Denver @ Chicago

[noone]

JR is a 4th option on a championship team. And that's what this team is trying to be. When/if he improves, he has the potential to be a 3rd option. If there's a team where he's the first or second option, that team is most likely a lottery team.

To be given the recognition as a 20 point scorer, you have to have consistency. JR might be the most inconsistent player on the team.

[RRFB]

JR is a 4th option on a championship team. And that's what this team is trying to be. When/if he improves, he has the potential to be a 3rd option. If there's a team where he's the first or second option, that team is most likely a lottery team.

To be given the recognition as a 20 point scorer, you have to have consistency. JR might be the most inconsistent player on the team.

JR was our second option last year before the Iverson trade and was playing great. He was averaging over 17 points a game and we were far from a lottery team.

And Kleiza is way more inconsistent than JR is.

[noone]

-= original quote snipped =-

JR was our second option last year before the Iverson trade and was playing great. He was averaging over 17 points a game and we were far from a lottery team.

You're using 22 games to make your case. But I won't even make an issue out of that be cause he was only averaging 15.9 ppg anyways. That's far from 20 ppg especially considering you have 3 30 point games that help skew his ppg. After that he had a 23 and a 21 point game. Everything else was less than 18. On top of that they were only 13-9 in those games. Nothing to get too excited over.

And Kleiza is way more inconsistent than JR is.

You could make a case for both of them. I don't really care either way, I was just making my point.

[pickaxe]

On the 22 game thing....when he got minutes he produced. He still needs development.

I don't know. I'm seeing glimmers of superstar in JR, and it's like knowing the playoff advancement is in the kid's hands and spending the time now to develop him is going to be one of the things that save this season.

[corona]

On top of that they were only 13-9 in those games. Nothing to get too excited over.

that's a pace to win 1 less game than we're on pace to now. (and without kmart and a fatass nene, they weren't better off health-wise) considering what we were seeing out of jr at the time...i think most were pretty excited about it. when you have the best scoring duo in the league, and one of the guys you got for two second round picks...there's no reason not to be.

[noone]

On top of that they were only 13-9 in those games. Nothing to get too excited over.

that's a pace to win 1 less game than we're on pace to now. (and without kmart and a fatass nene, they weren't better off health-wise) considering what we were seeing out of jr at the time...i think most were pretty excited about it. when you have the best scoring duo in the league, and one of the guys was just traded for two second round picks...there's no reason not to be.

Good point on the win%. I didn't even realise that. But I wouldn't compare that win% with this season just because the West is much stronger this year.

Nonetheless it was only 22 games. That's hardly enough to make a case for anything. Players go on hot streaks all the time. There's nothing that says he wouldn't have come back down to earth. Plus, he was and still is a very inconsistent player. He had 3 30+ games. 4 games in the single digits (3 games of 5 points or less). All in 22 games.

I'm not saying what he was doing was nothing to get excited over especially with such a young player, just the fact that if he's averaging 20 ppg on any team over the course of a season, it's MOST LIKELY (I stated that in my initial comment also) a lottery team. Aside from the fact that he wasn't even averaging 20 ppg, having a very good point guard on the team as well as the top scorer in the league kind of helps to stay out of the lottery.

I think I've regressed a bit much though. On a championship team, right now, he isn't better than a 4th option. Iverson/Melo are both 2nd option players (a post scoring big being the obvious 1st). You have the likes of Bynum, Parker, Shaq or Amare (take your pick), Terry, and Peja as your 3rd options on contending teams (right now). JR does not belong amongst those names. Which is my whole point that at this point in his career, if he's any better than the 4th option on a team, you probably aren't an elite team.

