MVP Watch 2008... Part 3.

[enigmatics]

KG
Chris Paul
Lebron
Kobe

OMG hahaha can you please post a larger version of your avatar on here? That is one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

[Andrew Bynasty]

And Kobe had 20 points at halftime, was at 24/7/2 when they went up by 25 with 5:43 left in the 3rd. He scored all of 5 points the rest of the way, had no rebounds and no assists.

Kobe's play during the comeback. 5 points on 2-6 shooting including an airball, 1-2 from the line, 2 fouls, a turnover.

I've seen MVP candidates lead teams back from down 20+ points, it's pretty rare to see them on the wrong end of the near comeback.

You haters are unreal. The Lakers took a 25pt lead (mainly due to superb play by Kobe) agaisnt A 29-4 HOME TEAM and they did it without Bynum, Gasol, Mihm and Ariza...

And all you can do is complain about Kobe after he came back into the game?
Kobe shouldnt even have had to come back into that game.

The Lakers managed to score 1 point in the 3 minutes Kobe sat. 1 point.

And they still won. Let me repeat.

The Lakers beat the 2nd best home team in the league last night without their #2 and #3 best players... And they were up by 25 at one point.

Its not surprising haters like you never respond to these kinda posts. Cause you have nothing to argue.

[Flash3]

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You haters are unreal. The Lakers took a 25pt lead (mainly due to superb play by Kobe) agaisnt A 29-4 HOME TEAM and they did it without Bynum, Gasol, Mihm and Ariza...

And all you can do is complain about Kobe after he came back into the game?
Kobe shouldnt even have had to come back into that game.

The Lakers managed to score 1 point in the 3 minutes Kobe sat. 1 point.

And they still won. Let me repeat.

The Lakers beat the 2nd best home team in the league last night without their #2 and #3 best players... And they were up by 25 at one point.

Its not surprising haters like you never respond to these kinda posts. Cause you have nothing to argue.

It's really funny and silly when people, such as you, respond to others as 'haters' and what not. It only allows/gives them more avenues to do it moreso, with posts and words such as the ones you used.

Argue with facts & class, and you'll get your point across, and those 'haters' will not have anything worthwhile to combat you with.

Yet, when you address your posts, as such, you only want them to respond; opening Pandora's box, of sorts....

[Andrew Bynasty]

Fair point... But can you really label someone as anything else when all they can do after that unbelivable win is rattle off Kobe's 4th quarter numbers? Its like the people who critisized Kobe's 81pt game cause he only had 1 assist. Theres only one thing they can be labeled as... (And rational aint one of them)

[eatyourchildren]

You have to be ELITE in the category and an obvious leader of your team to get the mention:

-Team Record (KG, TD, Kobe, CP, TMac)
-Individual Offense (LeBron, Kobe, CP)
-Individual Defense (Kobe, KG, TD)
-Contribution to teammates' performance (KG, TD, Kobe, CP, LeBron, TMac)
-Clutch play (LeBron, Kobe, CP, TD)
-Ability to take over the game (LeBron, Kobe, CP)
-Ability to compensate for missing players (LeBron, CP, TMac)
-Toughness/Durability (Kobe)
-Peer Review (Kobe, TD)

Tally:
Kobe: 8
TD: 5
LeBron: 5
CP: 6
TMac: 3
KG: 3

[z_from_kc]

LeBron can make a big statement tonight.

[Deuce33]

LeBron can make a big statement tonight.

Loss..

[CzBoobie]

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Loss..

Far from it, another dominant effort by LBJ...

[prekazi]

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Loss..

[z_from_kc]

You have to be ELITE in the category and an obvious leader of your team to get the mention:

-Team Record (KG, TD, Kobe, CP, TMac)
-Individual Offense (LeBron, Kobe, CP)
-Individual Defense (Kobe, KG, TD)
-Contribution to teammates' performance (KG, TD, Kobe, CP, LeBron, TMac)
-Clutch play (LeBron, Kobe, CP, TD)
-Ability to take over the game (LeBron, Kobe, CP)
-Ability to compensate for missing players (LeBron, CP, TMac)
-Toughness/Durability (Kobe)
-Peer Review (Kobe, TD)

Tally:
Kobe: 8
TD: 5
LeBron: 5
CP: 6
TMac: 3
KG: 3

How is LeBron not durable and tough? That's ludicrous. The guy is an absolute tank. He's played a hell of a lot more games and minutes than Kobe over the last 5 years. LeBron came into the league at 18 and has been carrying an entire franchise since. The rest of your list I don't even care about, but to insinuate that LeBron isn't as tough as anybody in the league shows that your obviously biased.

