Caron- has a chipped bone in his left wrist

[cwb3]

I am starting wonder/worry if we will EVER see this current squad in full health, to really see what this team is capable of in its present form. When Arenas first went down, we sorta thought he would be back this year, and said to ourselves that this was good for the rest of the younger players to develop. We cheered at the early spike of increased defensive intensity and better ball movement (both of which have diminished recently). We thought that when Arenas came back, all these positive developments with the rest of the squad would bring our team to a new level. (Yeah many here cautioned that Gilbert would need to better integrate what he does best into the whole team context we saw emerging, plus to step it up on D.)

Now so many players are banged up, Gilbert may not come back this year, or will come back not in full form. If he opts out (which some say may actually work in our favor) we still have to negotiate with him and Jamison. . .its an offseason so who know's what will happen. . .

Basically what I'm saying is that I'm worried that we may never see this squad play for a good long stretch at its full strength, we may never know what we might have had.

Who knows if we will pay what it takes to keep everyone on this team. But what's worse is now EG may have to make a hard call on Arenas and/or Jamison, without a complete body of work to judge the potential with.

Its really frusterating.

[LyricalRico]

Basically what I'm saying is that I'm worried that we may never see this squad play for a good long stretch at its full strength, we may never know what we might have had.

Who knows if we will pay what it takes to keep everyone on this team. But what's worse is now EG may have to make a hard call on Arenas and/or Jamison, without a complete body of work to judge the potential with.

Its really frusterating.

And that's why I don't get the resistance to change from some. Many assume that this team will win 50+ games when healthy but that's as much of an unknown as what would happen if we traded for other players.

CCJ (maybe in this thread or maybe it was in another) made a great point about teams sometimes playing well when everyone thought they wouldn't (Philly and Houston as examples). Why everyone assumes that the only way to success is to keep this team together regardless of the cost is beyond me.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Good data, CCJ and Sev. But i think it speaks much more Caron's general ineffectiveness and fatigue over the past few games than it does him breaking a bone in his wrist.

But you do demonstrate well that Eddie has played Caron more than the norm for good players coming off injuries.

But CCJ, I do strongly disagree with you on Ernie's culpability. He needs to give EJ clear direction on which is more important, watching CB's minutes or winning.

Why can't they win without CB, too?

I remember them winning without CB earlier in the year, but having a game aganist the Lakers in which with Butler IN the lineup I thought they played much worse. They lost.

Fisher, I don't think they should think they can't win without him. I don't think CB has to play a lot of minutes in order for them to win. I don't think EG needs to quailfy why Caron's minutes should be monitored. I think Caron's long-term best interest and the team's immediate wins and losses aren't either/or.

EG can't say it's okay to lose EJ even if he says watch CBs minutes.

fishercob, you and I just differ on this one and it's cool. Where I have not feel at all is why EG would be real concerned about the record of the team aside from being in the top 8 in the East. I just can't see EG being all that disappointed in EJ because of the team's record.

[LyricalRico]

Fisher, I don't think they should think they can't win without him. I don't think CB has to play a lot of minutes in order for them to win. I don't think EG needs to quailfy why Caron's minutes should be monitored. I think Caron's long-term best interest and the team's immediate wins and losses aren't either/or.

Great point. Nobody's saying it's "all or nothing". This is one of those situations where the coach is supposed to earn his pay and figure out a way to keep his guy healthy and also keep the team winning.

Anybody can come up with the strategy to play your best players as much as possible just like it doesn't take a degree from West Point to design a brute force battle plan. It's the cunning generals that still find victory although outnumbered and it's the quality coaches who find a way to manufacture wins while being shorthanded.

