit the shot or not. As for what you "said" or didn't say. I said he didn't stand on the perimeter like he usually does and observed he had a good game as a result of playing like a traditional center. I am not arguing AGAINST what you may have said, but rather FOR what I have said from the beginning. Which is that melo can demonstrate his leadership by getting karl to position camby properly in the offensive structure. Which to me is around the painted area or better said the basket. The real conflict between our two positions is just a matter of factual observation. You think that having a big body primarily outside the three point line with a low scoring and shooting average has little detrimental effect on the offense and in fact helps with transition defense and opens up space in teh paint. I disagree. I see a center that poses little scoring threat on the outside as a liability and overly redundant as instrument of transition defense. Primarily because the defense responds by contracting around the interior or doubling off the ball because even if they pass to camby he's not going to shoot nor is he going to make a pass on the perimeter that is difficult to cover. I see several advantages to a moving camby hovering around the paint that outweigh the single disadvantage of a possible clogging of the driving lanes. pretty simple discussion...

[noone]

You've gotta be kidding me. You named a bunch of things a player can do on offense, and then you said "Camby did those things". How much more subjective can you get.

I've let this style of arguing slide the entire time. It's just not going to work anymore. You make a statement. I come back with the stats to back it up. Your reply then has absolutely nothing to do with the stats I post, just a bunch of subjective comments.

For example:

I see a center that poses little scoring threat on the outside as a liability and overly redundant as instrument of transition defense.

And how many times do I have to prove that his jump shot isn't as bad as you'd like to make it seem. Oh yeah, and that 9 of his 11 points against Boston came from jumpers.

You think that having a big body primarily outside the three point line with a low scoring and shooting average has little detrimental effect on the offense and in fact helps with transition defense and opens up space in teh paint. I disagree.

I've never said to put him behind the 3 point line. But continue to put words in my mouth. He needs to stand at the top of the key unless there are 4 better shooters on the team. You haven't proven that wrong. It's what worked in the Boston game too.

Which is that melo can demonstrate his leadership by getting karl to position camby properly in the offensive structure. Which to me is around the painted area or better said the basket.

Fluff.

Primarily because the defense responds by contracting around the interior or doubling off the ball because even if they pass to camby he's not going to shoot nor is he going to make a pass on the perimeter that is difficult to cover

If a team sends a double team, Melo passes out of the double to Camby. And then Camby makes another pass, it won't be difficult to cover? The entire defense is out of place switching to keep up but it won't be difficult to cover. Yeah, right. I'm convinced you have no idea how an offense operates.

Please, bring facts next time you post instead of subjective comments or statements that you can't back up. It's getting old.

[MELO4MVP]

lol at actually arguing with a guy who feels camby should be in the paint

[pickaxe]

Actually no. My logic founded on solid basketball principles. On a team that emphasizes iso's and two man ball, you got to have a designated player crashing the boards on the offensive end. Typically, that player is the big body not taking the shot. In most cases that would be martin or camby. Depending on where the ball is, you always have at least one player rotate to the top of the key to slow the transition on a miss. Players are not supposed to jack a shot and then just run back on D. You got two jobs on the perimeter, making long rebounds don't touch the floor in your vicinity and protecting against the run. This responsibility is that of the perimeter players NOT the center. Camby is not one of these hybrid centers that can shoot from anywhere on the court. As such he should not be sitting on the perimeter as much as he does. (O and by the way, camby had a great game tonight primarily because he didn't sit at the top of the key the entire game. Apparently he got my memo. peace)

Agree here on the running back. When the ball is finally in the hands of the opponent and they begin to run back, there is no doubt it's time to get back on D.......Camby can get back himself though because he usually doesn't pick up the long rebound because it ends up too low to the ground (he usually fumbles if it goes too low and gets past his waist), so it is up to a K-Mart or Melo, or Carter to go for the offensive rebound and sometimes pick it up from a short bounce.

There always seems to be 4 players from the other team rebounding our misses though, and sometimes those are misses from Camby on the perimeter. Eliminate that ugly idea, and Camby can sit up there more often.

[ambiglight]

Agreed. The basic point that seems to be missed here by some is that the offensive strategy is flawed in several ways. Camby's placement in the offense is but one example of how melo can demonstrate some leadership by requesting he be used in a more traditional role as a center.

We've all seen exactly what you described whether some of us are willing to admit it or not. A center making a pass to someone five feet away on the perimeter like the other three perimeter players can't make that pass. Meanwhile, melo is getting doubled by the camby's guy and there's a clear path to the basket if Camby just cuts to the basket. But as 3 out of 4 times he doesnt make that cut, the double team either forces melo to shoot a tough jump shot or make a difficult long pass. He ends up missing and four defensive players are standing around one rebound with no pressure from the opposing offense because everybody is sitting the perimeter pretending to play transition D. Its bad spacing and leads to teams contracting around the interior. How many times do we see that little mid-range jumper of AI's skip across the rim for a miss that can easily be tipped in by an active center under the basket. I mean k-marts the only one that actually tries to benefit from AIs ability to penetrate and take shots that result in very short rebounds. Camby has one reasonable purpose on the perimeter and thats his lob and entry pass to Melo. But that only happens a couple times a game. What is he doing for the other 70 or so possessions?The fact is camby should be more often than not moving to or around the basket. As for him missing lay ups, nothing can be done about that but he's definitely got a better chance to score off of a tip in than a long jump-shot.