[prekazi]

^For once in a lifetime, Cavs organization decided not to rush LeBron and let him heal fully early in the season so people love to use this as an argument that LeBron is not tough. Guy is playing basketball whole season, normal season, post season, post-post season with national team, pre-season. Playing at least 40 minutes, carrying a very bad organized club, never complaining, umm I think he's tough and durable.

[eatyourchildren]

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How is LeBron not durable and tough? That's ludicrous. The guy is an absolute tank. He's played a hell of a lot more games and minutes than Kobe over the last 5 years. LeBron came into the league at 18 and has been carrying an entire franchise since. The rest of your list I don't even care about, but to insinuate that LeBron isn't as tough as anybody in the league shows that your obviously biased.

Then make your own list. That's the whole point of this exercise.

BTW, LeBron is no puss, but he's not on the level of playing through injury like AI and Kobe are.

Check the record: Both those guys have played though broken/torn fingers (this season), bruised ribs, knee injuries, shoulder injuries, food poisoning, flu/cold.

Did you read the note on top of the list: You have to be ELITE in that category. Jersey-popping and growing a beard doesn't make you elite in that category. Playing through stuff that would normally require surgery for, is. So you're right, I'm missing someone there. Wade.

[og15]

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You admit Gasol's numbers are almost identical as they were in Memphis. Except for minutes played

Just an addition, I saw it previously mentioned that Gasol's former high in FG% was 54% and now he's shooting 58%. First of all, of course it's only been about 20 games, so we can't make conclusions on that, though I think he would stay in the 55%+ range (I think). But Gasol did his 54% before as a first option, now he's a second option and scoring 2 less PPG than when he shot 54%. Naturally having the defense less focused on you usually improves your shooting percentages, that is if you're given similar oppurtunities to score in your comfort zone. I don't think it's a case where Gasol just improved because it was Kobe that he ended up playing with. Not taking away from Kobe because Kobe is one of the best guys to have draw attention away from you, but it's not like Gasol wouldn't have improved his FG% playing on another good balanced team with someone else being the first option and taking pressure off him.

Also Gasol's other numbers improving, what does that neccesarily have to do with Kobe? Gasol averages a few more assists on a much better offensive team, makes sense naturally without any other factor coming into play. His rebounds are down a little playing a little less minutes and having Odom grab 10 RPG as opposed to Darko grabbing less and missing games here and there. Makes sense too. His blocks are also up, but he was struggling with everything in the beginning on the season, I know this because for some reason I was hoping for him and Memphis to play well even though I don't care for them, but his blocks were up later in the year as a Grizzly.

What I'm saying is that Paul runs the offense and has the ball in his hand A LOT, and the Triangle Runs Kobe! And we should also understand, while Kobe may not lead to direct assists, he does lead plenty of "Hockey Assists" by drawing double-team and passing it to an open player who finds another wide-open player which is all created by Kobe's ability to draw a double-team. And when you notice a lot of the time the defense plays heavily on the side Kobe is and that creates a break-down in the defense as well!

I don't think anyone is disputing that Paul has the ball in his hands a lot, but let's also not act like Kobe can do what Paul does. Kobe cannot run a similar offense in that same role (he does it in a different role) and average assists like him and neither can he take care of the ball like him if he handled it the same way. Kobe played a similar main facilitator role his first season without Shaq (a bad season overall for the Lakers of course) with Rudy, and it was not good to watch. On the other hand, Paul can't do what Kobe does. He isn't a scoring machine, he isn't drawing the same defensive attention as scorer that Kobe is, and he can't run a similar offense playing Kobe's role.

Now let's also balance your defensive attention statement out. To say Paul does not draw defensive attention when he drives is also foolish. Also just like Kobe get's hockey assists, so does Paul, do you think everytime he (Paul) passes to someone they make the basket? Of course not. Do you think all of Paul's offensive value is just in the exact amount of points and asssits that he gets? Of course not. How come Kobe can have impact beyond the numbers and somehow Paul does not also have this impact? He does, we know he does, they both do, so that isn't really something that seperates them as players. They have their impact in different ways, but Paul scares opposing teams because he can get in the lane at will, and he can find people, but if you try to take that away he will score on you, and a good amount too. If you can make the game 5v4, the other team has no choice but to help out, and it opens up your teammates. Kobe of course has far superior scoring ability, and puts a different type of pressure on the opposition, but looking at their individual and team success, neither's method of impact has been shown to be better or worse.

