MVP Watch 2008... Part 3.

[TheKingOfVa360]

I agree ^^^

It's been a two horse race for the last 3 or 4 months.

[Chris435]

I don't understand what the Lakers vs Dallas discussion is all about. Kobe scored 29 points on 51% shooting with 7 assists and they won the game. That's an MVP performance.

Scoring 52 points on Dallas is also an MVP performance, but to expect this every game from Kobe is ridiculous.

I'm surprised people are actually criticizing Kobe again. This shorthanded Lakers team was blowing out Dallas and I was expecting the Lakers to lose. Dallas should not have been in the position to make a comeback in the 4th quarter... especially with Dirk and Jason Kidd on the same team.

In my opinion, this game simply indicates that Dallas cannot win with the team they have now and that they aren't the formidable opponent I thought they would be against elite teams.

At this point, I believe the MVP race is between Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, and possibly Kevin Garnett. Lebron and his team are losing too many games at this point.

[semi-sentient]

I was disappointed in LeBron when he wasn't aggressive in Orlando as the game got away from us, I was disappointed in Kobe in Dallas when he wasn't more aggressive as the game almost slipped away from the Lakers as well as the other two games I mentioned.

There is nothing to be disappointed about. Radman had the hot hand, and in situations like that, you want to get the ball in his hands. There was no real need for Kobe to take over because other guys were hitting their shots.

The game almost slipped away because Dallas started shooting lights out from midway through the 3rd until the end of the 4th. Dirk and Terry were on fire, so that is pretty much why they got back into the game, coupled with the fact that Kobe going out of the game (as well as Radmanovic) is what allowed the Mavs to start their run late in the 3rd, which gave them a ton of momentum going into the 4th.

Your making a really big deal about nothing here.

[semi-sentient]

Some arguments you could use pro Kobe when comparing his MVP bid against Paul.

1. Schedule.
Lakers have had the 4th toughest schedule up to date, while Hornets are sitting in 26th.

2. Supporting cast.
This might sound weird, because the Lakers have the more talent at full strength. Sure playing with Bynum, Odom and Gasol is a nice thing. Only problem is that Kobe has never played a game with all 3. Hornets have been relatively injury free all season long, and that's a big issue. Counting injuries I'd say Paul has had more help this season.

3. Injuries.
Not talking about injuries to supporting cast here. Kobe could have thrown in the towel a long time ago to rest his injuries. He's playing with a fractured finger after all and performing great.

4. Clutch play.
Paul is having a terrific season, but Kobe has been better in clutch situations (LeBron is the only player that can make a great case against Kobe this year as far as clutch play goes).

5. +/- seperation from teammates.
This might also seem like a weird statement as Gasol's +/- stats are better than anyone on the Hornets. Issue is that Gasol has played as much for the Lakers as Ryan Bowen has for the Hornets. No one on the Lakers except Kobe has a +5.0 or better while playing over 40% of team minutes. 3 other players than Paul do on the Hornets.

6. Defense.
Again, Paul is having a great defensive season. I think he deserves to make the 2nd team, but Kobe has been better.


Adding them up, I don't think Kobe's argument against Paul is weak at all.

Good points, particularly 2 and 3. Those points are the primary reason that Kobe takes the tie-breaker if these teams end up with identical records.

[eatyourchildren]

Good post TKB. Gotta love NUMBERED, STRUCTURED arguments.

I'd like to add another one:

8. Kobe is a better/more complete/more versatile player than Chris Paul.

[Texas Longhorns]

McGrady is now easily thrown out of the top 5.

[Milan24]

^^^ Was he seriously ever in the top 5? IMO, he never was.
My top 5 have been:
Kobe
Paul
Lebron
KG
Howard

[eatyourchildren]

-= original quote snipped =-



Believe me, im well aware of it. The guy has a cold or the stomach flu, we are all reminded of it. But you didnt say this season, you said Kobe and Iverson are ironmen look it up, and I did. I posted the stats, they have both missed significant time due to injuries. You listed Kobe as the only player playing through injuries to suit your argument. All these guys have injuries at this point in the year, all are playing well too. Its a lame argument.

As I've said before, Kobe and Iverson have separated themselves from the pack this year by playing through serious finger injuries.

"Iverson, who suffered a non-displacement fracture to the tip of his right ring finger last Friday vs the Spurs, doesn

[eatyourchildren]

LBJ4MVP:

Here's a funny play-by-play of that last Dallas-LA game:
http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/03 ... ent-517872

Notice everything in the 4th quarter:
-Lakers turnovers. Kobe can't take over if the ball isn't in his hand. You could argue that Kobe should start taking the ball out and up the floor every possession. That was last year. This year, LeBron has taken over that role.
-VladRad HOT: He made 3 of 4 3pters in that quarter alone.
-Kobe DID affect the game: had a crucial mini-floater on the baseline, and assisted VladRad and Lamar on some buckets and FT's.
-Later on, Kobe had a mini-injury after slamming his hip onto the floor.

