MVP Watch 2008... Part4.

[eatyourchildren]

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Im not rebutting anything. I guess you're too wrapped up in Kobe Kool aid to understand that Mr Chris Paul is the standard right now.

That must be it

[KDRE]

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That must be it

Down to one liners now eh eaty?

Its alright, if other people like say "the voters" don't believe what you do.

On the bright side, if CP3 wins, you can arcive all of your posts and paste it on clublakers to wail over on how your guy got robbed.

[eatyourchildren]

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Down to one liners now eh eaty?

Its alright, if other people like say "the voters" don't believe what you do.

On the bright side, if CP3 wins, you can arcive all of your posts and paste it on clublakers to wail over on how your guy got robbed.

Can you show me what "the voters" think so that I can know how wrong I am?

[CB4MiamiHeat]

The injury argument is so bad..

As of Mid-February, you have a team that has a top 5 bench (Lakers) and a team that has a bottom 5 bench (New Orleans).
http://82games.com/benchstats.htm

Bynum went down right? A week later the guy was replaced by Pau Gasol, who put up 18pts-8reb-58% in his absence....(18-3 record).

Pau Gasol goes down? He gets replaced by Odom..who put up 18pts-12rebs-50%fg-1.8blks.

Turiaf was also forced to come in as a starter. His numbers as a starter are 12-6-2.2blocks.

Now what if David West was out for a while? His replacement is not a Lamar Odom, not a Paul Gasol, not even a Ronny Turiaf. Ryan Bowen would be his replacement. And in the 4 games that he did replace West, his averages were 4points and 4rebounds. So yea its not the same situation. What if Chandler was out for a while? Hilton Armstrong is his replacement?(who?) Peja? freaking Rasual Butler.

The biggest thing the Lakers lost with injuries is having the luxury of being a deep team, cause bench players had to step in as starters. If healthy they'd probably be battling the Celtics for the best record. But then again, Chris Paul never had the luxury of having a deep team and a great bench so all it did was even it out.
.

[KDRE]

Posted something a couple pages back for Jules but you look yourself instead of relying on your own self made criteria and what you think.

All of the lobbying you're doing and Kobe's not running away in the rankings and you still don't get it.

[KDRE]

Posted something a couple pages back for Jules but you look yourself instead of relying on your own self made criteria and what you think.

All of the lobbying you're doing and Kobe's not running away in the rankings and you still don't get it.

[Jules Winnfield]

Seems to me the only 'legitimate' card Laker fans have to play is the injury one. Let me ask this...why do I keep hearing "the Lakers have managed to stay atop the west with major injuries to Bynum AND Gasol?"
Didn't Mitch Kupchak say publically that they didn't even pursue Gasol until Bynum got hurt? So with that, if Bynum doesn't get hurt, they don't even have Gasol in the first place. All of the other Laker injuries have had minimal impact at best. Don't give me the "we haven't had Trevor freaking Ariza or the mighty Chris Mihm" this year.

Well looks like your claim was grossly inaccurate

Kupchak told the group that his first contact with the Grizzlies was in February of 2007 around the All-Star Break. He had checked in with then President of Basketball Operations Jerry West about Gasol's availability. While nothing came of the initial discussion, the seed was sown.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=8119

[B-Scott]

Kobe needs to play like he did last night on a more consistent basis. He played a great all around game and was very efficient.

He can't go from last night and then come back tomorrow and shoot 8-25 from the field.

Chris Paul is shooting close to 50% for the season

[Jules Winnfield]

Kobe needs to play like he did last night on a more consistent basis. He played a great all around game and was very efficient.

He can't go from last night and then come back tomorrow and shoot 8-25 from the field.

Chris Paul is shooting close to 50% for the season

yet their TS% are almost identical.

Whowouldathunkit?

[eatyourchildren]

The injury argument is so bad..

As of Mid-February, you have a team that has a top 5 bench (Lakers) and a team that has a bottom 5 bench (New Orleans).
http://82games.com/benchstats.htm

Bynum went down right? A week later the guy was replaced by Pau Gasol, who put up 18pts-8reb-58% in his absence....(18-3 record).