Paul's team has been at full strength all year. At NO POINT has Paul played on a team that is worst in talent than Kobe's. At NO POINT has Bynum and Gasol played together and Kobe's still lead his team to the best record.

Dallas and Phoenix stuggled integrating two great players. Kobe helps Pau blend right in.

I agree, I think both teams are talented, I get annoyed by people who will put down a player on a team in order to make another player seem better. Not to be mean, but the one guy who kept saying Pau Gasol is not an All-Star , just a "former All-Star" as if to infer that he is not an All-Star caliber player.

The second part I quoted though, I'm not sure I agree with. Phoenix and Dallas made more drastic changes and also gave up bigger pieces. Yes it's always a problem giving up a starter, but there's a difference in giving up Shawn Marion or Devin Harris, guys who in many cases sway games in your favour than giving up Kwame Brown. Dallas and Phoenix brought in guys that were harder to incorporate based on their previous style of play, the Lakers did not (at least in my opinion right after the trade happened, and I'm hoping clearly backed up by how Gasol has played and fit in with the team). Phoenix brought Shaq a guy who is the opposite of what they do and were attempting to fit him in, huge difference. Dallas a team who hadn't relied on a major playmaker for a while brought a guy who is not a scorer and mainly a playmaker to their team and started trying to run and push the ball more (they had a turnover problem earlier IIRC, don't know if they still do). The Lakers on the other hand brought Gasol a guy who in terms of his game did not require them to change anything in what they do or what he does. The main process was of course the offense which is known to be difficult to learn, but of course not impossible by any means. Gasol is a big man who can pass, post up, face up, score, block a few shots and rebound, run the floor, and play in half court. There really weren't any limiting factors in terms of him fitting in.

For example, when New Jersey acquired Vince Carter in 04-05, he immediately started playing well and was averaging something like 28 PPG. The same Kidd who was able to play well with him right away, didn't adjust as quickly in Dallas? Why? Well because Carter's game fit into what NJ was doing and Kidd's was a little different from what Dallas was used to. RJ went down, and Carter played a similar role to him as a finisher and facilitator (RJ was doing that earlier in that season with Kidd also out), so there was nothing different in adding him except that he was a better shooter and passer in comparison and had a different way of attacking the defense of course (not as aggressive as RJ).

Again, this is not to say Kobe isn't good and didn't do anything in accomodating Gasol. But to make it seem like it was just due to Kobe that Gasol was able to come in and start playing well is not accurate. And then comparing his (Gasol's) ability to fit in to Shaq and Kidd who had more of an adjustment period and to imply that it makes your argument is not an accurate logical progression.

[z_from_kc]

[quote="eatyourchildren"][/quote]

Yeah, wade being carted off in a wheel chair balling his eyes out was the epitome of tough.

[eatyourchildren]

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Yeah, wade being carted off in a wheel chair balling his eyes out was the epitome of tough.

THEN MAKE YOUR OWN FREAKING LIST. You're not contributing to the thread, much like LeBron contributed nothing to the 6 games he was out due to a SPRAINED FINGER.

[G35]

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I don't think it's a case where Gasol just improved because it was Kobe that he ended up playing with. Not taking away from Kobe because Kobe is one of the best guys to have draw attention away from you, but it's not like Gasol wouldn't have improved his FG% playing on another good balanced team with someone else being the first option and taking pressure off him.

Yeah I don't think that Kobe is unique in making a talented player better but then neither are any of the other MVP candidates. I see Paul gets a lot of assists because he has the best 3pt shooter in the game on his team. Is it because he is getting Peja easier shots or is it Peja is just that good. Looking at Chandler and all of his alley oop dunks. Is that because of Paul or could Tyson get looks like that with Nash, Deron, AI or Kobe.

Didn't Bynum shoot over 60% and was a league leader in dunks before he got injured?

Any criticism that can be leveled at Kobe can be applied to any other player. Sometimes it seems Kobe can't do anything without criticism. If his teammates have good games then it's because of their own natural improvement or they are just talented players.


There is always a disclaimer when praising Kobe: "Yeah I'm not taking anything away from Kobe, he's MVP worthy but he's got good teammates." or "Kobe has good stats...just not as good as Paul's or Lebrons." or "Kobe passed too much out of the double teams, that isn't what an MVP should do in the 4th quarter."


If people weren't biased it would be clear that there isn't much difference between Paul, Kobe and Lebron. They are all putting up great numbers. Lebron is putting up the best stats imo. Paul is 2nd in statistical output. Defensively I see teams are able to exploit Paul more than Lebron and Kobe. Team success is all Kobe and Paul. That's where Paul and Kobe separate from Lebron.