[corona]

There's nothing that says he wouldn't have come back down to earth.

last season after coming back from suspension he put up identical per minute numbers as compared to the first 22 games. i've demonstrated this before so i wont take the time to do the statistical work...but its true. the only thing i think that changed was his fg% (not 3fg%) dropped 2-3 points, which i'd say is as much due to inconsistent minutes and playing in spurts as anything (even melo's fg% would drop if you played him every 3rd game for 5-10 minutes)

I'm not saying what he was doing was nothing to get excited over especially with such a young player, just the fact that if he's averaging 20 ppg on any team over the course of a season, it's MOST LIKELY (I stated that in my initial comment also) a lottery team. Aside from the fact that he wasn't even averaging 20 ppg, having a very good point guard on the team as well as the top scorer in the league kind of helps to stay out of the lottery.

he was averaging under 30mpg in that time. get him to 35 and he's basically a 20ppg scorer (he was hitting 3's at a very high rate, i highly doubt he doesn't make another bucket a game given some extra burn). denver was far from being a lottery team and who was around him is kind of pointless. he was putting up those numbers on a winning team.

. Plus, he was and still is a very inconsistent player. He had 3 30+ games. 4 games in the single digits (3 games of 5 points or less). All in 22 games.

the inconsistencies were his minutes as much as anything. 0 points in 12 minutes in his second game of the season, 2 points in 19 minutes in a blowout loss to washington. i'll give you memphis. in 15 of the 22 games he scored between 12 and 23 points...that's good imho. not to mention he was 20 years old. kobe was inconsistent at that age, so was melo. was iverson even in the league?

overall, when he got minutes...he produced at a pretty efficient & consistent rate. you can look at that by per minute standards, or you can look at the games through the rest of the season in which he got 20+ minutes and calculate the stats from just those games.

heck..i even remember around march of last year displaying statistics correlating jr and his production vs wins. and they were very direct.

you take ac out, put jr in for 30 minutes...i'd put a lot of money on him averaging over 15 points on good percentages.

ou have the likes of Bynum, Parker, Shaq or Amare (take your pick), Terry, and Peja as your 3rd options on contending teams (right now). JR does not belong amongst those names.

i think its funny you include bynum.
the only successful point in his career has been this season where's he's averaging 13/10 in 29mpg...but has played just 35 games total. not to mention his inconsistencies in those games...8 games of 8 or fewer points, including a couple 4 or less...had a couple games with just 2 rebounds in a lot of minutes. you dismiss jr's play in 22 games but include bynum as a great 3rd option though he's done it in just a handful more games. before that he was a 7/6 player in garbage time, with 75% of lakers fans (including kobe) pleading for him to be traded for jason kidd.
as excited as lakers fans are about him now....we were as excited about jr last season.

he can be a very good 3rd option given a chance, and second if he continues to develop & improve.

[noone]

Obviously you've done your research on JR and his stats, so I'll take your word for it.

i think its funny you include bynum.
the only successful point in his career has been this season where's he's averaging 13/10 in 29mpg...but has played just 35 games total. not to mention his inconsistencies in those games...8 games of 8 or fewer points, including a couple 4 or less...had a couple games with just 2 rebounds in a lot of minutes. you dismiss jr's play in 22 games but include bynum as a great 3rd option though he's done it in just a handful more games. before that he was a 7/6 player in garbage time, with 75% of lakers fans (including kobe) pleading for him to be traded for jason kidd.
as excited as lakers fans are about him now....we were as excited about jr last season.

Forget everything else, take Bynum's name out of my post and the point still stands. You could even replace Bynum's name with Odom if you wanted. Point still stands.

However, I will give my case though for including Bynum.

My actual placement of Bynum amongst those names has very little to do with the stats that he puts up. It's mostly what he does for the offense that gets him on the list.

A big man with a back to the basket offensive game scoring 13 ppg (especially one doing it on almost 64%) is more valuable to a team than a guard scoring 16 ppg. Just go through my last post and you'll see I mentioned Iverson and Melo as second options even though they're amongst the leaders in ppg. Reason being guards will never be fit (unless you're Jordan) to being the number 1 option because those aren't the types of teams that win you a championship. Because of which the value of a center than can score is much greater than that of a guard.