Pau Gasol goes down? He gets replaced by Odom..who put up 18pts-12rebs-50%fg-1.8blks.

Turiaf was also forced to come in as a starter. His numbers as a starter are 12-6-2.2blocks.

Now what if David West was out for a while? His replacement is not a Lamar Odom, not a Paul Gasol, not even a Ronny Turiaf. Ryan Bowen would be his replacement. And in the 4 games that he did replace West, his averages were 4points and 4rebounds. So yea its not the same situation. What if Chandler was out for a while? Hilton Armstrong is his replacement?(who?) Peja? freaking Rasual Butler.

The biggest thing the Lakers lost with injuries is having the luxury of being a deep team, cause bench players had to step in as starters. If healthy they'd probably be battling the Celtics for the best record. But then again, Chris Paul never had the luxury of having a deep team and a great bench so all it did was even it out.
.

Don't you see how problematic your argument is?

1. The first problem is that you're assuming that you can keep changing your frontcourt around without detriment. That's a pretty wild assumption.
Kobe has played with, on average, a new center/pf every month of this regular season. Can you deny how detrimental that is, especially given the complexities of the triangle?

Kwame Brown, DJ Mbenga, and PF Turiaf have both taken turns at Center this season. Let that simmer a bit. For some reason, I don't see CP throwing 92 alley-oops to those guys. But that's just me.

2. The second problem is your argument about depth. Looking at the rosters, where do we have depth? If you're being objective at all about this, our depth is in the backcourt and SF position: Vladrad, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Ariza (injured). These are NOT guys that you can plug into the C or PF positions.

Which means that the deep bench you are talking about has only Ronny Turiaf and DJ Mbenga (DJ Mbenga!) available to plug into the C spot, with Mihm out for most of the season. And LO stays are the PF spot, even though he is realistically a tweener SF/PF.

Fact is, our deep bench is NOT deep in the area where our injuries are hitting the hardest. What good is having 5 great backup backcourt guys if your C goes out?

3. The third problem in your argument is that you're portraying the Lakers as having only lost the luxury of depth with our injuries, and using that as somehow being on the same level of CP's healthy team.

I mean--really? Lakers minus a frontcourt is basically the same as CP's team? That either horribly underrates CP's squad or horribly overrates Kobe's supporting cast. The fact is, CP hasn't had to deal with injuries to his starting line-up all season. He hasn't had to reach deep into his bench, at all, for any position. Period.

[eatyourchildren]

Posted something a couple pages back for Jules but you look yourself instead of relying on your own self made criteria and what you think.

All of the lobbying you're doing and Kobe's not running away in the rankings and you still don't get it.

So USA Today's MVP Ranking = "the voters"

Haha, ok.

BTW, this thread is about who we think should be the MVP and why. Not who you think the voters are going to choose.

[cftjk]

The second problem is your argument about depth. Looking at the rosters, where do we have depth? If you're being objective at all about this, our depth is in the backcourt and SF position: Vladrad, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Ariza (injured). These are NOT guys that you can plug into the C or PF positions.

benches

Hornets: 24.3 pts, 11 reb, 5 ast, 2.2 stl, 1.4 blk, +/- 103

Lakers: 34 pts, 14.3 reb, 8.1 ast 3.3 stl 1.8 blk +/- 383

[eatyourchildren]

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benches

Hornets: 24.3 pts, 11 reb, 5 ast, 2.2 stl, 1.4 blk, +/- 103

Lakers: 34 pts, 14.3 reb, 8.1 ast 3.3 stl 1.8 blk +/- 383

How does this help? Both sides have already acknowledged that the as a whole, Lakers bench > Hornets bench.

But we know that Lakers bench < Hornets starters, which is basically the case when Gasol and Bynum are out.

That also ignores the point that the Lakers' bench at C consists of Mihm (injured), Turiaf (a PF), and DJ Mbenga (...)