I have the advantage down the stretch to Kobe because the Hornets schedule is now going to start catching up with them. They have played the least amount of road games in the NBA. 10 of their last 15 games are on the road.

@IND
@CLE
@BOS
@TOR
@ORL
@MIA (why even bother)
@MIN
@LAL
@SAC
@DAL

with home games vs BOS, GS, UTAH.

The Lakers schedule is comparatively much easier since 10 of their last 15 games are at home. Advantage is clear........

[Elway=GOAT]

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Then make your own list. That's the whole point of this exercise.

BTW, LeBron is no puss, but he's not on the level of playing through injury like AI and Kobe are.

Check the record: Both those guys have played though broken/torn fingers (this season), bruised ribs, knee injuries, shoulder injuries, food poisoning, flu/cold.

Did you read the note on top of the list: You have to be ELITE in that category. Jersey-popping and growing a beard doesn't make you elite in that category. Playing through stuff that would normally require surgery for, is. So you're right, I'm missing someone there. Wade.

It just shows they are prone to injuries. Kobe has only played 82 games once in his career.

71
79
50(the year of the strike)
66
68
80
82
65
66
80
77
67

Not exactly Stockton/Malone, and its a joke to say he is more durable than any of the other candidates.

Iverson, is another person who misses rediculous amounts of games throughout his career.

76
80
48(strike year)
70
71
60
82
48
75
72
65
67

These guys through out they're career are missing +/- 10 games a year. How the hell can you call them more durable than any other player on there list?

That being said, Chris Paul imo is the MVP to this point. Especially the last 10 games or so. I look at that roster from top to bottom, and am wondering how the hell they are in the playoff race, much less top of the west?

Especially comparing there roster to other top west teams rosters. He is a more athletic Steve Nash with better defense. He is just as good of an offensive play maker, is smart, makes guys around him better and gets his team involved. He also can take over a game with the best of them if he is needed too.

Another strong performance tonight against Houston from him. His FG is just awsome, hes a solid defender, he has it all. The only thing holding him back at all, is his size.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

Chris Paul and Lebron really made statements today winning vs. two top 5 teams and putting up their usual numbers vs. the 2nd and 3rd best defensive teams.

[z_from_kc]

LeBron has missed 18 games in his entire career.

Kobe missed 16 games in 99-00, 14 in 00-01, 17 in 03-04, and 16 in 04-05. Let's not make him out to be the man of steel.

LeBron's 6 game absence was the longest of his career BY FAR.

He's played through a ton of sprained ankles, knee tendinitis, back spasms, the flu numerous times, he broke his freakin' face in his 2nd season and was still dominating the league in a face mask. Don't even try to tell me he isn't as tough as Kobe. He plays more minutes, more games and takes a lot more punishment, yet he's never missed a significant amount of time. LBJ is the definition of durable. His first love is football because HE LIKES BEING HIT and delivering hits.

One on one in a fist fight, who you got Kobe or Bron.

Hell I saw Kobe get decked right in face by CHRIS CHILDS! Then throw a few of the girliest, off the mark punches I've ever witnessed by a grown man.

[eatyourchildren]

LeBron has missed 18 games in his entire career.

Kobe missed 16 games in 99-00, 14 in 00-01, 17 in 03-04, and 16 in 04-05. Let's not make him out to be the man of steel.

LeBron's 6 game absence was the longest of his career BY FAR.

He's played through a ton of sprained ankles, knee tendinitis, back spasms, the flu numerous times, he broke his freakin' face in his 2nd season and was still dominating the league in a face mask. Don't even try to tell me he isn't as tough as Kobe. He plays more minutes, more games and takes a lot more punishment, yet he's never missed a significant amount of time. LBJ is the definition of durable. His first love is football because HE LIKES BEING HIT and delivering hits.

One on one in a fist fight, who you got Kobe or Bron.

Hell I saw Kobe get decked right in face by CHRIS CHILDS! Then throw a few of the girliest, off the mark punches I've ever witnessed by a grown man.

First of all, what does football and fist fights have to do with this? You threw in some of the most irrelevant crap in that post I have ever seen.

Second, if he's so tough, and has played through far worse, what in the world is a sprained finger in his non-shooting hand to him anyway?

BTW, even if you put LeBron in that numbered list under Toughness/Durability, he's still not on Kobe's level. Sorry.

BTW, are LeBron fans allergic to lists or ordered arguments? Can one of you make your version of that list already? Jesus.