I've even said repeatedly on this board that this team struggles offensively because they don't have that third option in Nene. Nene only averaged 12 ppg but he was a great third option last season only because he's a big man and a back to the basket weapon. His presence on the court makes it so much easier for the other players and makes the offense much more efficient. And offensively, no matter who puts up the better numbers (unless we're talking about a 10 point difference or something), he will always be more important to the team than JR.

A couple questions:

Do you really believe that JR's presence on the court as a 3rd option would be more valuable than Bynum's on any team?

This team is looking to compete for the title, would you rather have Bynum on it or JR?

Look at any other elite team, is JR better than a 4th option on any of them?

Just to rehash, this has absolutely nothing to do with potential and what they might turn out to be in the future. We're looking at the players now.

he can be a very good 3rd option given a chance, and second if he continues to develop & improve.

Imo, he's still a couple years away from being a 3rd option (if he ever develops that far) on a championship team. He makes far too many mistakes right now and is far too inconsistent with his all around play. He has yet to learn how to let the game come to him, and until he does, he'll continue to make a lot of mistakes and find himself on the bench. Just look at all the other 3rd options I've mentioned (exclude Bynum), they all have much more well rounded offensive games than JR.

As for JR potentially becoming a 2nd option on a championship team, I don't see him ever being a player like Iverson, Melo, Kobe, Arenas, etc, so I disagree.

My list of some other 3rd options on a potential championship team:

Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Andre Iguodala, Gerald Wallace, Joe Johnson, etc...

On non-contending teams, those guys are 2nd options. Contending teams, they're 3rd options. JR doesn't belong on the list.

[NoahISmyNinja]

You're making it obvious you don't watch this team much, if at all. JR is on the bench because of his bone-headed mistakes. It's not because Iverson can't or won't play the point.

I've probably watched 20/25 Denver games this year on league pass because Denver along with GState, is probably the most fun team in the league to watch.

Denver is 4th in the league at 107 points a game.

Only the Lakers Phoenix and GState average more. San Antonio and Houston BOTH average more than 10 points less. Its clear to me that Denver's main issue is perimeter defense. Thats why Artest would have been a valuable pick up. At the same time the issue is not just needing another perimeter defender. The issue is the commitment to defending the perimeter.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba ... nd-a_N.htm

Read Iverson's OWN words.

Iverson: I guess when you ask so many guys to score, you sometimes think you can outscore people. You've got (center) Marcus Camby and you feel like he's going to play defense for all of us. It doesn't work like that. A lot of times we rely on him too much, instead of concentrating on stopping our man. But in this league, it's not about man-to-man defense

[corona]

fair enough, noone.

my point in any thread regarding jr is that he needs more minutes, particularly in place of anthony carter. i think anyone would have a hard time disagreeing with that if they see the offensive droughts this team goes through and if they spend a game focusing on what ac's man does defensively (basically roams and doubles whoever he likes without repercussion).

[corona]

I've probably watched 20/25 Denver games this year on league pass because Denver along with GState, is probably the most fun team in the league to watch.

Denver is 4th in the league at 107 points a game.

Only the Lakers Phoenix and GState average more. San Antonio and Houston BOTH average more than 10 points less. Its clear to me that Denver's main issue is perimeter defense.

denver plays more possessions than any other team in the nba. faster than phoenix, golden state, or LA....yet they average less points.
15th in fg%
18th in 3fg%
5th in topg
of course they'll score more points a game than san antonio or houston...they play about 10 possessions more per game. that doesn't mean they score more efficiently or consistently (actually, they're better than houston).
denver's 13th in the league in offensive efficiency (points scored per possession), they're 5th (best) in defensive efficiency (points allowed per possession)

what's the bigger problem?

Now if he says it, are you going to argue with him about it?

yes, i will without hesitation.
melo would say the same thing for some reason.
i think because they're both basically 30ppg scorers...they believe in themselves too much to consider offense a problem. they believe this idea that because both of them can score...scoring as a team shouldn't be a problem. but it doesn't work that way.
during this all-star break melo was asked what needs to get better to get pasted the 8th/9th seed in the second half of the season. he said consistency, and he's right. ask him 3 months before and he would have said defense (in fact i remember him getting asked that same question multiple times).