Kobe had two great 2-man games going with VladRad and Lamar. Those were the possessions where the Lakers scored. Why do you insist that his continuation of those things was detrimental of his MVP candidacy?

I seriously think that Cavs fans have been completely brainwashed by ESPN to think that "taking over a game" consists of one thing: dominating possessions and scoring.

There's a lot more to that. Look at the previous Mavs-Lakers game. Kobe's best play in that entire 4th quarter was NOT a shot.

[SA37]

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What's laughable is your logic.

If voters have 3 equally meritorious candidates, then the tie-breaker ought to go to the player who has been playing at a MVP level for the longest throughout his career.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and the fact that you would call it laughable is, well, laughable.

How does that make any sense at all?

The MVP award is based on a player's accomplishments for that given season. Nothing more, nothing less.

The difference needs to decided based on what has transpired this season.

[conleyorbust]

Any of these guys deserve it based on the amorphous and ambiguous guidelines of the award.

Yes, Kobe has an incredibly deep team and has had a consistent low post threat all season and the greatest coach of all time. He shouldn't be punished for that. He's played very well and his team is at the top of the west.

Yes, Bron plays in the east and doesn't have a great supporting cast, if he breaks 50 he shouldn't be punished for that. He's had a season for the ages.

Paul... well he doesn't have the hype of the other two and probably doesn't have half the name rec of Kobe so he probably won't win it regardless. Still, he's been real too.

Personally, I think KG should win the award for being the focal point and emotional leader of the best team (by a LOT) in the league and the cornerstone of a ridiculously good defense.

[SA37]

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He's shooting one of the best FG and 3PT % of his career; his defense is on a level comparable to 02/03 (you also have the steals to back it up if you're a stat fan). He's also rebounding the most since 02/03 and has one of the best seasons assist-wise (although he's not the sole ball-handler anymore). Of course these are not improvements in numbers like Paul's had, but you can argue that this is one of, if not the best versions of Bryant we've seen.

That's just the thing: if the MVP race is as close as it is this year, and both guys have teams with comparable records (in this case, both had much worse records last year, so the improvement from one year to the next is also equal), something has to separate them.

So the question is, do you pick the guy who is improved almost every statistical category from the year before or a guy who has marginally improved a couple of his statistics?

It's also a bit unfair to not attribute Fisher's season to Bryant's help... a guy who is a 40% career shooter, was at +47 until he got into a slump and is still at his best at 43%. Did you happen to ask yourself why? Because he gets almost only open looks. So does Sasha (okay here, I'll give you the natural improvement thesis).

The guy is having a solid year, but let's be honest here: there is nothing particularly special about this season for Fisher. He had a similar (in my opinion, better) year 2 years ago in Golden St.

I'll repeat:this is not an average year by Kobe's standards. I've watched over 50 Lakers games this year and this I've not seen him this relaxed in a long time and he's showing it with the way he plays. I won't even go into the debate of how Paul has made West an All-Star, Peja into the 3-pt threat he once was and Chandler into a legit center and how Kobe seemingly has done nothing, because his teammates simply improved on their own, while he's taking a seat back. That is absurd, good sir .

cheers

It is an average year for Kobe:

Bryant ('04-'05-06'-07')

31.8ppg 5.3apg 5.6rpg .5bpg 1.5spg 45.0 fg% 34.4 3pt% 84.6 ft%

Bryant 07'-08'

28.2ppg 5.3apg 6.1rpg .5bpg 2.0spg 46.3 fg% 35.3 3pt% 84.1 ft%

Unless you have a very different definition of average from the rest of the world, this is an average season for Kobe.

I've never made any of those arguments in favor of Paul. What I have said is that he has improved his individual numbers and it has coincided with his team's rise.

David West and Peja are good players without Paul. Chandler's rebounding and defense have nothing to do with Paul. I've never said anything to the contrary and for you to suggest that I have is absurd, especially when I've constantly made my case for Paul based on what Paul himself has done.

But, for the record, Paul has made or assisted on half of his team's baskets this year.

[semi-sentient]

That's just the thing: if the MVP race is as close as it is this year, and both guys have teams with comparable records (in this case, both had much worse records last year, so the improvement from one year to the next is also equal), something has to separate them.

Some arguments you could use pro Kobe when comparing his MVP bid against Paul.

