for all the people bashing otis

[theTHIEF]

everything you say is illogical...what is wrong with you Hec? do you need a vacation? all these questions you pose, let's just say they are less than cognitive...accept fate Hec...

[Big A All Day]

OTIS BRINGS THE FAN OWNAGE IN B.S.'s BLOG, NICE.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports ... k-ing.html

(picture)

Whats up with all the pics lol? it looks like this blog is writen by a 12 yr old.

[maginno]

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Question:

Is there any gray areas in discussing Otis? Or is it only black/white?

Well have you taken the time to read the thread title? Basically it calls out people who don't like Otis as a Gm. They make their case and I am begging to differ. I mean given the title did you think we wouldn't or shouldn't have very strong rebuttals.

OF course Otis is not ALL to blame for Fran. Poor form on Fran's part but you are making the argument that Otis has no responsibility at all for it. HE was the GM and that was his pick. Said I'd be willing to give Otis a pass on that pick if he had shown he was good at others.

Incidentally if he ever gets Redick off the bench its possible he might have a good pick but its looking like that pick is just going to sit until it moves along like some other picks for Otis

[mhectorgato]

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Really? Thats odd cause I'm only a few hours out of Orlando and we've had it for years. Sure you live in Orlando my friends there and my visits indicate running water there as well.

That point didn't have to do with GMs. Any city can have one that stinks. But I guarantee you New York fans aren't going to ever be satisfied with a ten game improvement over this year.

Has that helped them the past few seasons?

Have their complaints dislodged Isaiah from either of his positions?

What's their record this year? Is it even close to our record last year?

It's also a lot easier to make a 10 game improvement when you have one of the worst records in the league.

[mhectorgato]

OF course Otis is not ALL to blame for Fran. Poor form on Fran's part but you are making the argument that Otis has no responsibility at all for it. HE was the GM and that was his pick.

In my mind, Otis and the rest of the organization got played. It wasn't as if Otis was the only one who scouted him, spoke with his coach, spoke with his US agent, only one who made the decision. So if Fran and his Euro agents were able to that, then I hardly assess any blame in Otis' direction.

To me it's like the issue with the power outage in south FL. If a tech bypassed the safety overrides on his own, I'm not going to blame the president/CEO of FP&L.

[maginno]

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Has that helped them the past few seasons?

Have their complaints dislodged Isaiah from either of his positions?

What does that have to do with anything? Never made the claim that fan approach protected a team form a lousy GM. However I will tell you that fans will dislodge Isaiah from one or both positions shortly.

Doesn't matter what their record is the fact is that New York fans will not be satisfied with great seasons. They want a team that contends. And contend doesn't mean you even make it to the finals. You never know how the ball will drop or who will have a bad game or two and cost a series. Contending simple means that you have a legitimate shot at winning it all.

[MagicNolesFSU]

When you win 20 games, a Ten game improvement doesn't mean much. When you win 40 games, a Ten+ game improvement is incredible....sorry, you dont go from basement to champion in a season. Not every team can trade for Hall of Famers. You want all the success and want none of the path that takes you their.

[maginno]

To me it's like the issue with the power outage in south FL. If a tech bypassed the safety overrides on his own, I'm not going to blame the president/CEO of FP&L.

Don't see the comparison but I get your overall point which is why I said that I'd be willing to give Otis a pass on the fran thing with some good pick management. he just hasn't had that record and if the CEO keep pickin guys that don't pan out for the company then the one that ignored the safety overrides has a good chance of not just being a screw up but a screw up that the CEO missed again.

[mhectorgato]

What does that have to do with anything?

What's the point of incessant complaining if it bears no fruit?

However I will tell you that fans will dislodge Isaiah from one or both positions shortly.

You don't think that his lousy GMing, losing the team as a coach, bring embarrassment with the lawsuit and putting together a bad product will have anything to do with that?

Or that if the fans didn't complain that ownership would still keep him on board?

[mhectorgato]

Don't see the comparison but I get your overall point which is why I said that I'd be willing to give Otis a pass on the fran thing with some good pick management. he just hasn't had that record and if the CEO keep pickin guys that don't pan out for the company then the one that ignored the safety overrides has a good chance of not just being a screw up but a screw up that the CEO missed again.

Otis has had, what, 2 drafts where he's the GM. iirc, it he was a co-GM during Fran-gate. So then he's only had a single draft pick while he was bmoc.

If he get's blamed for Fran, then he should get credit for Dwight.

[maginno]

You want all the success and want none of the path that takes you their.

Nonsense. I can live with that. I actually liked the team we had last year and thought with Bhill out of the way it could be developed. SO choose to distort what I write but what I want is simple -

The path. Wheres the path? You talk a good cliche about path but do you have any clues as to what it means. How do you get from here to there when all you have left to build with is an MLE? What pieces can you trade up with? Hedo and MAYBE Jameer is all you can move to get anything valuable. JJ sitting on the bench for two years hasn't improved that avenue and Carlos is a long shot. What do we need. First a PF then a real two guard and a PG.

Maybe you have to move Hedo since the 118 million man needs to play his real position but I got to tell you I don't know athat this isn't an 7 or 8th seed without Hedo so It all depends on what you are getting back and it isn't going to be premium.

So keep kidding yourself that there is a straightforward path. Otis can still redeem himself but he's done nothing to suggest that he can pull a path out of a hat.

[maginno]

If he get's blamed for Fran, then he should get credit for Dwight.

Sometimes you do get reasonable and then you veer off into irrationality. He gets blamed for Fran because it was ALL his watch his call. Dwight was not his call and his watch. IF you can't see the difference between being a full GM and and an assistant Gm I can't help you.