Woohoo, Lakers bench gets more rebounds.
1. Do they rebound more than Hornets' starters?
2. Can you put any of them in the C position?

[CB4MiamiHeat]

youre so focused on the injury angle, as if injuries is the only thing that can affect team record?...
You dot think having a top 5 bench and a bottom 5 bench can be a big difference in wins and losses?

Youre focused on consistent lineups, you fail to look at the consistency of the actual candidates?

You think of injuries and you automatically blame the Lakers fall off on that, when in fact the Lakers biggest problem lately has been perimeter defense.

[cftjk]

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Do they rebound more than Hornets' starters?

starters
Hornets: 32 reb, 2.6 blk
Lakers: 30.2 reb, 3.4 blk

total
Hornets: 42 reb, 3.8 blk
Lakers: 44 reb, 5.3 blk

[ILikeTheGrizz]

No voter is going to look into the situation as much as anyone here is. Well, very few perhaps.

If either Kobe or CP get over 55 wins, that'll be a big boon to them. There's been only a handful of 55 and below win MVPs. And they all had better seasons than at least what Kobe is putting up this year.

That, the fact that two people are having historical seasons this year and neither are him, and the fact that he won't come within sniffing distance of the best record are what hurts Kobe.

Great games like last night are what will help him.

No one cares about the injury concerns because most of the time he's had an above average big. It's just that simple. Very few voters are going to bother to look into it that deeply- every team has issues every year, the Lakers aren't special in that regard. It's not like when Amare was out for the whole year or something.

[eatyourchildren]

youre so focused on the injury angle, as if injuries is the only thing that can affect team record?...
You dot think having a top 5 bench and a bottom 5 bench can be a big difference in wins and losses?

Youre focused on consistent lineups, you fail to look at the consistency of the actual candidates?

You think of injuries and you automatically blame the Lakers fall off on that, when in fact the Lakers biggest problem lately has been perimeter defense.

I don't understand how you guys are missing the boat so much on this one.

Of course having a top 5 bench and a bottom 5 is a big difference. Nobody is arguing that, not me. I argued that having your bench turning into your starterss is a big difference in wins and losses. How are you not getting that?

What do you mean the consistency of the actual candidates? If you're not healthy, how can you be consistent? And doesn't NOH have the most consistently healthy candidates? Or do you mean CP and Kobe? Has Kobe been inconsistent? If so, show me.

So the Lakers' problems are suddenly in the backcourt? The only healthy part of the team? And the fall-off isn't attributable to Gasol and Bynum being out? That's an interesting theory. So the Lakers would be just as bad with or without them?

[ILikeTheGrizz]

I don't understand how you guys are missing the boat so much on this one.

This thread should be locked, and all posts deleted with the exception of this single line. That's the moral of the story here: The utter inability of Laker fans to believe that someone can think anyone in the world could be the MVP other than Kobe.

[B-Scott]

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yet their TS% are almost identical.

Whowouldathunkit?

I dont care about TS% John Hollinger stats

50% shooter

45% shooter


This shows that Chris Paul is the more efficient player and does not waste possessions with bad shots. The more possessions you waste with bad shots the more fastbreak opportunities you give up.

You try and take in to account free throws,but ignore the fast break opportunities Kobe gives up with his bad shot selection at times.

Last night he was efficient and took quality shots. Hopefully he can do with on a consistent basis and not resort back to those 25 foot jumpers like against Charlotte and Memphis.

[KDRE]

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So USA Today's MVP Ranking = "the voters"

Haha, ok.

BTW, this thread is about who we think should be the MVP and why. Not who you think the voters are going to choose.

Well, not only are they the only source I quoted, and not only did i not include radio even the Lakers own 570am but

The UsaToday every year pretty much gives you an indication of who's the leader. I can recall doing the same thing with Steve Nash and Dirk the past 3 years.

Now laugh and laugh and while CP3 ranks among #3 what are your sources in the media that backs up your suppositions and kool aid opinions.