But EJ can't seem to do that and what's really scary - he doesn't even seem interested in trying. He's just going to run his guys into the ground rather than see what he can do to find a balance.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I am starting wonder/worry if we will EVER see this current squad in full health, to really see what this team is capable of in its present form. When Arenas first went down, we sorta thought he would be back this year, and said to ourselves that this was good for the rest of the younger players to develop. We cheered at the early spike of increased defensive intensity and better ball movement (both of which have diminished recently). We thought that when Arenas came back, all these positive developments with the rest of the squad would bring our team to a new level. (Yeah many here cautioned that Gilbert would need to better integrate what he does best into the whole team context we saw emerging, plus to step it up on D.)

Now so many players are banged up, Gilbert may not come back this year, or will come back not in full form. If he opts out (which some say may actually work in our favor) we still have to negotiate with him and Jamison. . .its an offseason so who know's what will happen. . .

Basically what I'm saying is that I'm worried that we may never see this squad play for a good long stretch at its full strength, we may never know what we might have had.

Who knows if we will pay what it takes to keep everyone on this team. But what's worse is now EG may have to make a hard call on Arenas and/or Jamison, without a complete body of work to judge the potential with.

Its really frusterating.

cwb3, the good news is there are some real smart dudes like nate who see the end game money-wise when most of us are evaluating the middle game.

EG is a guy who's so far a discerning buyer. When he's apparently paid too much, over time the players he's paid for have proven to be serviceable if not a total steal at the price he paid (like Gil, Caron, and DeShawn)

cwb3, the injuries have been frustrating. I think whoever goes isn't part of the success that's going to come down the road. I'm thinking the loyal ones with faith ithe the Wizards organizaton from Abe on down will not take off unless they get lowballed, and EG isn't the sort to lowball anybody.

The Wizards will be a dangerous, dangerous team seasons down the road if they stay together because they're not always going to be devastated by injury.

The injuries are unfortunate but I already see this is a real good team and I know a smart guy like EG does, too. And for all the criticism of EJ just wait til the guy has a healthy team.

[Severn Hoos]

Sac-town. Another non-contender. The question to me is: in teams battling for playoff position, how quickly is the all-star re-integrated? I expect you'd see that recovery time shaved significantly, especially for teams suffering a loss streak in that players absence. Right or wrong.

Well, there you have it. Bosh comes back from injury, plays 23 minutes in his first game. Case closed, chalk one up for the Sevster. Anyone else want a piece of this?



[size=0]Full disclosure: The Raptors were playng the Heat, a team that couldn't even score the speed limit, won by 42 points and could have won with a team of Girl Scots playing. But the facts is the facts, so I'm goin' with 'em.[/size]

[hands11]

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doc, I love ya, but I think you're reaching here. Believe it or not, but San Antonio is closer to being out of the playoffs than Toronto is. (You're correct about Popp not being on the hot seat - but then, mightn't it be a good idea to watch and learn from those coaches who are the best in the league for a reason?) SA and Boston both know that position is the real battle, not just amking the playoffs. And at the time of KG's comeback, Boston's lead got as small as 2 games. They had plenty to play for.

And Chicago has been hanging around the fringes of the playoffs ever since Skiles was canned. Interim Coach What's-his-name is on a much hotter seat than our EJ is.

Point is, there's a pattern here that NBA coaches seem to employ with returning players. I don't think it can be explained away by circumstance or comfortable coaches or playoff position. It's based on prudence and long-term thinking. I'm not blaming EJ for playing CB so many minutes, but I am saying that it's short-sighted IMO.

Well I'm glad to see some stats to support one of my long held complaints.

"prudence and long-term thinking"

Not exactly 2 words that pop into mind when describing EJ but he did an ok job last night with the line ups.

Seeing what he is did with CB is no different then he has done with AJ, GA, AD, etc in the past. As for long term thinking. If you add the advantages of getting the younger players more minutes earlier in the year with resting injuries players I think we would have been healthier, with more wins and better developed players.

[JAR69]

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Well, there you have it. Bosh comes back from injury, plays 23 minutes in his first game. Case closed, chalk one up for the Sevster. Anyone else want a piece of this?