[mhectorgato]

Sometimes you do get reasonable and then you veer off into irrationality. He gets blamed for Fran because it was ALL his watch his call. Dwight was not his call and his watch. IF you can't see the difference between being a full GM and and an assistant Gm I can't help you.

If you don't see the difference between a co-GM and a full GM then I can't help you either.

[maginno]

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If you don't see the difference between a co-GM and a full GM then I can't help you either.

You lost me Gato or more likely you lost yourself. A co Gm assists another GM a full GM means he holds the position by himself with no other GM assisting him. Dwight was not his call to make by himself Fran was.

[mhectorgato]

You lost me Gato or more likely you lost yourself. A co Gm assists another GM a full GM means he holds the position by himself with no other GM assisting him. Dwight was not his call to make by himself Fran was.

Actually Otis and Dave were co-GMs at the time of the Fran pick. Afterwards Otis was handed the reigns and Dave became our scout master.

[Catledge]

I tend to agree that the circumstances make it hard to blame Otis for Fran not wanting to come over. It's rare enough that a young European player would not want to take his shot at the NBA; it's practically unheard of for a player to lie about it.

But lost in all this is a greater point that I think it's fair to blame Otis for -- Fran isn't very good. Based on his inability to get off the bench in Spain, I don't see any reason to think that he would be getting any more playing time than JJ in Orlando.

I'm not really an Otis basher. I think that the signing of Lewis, while not ideal, was better than not doing anything last summer (I'm far more upset about the decision to extend Jameer). I think letting Darko go and trading Ariza are both proving to be good decisions, and although I had wanted to trade Turk over the summer for a 2 or a 4, holding onto him has proved to be an extremely good decision.

I guess I'm saying that I agree with Hector's argument for a more nuanced view. Wins have to count for something, and if we are going to use hindsight to be critical of the Fran draft, then it makes sense to use hindsight to be happy with decisions about Turk, Francis, Ariza, and Darko.

What's more, if we are going to attribute most of our team improvement to Dwight's individual improvement, it makes sense to believe that his continued improvement in the future means that there is reason to believe that the current squad will get better. That is, it's not entirely accurate to imply that we will never be significantly better than we are this year unless we add an allstar-quality player.

[MagicNolesFSU]

Wins count for EVERYTHING not just something. Wtf you think if NY had 30 wins right now they be crying this much. Its sad. Whens the last time we won our division? When was the last time we had home court in th playoffs? Whens the last time we won 50? Do you want it all at once? It just seems that people like you will never be happy.

[mhectorgato]

Wins count for EVERYTHING not just something. Wtf you think if NY had 30 wins right now they be crying this much. Its sad. Whens the last time we won our division? When was the last time we had home court in th playoffs? Whens the last time we won 50? Do you want it all at once? It just seems that people like you will never be happy.

Wins as mean as much as you want to give 'em credit. Moves on the other hand ....

[maginno]

I think letting Darko go and trading Ariza are both proving to be good decisions,

We didn't decide to let Darko go. We fell into that by Otis sending an email instead of doing the professional thing and informing the agent of our plans to temporarily bypass him by phone. If you recall we were still trying to get him but his agent rebuffed us. Losing Darko has no benefits except to pay Shard more money. Plain and simple. We could have had Shard and a PF. IF we decided that we didn't want Darko he then could have been traded to fill another player need. Either way losing Darko for nothing has not and cannot ever be proven to be a good choice. unless you feel that Shard HAD to or should get the Max. Respect your tone but that argument does not hold water.

Wins have to count for something, and if we are going to use hindsight to be critical of the Fran draft, then it makes sense to use hindsight to be happy with decisions about Turk, Francis, Ariza, and Darko.

Apples and Oranges. No active decisions needed to be made about Turk. Once we got Shard and lost Darko we knew we had to play our 118 million man out of position at PF at least some of the time. You have to think that if you bring in Shard at SF and had a real PF they were thinking of possibly moving Turk. Once Battie went down then we knew we had to keep him at Sf quite abit. So a great deal of what you are talkinga bout simply fell into place as a result of signing Shard to the Max not any decision. Again the idea that losing Darko for nothing is proven good is unfathomable. Most here will point to what he has done this year but the more logical test is what he did here with our system and players and he could have been used and or traded for actual pieces while preserving our MLE.

Winning counts for something in the post season. The regular season matters only in the seeding. There are eight teams that make the playoffs per conference. I know of no other sport that coming 16th is considered winning.. The objective of NBA teams is post season success. I don't know what NBA you guys watch

What's more, if we are going to attribute most of our team improvement to Dwight's individual improvement, it makes sense to believe that his continued improvement in the future means that there is reason to believe that the current squad will get better. That is, it's not entirely accurate to imply that we will never be significantly better than we are this year unless we add an allstar-quality player.

Actually thats a strawman argument A) no one is making the argument for another all star simply players tat are above MLE capability B) we are not all attributing all or even most of the teams improvement to Dwight. I think its more a function af adding Rashard, Hedo having a great season, Stan's coaching and Dwight. to think that is just going to add each year is simply false. Stan's coaching is not going to bump up another 10 wins every season nor is Rashard going on 30 going to continue to improve and frankly in another year or two Hedo will begin to decline.

So some of us though enjoying this season say hey the edge on really winning is so razor edge thin we need a world class Gm that doesn't stop the team from getting better. This one undeniably has thrown a number of hindrances in the way as we are now needlessly strapped for many years to come..

[MagicNolesFSU]

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Wins as mean as much as you want to give 'em credit. Moves on the other hand ....

What?