You also can't tell me that sacrificing a little scoring to focus more on stopping his man and dishing out a couple more assists wouldn't be MORE beneficial to the team than droping 25 a game when your team already scores 107. Thats crazy.

crazy or not, its exactly what i'm saying.
AC will not stop ginobili in the playoffs. i doubt if he'll even slow him down.
but having AC on the court offensively for denver just gave popovich someone to double off all series long. that makes the jobs of iverson/melo (to score) infinitely more difficult to do at a consistent/efficient clip.

statistically, denver's defense is the same regardless of if jr's on the court or not. its worse with carter on than off.

[NoahISmyNinja]

fair enough, noone.

my point in any thread regarding jr is that he needs more minutes, particularly in place of anthony carter. i think anyone would have a hard time disagreeing with that if they see the offensive droughts this team goes through and if they spend a game focusing on what ac's man does defensively (basically roams and doubles whoever he likes without repercussion).

Hey then we are in agreement here. The essence of what I am saying is that playing AC at the point at JR's expense hurts the team. JR getting consistent minutes also means that there is no size mismatch at the Guard position. JR can guard the 2(i think pretty well when he wants to) and AI can guard the 1.

I'll let the dead horse stay dead from here. PLAY JR KARL!

[noone]

fair enough, noone.

my point in any thread regarding jr is that he needs more minutes, particularly in place of anthony carter. i think anyone would have a hard time disagreeing with that if they see the offensive droughts this team goes through and if they spend a game focusing on what ac's man does defensively (basically roams and doubles whoever he likes without repercussion).

I agree. JR needs more minutes than Carter. As much as JR's erracticness on the court peeves me at times, he's much better than Carter by default. Carter shouldn't get more than 10-15 mpg.

Noahismyninja,

Corona has said a lot of what I would have said. They may be amongst the leaders in ppg, but in offensive efficiency (the much better indicator) they're only 13th. Offense is their biggest problem with consistency on the defensive end a close second.

Now if he says it, are you going to argue with him about it?

What exactly did he say that says that offense isn't a problem? He said they THINK they can just outscore everybody. That doesn't mean they actually can.

corona wrote:
fair enough, noone.

my point in any thread regarding jr is that he needs more minutes, particularly in place of anthony carter. i think anyone would have a hard time disagreeing with that if they see the offensive droughts this team goes through and if they spend a game focusing on what ac's man does defensively (basically roams and doubles whoever he likes without repercussion).


I agree. JR needs more minutes than Carter. As much as JR's erracticness on the court peeves me at times, he's much better than Carter by default. Carter shouldn't get more than 10-15 mpg.

Noahismyninja,

Corona has said a lot of what I would have said. They may be amongst the leaders in ppg, but in offensive efficiency (the much better indicator) they're only 13th. Offense is their biggest problem with consistency on the defensive end a close second.

Quote:
Now if he says it, are you going to argue with him about it?

What exactly did he say that says that offense isn't a problem. He said they think they can just outscore everybody. Whoopdee damn doo. That doesn't mean they actually can.

Quit trying to correlate taking less shots to better defense. Iverson can play better defense without shooting less or dishing more.

The onus is on Karl to put the team in a position to succed and you can't tell me that the "stability" of AC at the point outweighs the potential benefit of JR at the 2 getting consistent minutes.

JR is the better player, period. I've never said otherwise. But at the same time I don't blame Karl for benching him at times when he does. A team looking to contend can't afford to have a big question mark on the court for too many minutes especially late in a close game, and when JR's shot isn't falling, his game can get very ugly.

Come on. I know K-Mart is not all the way back, but he is more than serviceable. He is averaging almost 15 a game this month and is steadily improving.

Martin's offense is very inconsistent, especially his jump shot. And his jump hook is pretty ugly and inconsistent also. Going into the playoffs, his offense isn't something you want to have to rely on in order to win games. Camby's offense isn't reliable. Iverson needs to score for the team to win.