[size=0]Full disclosure: The Raptors were playng the Heat, a team that couldn't even score the speed limit, won by 42 points and could have won with a team of Girl Scots playing. But the facts is the facts, so I'm goin' with 'em.[/size]

Sev - you set the size on the "full disclosure" that the Raptors won by 42 over the Heat (and were leading by 32 at halftime) so small that it is unreadable, at least on my browser. I happen to agree with your broader point, but Bosh's return isn't a fair example.

[Severn Hoos]

D'oh! My bad....

Actually, that's pretty good for a legal disclaimer, don't you think?

And why let little things like reason and "fairness" get in the way of a good argument?

[Pass_The_Sticks]

Butler and Jamison shouldn't even play tomorrow against the Heat.

[ihatewes]

What are we talking about? Do people really think that a chipped bone in his wrist has anything to do with how many minutes CB played? It'd be one think if he pulled a hammie or something by playing too much after an injury, but chipping a bone could happen even if he only played one minute.

[queridiculo]

I've had a broken wrist with a chipped bone on two occasions and it's really not that bad of any injury to recover from. It's painful and range of motion is limitted but it's not something that should keep Caron from being effective, espescially not since it's on his non-shooting hand.

The first week is going to be the worst, but it will gradually get better from there on out. Come playoff time it really shouldn't bother him that much anymore.

[LyricalRico]

What are we talking about? Do people really think that a chipped bone in his wrist has anything to do with how many minutes CB played? It'd be one think if he pulled a hammie or something by playing too much after an injury, but chipping a bone could happen even if he only played one minute.

I brought up the correlation between his increase in minutes and his increase in games missed. I guess I'd rather believe it's EJ's fault than think that we've got another Larry Hughes on our hands.

[JAR69]

D'oh! My bad....

Actually, that's pretty good for a legal disclaimer, don't you think?

And why let little things like reason and "fairness" get in the way of a good argument?

As a lawyer, I'd say those are both excellent points.

[doclinkin]

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Well, there you have it. Bosh comes back from injury, plays 23 minutes in his first game. Case closed, chalk one up for the Sevster. Anyone else want a piece of this?



[size=0]Full disclosure: The Raptors were playng the Heat, a team that couldn't even score the speed limit, won by 42 points and could have won with a team of Girl Scots playing. But the facts is the facts, so I'm goin' with 'em.[/size]

Heh, my man... Funny. Now see I was all riled up (so to speak) to mention the opponent they played and blow out and all, but, right... [size=0]Ya got me, East Coast Vigilante Forum style. The Zero Point Font Conspiracy strikes again.[/size]

Let me get back to your actual point for a sec since I missed it the first time around:

doc, I love ya, but I think you're reaching here. Believe it or not, but San Antonio is closer to being out of the playoffs than Toronto is. (You're correct about Popp not being on the hot seat - but then, mightn't it be a good idea to watch and learn from those coaches who are the best in the league for a reason?) SA and Boston both know that position is the real battle, not just amking the playoffs. And at the time of KG's comeback, Boston's lead got as small as 2 games. They had plenty to play for.

And Chicago has been hanging around the fringes of the playoffs ever since Skiles was canned. Interim Coach What's-his-name is on a much hotter seat than our EJ is.

Point is, there's a pattern here that NBA coaches seem to employ with returning players. I don't think it can be explained away by circumstance or comfortable coaches or playoff position. It's based on prudence and long-term thinking. I'm not blaming EJ for playing CB so many minutes, but I am saying that it's short-sighted IMO.

For what it's worth I agree with you: it's short-sighted.

I'm saying 'short-sight' is how EJ's got to see right now. It's been that way since his GM refused to re-up his assistants. It's been that way since his boss brought in a guy to look over his shoulder and 'teach' him defense. Since Thibodeaux tippeytoed outta town on the pretense that the tension in the situation was untenable.