1. Schedule.
Lakers have had the 4th toughest schedule up to date, while Hornets are sitting in 26th.

2. Supporting cast.
This might sound weird, because the Lakers have the more talent at full strength. Sure playing with Bynum, Odom and Gasol is a nice thing. Only problem is that Kobe has never played a game with all 3. Hornets have been relatively injury free all season long, and that's a big issue. Counting injuries I'd say Paul has had more help this season.

3. Injuries.
Not talking about injuries to supporting cast here. Kobe could have thrown in the towel a long time ago to rest his injuries. He's playing with a fractured finger after all and performing great.

4. Clutch play.
Paul is having a terrific season, but Kobe has been better in clutch situations (LeBron is the only player that can make a great case against Kobe this year as far as clutch play goes).

5. +/- seperation from teammates.
This might also seem like a weird statement as Gasol's +/- stats are better than anyone on the Hornets. Issue is that Gasol has played as much for the Lakers as Ryan Bowen has for the Hornets. No one on the Lakers except Kobe has a +5.0 or better while playing over 40% of team minutes. 3 other players than Paul do on the Hornets.

6. Defense.
Again, Paul is having a great defensive season. I think he deserves to make the 2nd team, but Kobe has been better.


Adding them up, I don't think Kobe's argument against Paul is weak at all.

Edit: Ooops, edited wrong post.

[SA37]

-= original quote snipped =-

Schedule

Both teams play in the West and the Hornets play in the toughest division in the entire league. I have no idea where the numbers came from, but given the Hornets play San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston 12 times in total, I don't see how the Lakers can have a tougher schedule. If anything, this sounds like advantage Paul.

Supporting cast

Nah. The only player to miss significant time this year for L.A. (who actually plays significant minutes) is Bynum. Gasol will have missed a handful of games when he comes back, but I'll equate that to David West missing games for the Hornets. And, the Lakers have a deeper team than the Hornets do. This argument holds very little weight in my estimation.

Injuries

They're part of the game.

Clutch Play

The Lakers are 3-7 in games decided by 3 or less. They are 11-8 in games decided by 5 points or less.

The Hornets are 11-3 in games decided by 5 points or less. They are 6-2 in games decided by 3 or less.

+/-

I don't know enough about the stat.

Defense

I can't see there being a huge difference here. Kobe is a good defender and so is Paul. I am not going to argue who is better because it is very difficult to prove. It is all about watching games.


Paul's improvement this season trumps these arguments, even if you agree with TKB. (I obviously don't.) To me these arguments are grasping at straws.

[eatyourchildren]

SA37:

1. The Tiebreaker is the numbers increase in CP? I don't agree with that. That would be penalizing Kobe for sustained excellence. The tiebreaker, if anything, should be who is the better, more complete player between the two. The answer is obvious: Kobe.

2. Schedule: By the end of the year, the schedule will have been the same, you're right. But you misread the argument, which is that at this point in time, the Lakers to-date have had a much harder schedule than NO and has posted a similar record. That gives the edge to the Lakers up to this point in time.

3. Clutch Play: TKB argued about clutch play between the two players, and you went and argued clutch play between the two teams. So, that's kind of non sequitur.

4. Defense: Kobe is an elite defender, and Paul is a decent-to-good defender. That's a big difference. It's really not that difficult to prove. Kobe defends 3 positions in an elite fashion. Paul defends one position well. This is no contest. Kobe is a lock for ALL NBA D 1st Team. The same cannot be said about Paul.

5. Like you said, we're looking only at the season of 2008, so why should improvement matter? If you want to argue improvement, there's another award for that: Most Improved Player. That line of reasoning also ignores Kobe's improvement in categories not captured by statistics.

What are the straw arguments? I see none.

[eatyourchildren]

I think it's kind of funny that its Kobe v. Paul, or Kobe v. LeBron

Why isn't there any CP v. LeBron? It's like CP fans and LeBron fans are okay with the other guy winning, but Kobe winning? Unforgivable!!!

There's a very deep, underlying sentiment here that anybody BUT Kobe should win it.

In what category has Kobe not proven himself this year? His stat's aren't good enough?
LeBron (Cleveland): I average 2 more points, 3 more rebounds, and 2 more assists than Kobe

[semi-sentient]

Schedule

Both teams play in the West and the Hornets play in the toughest division in the entire league. I have no idea where the numbers came from, but given the Hornets play San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston 12 times in total, I don't see how the Lakers can have a tougher schedule. If anything, this sounds like advantage Paul.

The numbers are from the combined SOS (Strength of Schedule), and the reason the Hornets are lower than the Lakers is because they still have to play Boston twice, Cleveland, Toronto, Orlando, GS, Utah, Lakers, and Dallas. At the end of the season, the Hornets will have had a slightly higher SOS, but up to this point, the Lakers have had the tougher schedule.