And as far as bringing guys back slow from injury, it's been that way since his bench has been horrible in past years, and immature this year. Most young teams have no expectations of success. If you're young it's usually because you have had to re-stock with draft picks a few years in a row. Most teams land one draft pick, maybe keep a 2nd rounder if they don't cut him in camp, send him overseas, or demote 'em to the D-league.

On good teams, with expectations of winning, most times these rooks see PT in blow-outs or meaningless games. On bad teams, they play all the time, but probably learn bad habits, make a ton of mistakes that the coach has no alternative but to live with. On most teams there are end-of-bench guys who often DNP-CD.

But here: we've been playing the last guy on the bench every game for the second half of the year. As soon as the guys on the squad knew one r two plays in attack mode and understood the principles of the defense, they played. The +/- stats for Caron and Jamison were both top 10 league wide for a reason. Pencil in all the line-ups you want based on player footsize or jockstrap weight, but the numbers suggest the team suffered when the rooks and young pups were out there. The young talent wasn't yet seasoned enough to carry the weight, they played because there was no alternative.

Now? Now jobs and the future are on the line based on whether or not the team makes it to the post season, and how deep they play. Not for Eddie, he got his extension, he gets paid if he's cut, but for the late-night filmstudy guys who watch his back, the guys he's on the road with, eating dinner, talking about life, flying with, etc for long months out of the year.

His obligation with 15 games left, is to win. His trust is rightly placed most heavily int he guys who have shown they can do it-- who want to do it, who show up early for practice, who don't need a curfew, who play hurt, who demand the minutes, who reward his trust in them.

First game back: Caron was hitting every thing in the first half. In the second half: gassing a little, but still useful as a decoy. The team fed off his presence, and ultimately the team won. At this point, anytime you can say that-- 'The team won'-- the ends justify the means. The coaching staff has been keeping an eye on the minutes (CB3: 35 minutes in Orlando) but really everybody is hurt right now, if a guy says he can go, hey he can go.

Next year, if there's a next year, is a different story. The ex-rooks have gametime success and practice training and will be less of a liability in the first half of the year so the coach can experiment a bit more and risk extra PT for a young guy. Rest the allstars. The way he can rest Brendan... It's just a rare thing to have so few veterans on the roster and so much youth on the bench. Even with all that talent.

What I'm saying. Piece of you? Anytime. Happy for you to give me a piece of your mind. Such as it is.

[doclinkin]

What are we talking about? Do people really think that a chipped bone in his wrist has anything to do with how many minutes CB played? It'd be one think if he pulled a hammie or something by playing too much after an injury, but chipping a bone could happen even if he only played one minute.

Well, in fairness there's an argument here. Caron banged the wrist catching himself after a foul and a fall. Fatigue and off timing can throw off your reflexes and set you up for a fall you might have avoided at full health, or in compensating for an injury you might land awkwardly on your off side, or throw off your balance in the first place.

[Objective]

he's called tough juice because he's made of paper? he can't stay healthy to save his life. caron, while talented, is more talk than is good for him. whatever, this season's over. we suck. there's no chemistry on this team. stevenson is a bust and a loud mouth. disgusting.

[LyricalRico]

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Well, in fairness there's an argument here. Caron banged the wrist catching himself after a foul and a fall. Fatigue and off timing can throw off your reflexes and set you up for a fall you might have avoided at full health, or in compensating for an injury you might land awkwardly on your off side, or throw off your balance in the first place.

So basically you're saying it's all EJ's fault!

[Donkey McDonkerton]

he's called tough juice because he's made of paper? he can't stay healthy to save his life. caron, while talented, is more talk than is good for him. whatever, this season's over. we suck. there's no chemistry on this team. stevenson is a bust and a loud mouth. disgusting.

Why dont you try to be a little more objective!

[queridiculo]

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Why dont you try to be a little more objective!

Seriously, this has to be the second account of a regular poster that loves himself some irony.