Supporting cast

Nah. The only player to miss significant time this year for L.A. (who actually plays significant minutes) is Bynum. Gasol will have missed a handful of games when he comes back, but I'll equate that to David West missing games for the Hornets. And, the Lakers have a deeper team than the Hornets do. This argument holds very little weight in my estimation.

Gasol hasn't been with the Lakers the entire season, and I don't think anyone is really including him. Besides that, you are overlooking the following players who have also missed considerable time:

Mihm - 45
Ariza - 33
Radman - 17
Vujacic - 10
Walton - 6
Odom - 5

To you it may hold very little weight, but the reality is that had the Lakers not been hit with heavy injury, their record would actually be much better, and then there would be no question who the MVP is.

Defense

I can't see there being a huge difference here. Kobe is a good defender and so is Paul. I am not going to argue who is better because it is very difficult to prove. It is all about watching games.

And in watching the games it's pretty clear who the better defender is.

Paul's improvement this season trumps these arguments, even if you agree with TKB. (I obviously don't.) To me these arguments are grasping at straws.

If his improvements are what you judge him on, then perhaps you should be lobbying for Paul to get the MIP award, since that would make more sense. Improvement from one season to the next has little or no impact on the MVP award.

[Big Bird]

Come on, SA37... scoring is the only category that's gone down. You might want to check some games, it's not really hard to see why. Bryant plays less minutes (the last time he's played under 40, was in 03/04) and sits out a great deal of 4th quarters because the job is done. He doesn't need to score 40 for a whole month, or +50 for 4 games to get wins. If scoring is the thing that makes this an average year for him, then yes, I agree. By the way, his eFG% is the highest it's ever been in his career (this being the second year above .500) and his TS% is 0.003 lower than last year. But really, like eatyourchildren said, Paul can get the MIP for the improvements he's made for all I care. Dirk (for instance, I don't have the time to go look at 15 other candidates, you can do that on your own) had lower numbers last year than in 05/06, so I would hardly say that improvement (in stats mind you; because I believe that Kobe's game has improved regardless) plays a huge role in naming a player the MVP.

And as far as the "But, for the record, Paul has made or assisted on half of his team's baskets this year." goes. Yeah, he's the point guard you know... that's not Bryant's role and he still is the 21st in the league. We can also look at the roster in terms of apg:

NOR:
Paul - 11.3
Pargo - 2.4
West - 2.3
Jackson - 1.7
Peja - 1.3
Chandler - 1.1

LAL:
Bryant - 5.3
Gasol - 3.4
Odom - 3.3
Walton - 3.0
Fisher - 2.9
Farmar - 2.7
Radman - 1.7
Bynum - 1.7
Turiaf - 1.5
Ariza - 1.5

The Lakers as a whole average 23.79 apg, the Hornets 21.61 apg. I know you probably already knew that, I just thought it was appropriate to point out that Bryant plays in a completely different system. Just because he doesn't rack up 10 apg (again I don't think he should since he's the SG), doesn't mean his game this year isn't helping his teammates improve on court and that he is also one of the factors for their increased production (I mean it's not like this is the first year we're seeing players having career years next to him; *khm, Smush, Kwame, Cook, khm*).

For the last part:"David West and Peja are good players without Paul. Chandler's rebounding and defense have nothing to do with Paul. I've never said anything to the contrary and for you to suggest that I have is absurd, especially when I've constantly made my case for Paul based on what Paul himself has done."

I'm sorry, I must've mixed up usernames. It's good that I didn't go into that then, since I would've been adressing the wrong poster. Again, I apologise.

cheers

[INKtastic]

Gasol hasn't been with the Lakers the entire season, and I don't think anyone is really including him. Besides that, you are overlooking the following players who have also missed considerable time:

Mihm - 45
Ariza - 33
Radman - 17
Vujacic - 10
Walton - 6
Odom - 5

To you it may hold very little weight, but the reality is that had the Lakers not been hit with heavy injury, their record would actually be much better, and then there would be no question who the MVP is.

But not as hard as the cavs, who, without the injuries and holdouts would have a much better record and then there would be no question who the MVP is. The next game cleveland plays with their whole roster available will be their first of the season. And that's still about 2 weeks off if nobody gets hurt in the mean time.

[Andrew Bynasty]

I think it's kind of funny that its Kobe v. Paul, or Kobe v. LeBron

Why isn't there any CP v. LeBron? It's like CP fans and LeBron fans are okay with the other guy winning, but Kobe winning? Unforgivable!!!

There's a very deep, underlying sentiment here that anybody BUT Kobe should win it.

Completely agree. You never see pro-CP3 guys arguing against pro-LeBron guys... Its always "Anyone but Kobe should win it..." (Its been KG, T-Mac, CP3, LeBron, it always changes to anyone except god-forbid Kobe)