MVP Watch 2008... Part 5

[Original Baller]

Kobe = MVP

[ko8e]

I vote for Kobe. He is the greatest.

[BRINGTHEPAIN]

KG = best defender
Paul = best passer
LeBron = best scorer
KB = ?

[Kobay]

KG = best defender
Paul = best passer
LeBron = best scorer
KB = ?

Player

[tkb]

Player

Nice one.

[shobe_81]

[quote="BRINGTHEPAIN"]

KG = best defender
Paul = best passer
LeBron = best scorer
KB = Best Overall Player, 3 time NBA Champion

I think you're trying too hard as you've tried in the past!

[NO-KG-AI]

There's still a case to be made for everyone, and I was actually looking at Garnett's today.

His stat's seem low, but it's because of minutes and pace, his PER(the "offense" stat) is still higher than Kobe's though, and he is far and away the DPOY IMO, and his team has the most wins.

Earlier today I had Kobe at 1, right now I have Paul at one, I'll probably flip flop again later, TKB, I'll try to have your vote in soon, but im so undecided

[BRINGTHEPAIN]

The MVP voters are going to surprise a lot of fans, majority of fans.

[Real Deal]

Nash has shot 49% against the Hornets this season. Parker has shot 50% against them.

Even better, Deron has shot 57.5% against them.

Chris Paul may be leading the league in steals, but his defense isn't that great.

[SA37]

The MVP voters are going to surprise a lot of fans, majority of fans.

It will be interesting to see how many 1st place votes Garnett gets. I don

[og15]

Nash has shot 49% against the Hornets this season. Parker has shot 50% against them.

Even better, Deron has shot 57.5% against them.

Chris Paul may be leading the league in steals, but his defense isn't that great.

Those aren't really good examples outside of Williams. Nash shoots 50.4% for the season and Parkers shoots 49.2%, not really much of a difference up or down from their season average. Nash though was way below his 3PT shooting numbers, Parker was above, but he took like 2 three's.

Deron Williams has been a clear thorn in Paul's side though, along with the Clippers for some reason, and it's not because Shaun Livingston is guarding him

[Doctor MJ]

The MVP voters are going to surprise a lot of fans, majority of fans.

I think you'll be the one surprised. Have you seen ESPN's voters on the subject? They're really not different from what I'm seeing on RealGM.

[eatyourchildren]

Put LeBron James down for Kobe

The Most Valuable Player ballots are due at the NBA office in New York by Thursday afternoon. LeBron James doesn't have an official vote, but he's got a pretty strong opinion.

He is in the mix and one of his best friends in the league, Chris Paul, has an excellent chance of winning it in what is expected to be a very close race. Yet James, as he has done numerous times in his career, is deferring to Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant. He didn't take long to think about it, either.

''I'd give it to Kobe,'' James said. ''What he's done this whole year, to carry that team to the No. 1 team in the West right now. He's playing his best basketball all around. I've watched him the whole year. I saw it last summer when I played with him with USA Basketball and the sacrifices he's made for the team and he's done that with the Lakers.''

Various polls done around the country have Bryant and Paul in a dead heat for the award with James coming in third or fourth. Two years ago, James finished second in the voting. Last year, he finished fifth. Bryant hasn't won the award in his 12 years in the league, but this appears to be his best shot.

''I've been quoted millions of times saying Kobe is the best player in our league for the last five years,'' James said. ''He hasn't received the MVP. This is his year I think.''

[eatyourchildren]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03208.html

Synopsis of points made:

1. "Bryant did what some thought he was incapable of -- toning down his game to let his team get the glory." I think i said "taming" and garnered a few chuckles from Grizz.

2. ""This is a special crew. I have more bullets in the chamber now," Bryant said. "We had Smush Parker, who is not really playing now. We had Kwame Brown, who's in Memphis and not really playing much now. That was my point guard and my center, and in a pretty tough Western Conference, we still managed to win 45 games [in 2005-06] and get in contention. Now I'm fortunate to have weapons that my peers have had the last several years, with [Amare] Stoudemire and [Shawn] Marion, [Tony] Parker and [Manu] Gin

[ILikeTheGrizz]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/14/AR2008041403208.html

Synopsis of points made:

1. "Bryant did what some thought he was incapable of -- toning down his game to let his team get the glory." I think i said "taming" and garnered a few chuckles from Grizz.

What got chuckles is that Kobe is capable of playing smarter and suddenly it makes him much better at everything but scoring, but someone else playing smarter just makes them worse. It had no basis in reality at all.

4. "Bryant's talent has never been in question; he is widely considered by players and executives as the game's best overall player. But despite the impressive r

[tracey_nice]

Kobe MVP

[eatyourchildren]

-= original quote snipped =-

What got chuckles is that Kobe is capable of playing smarter and suddenly it makes him much better at everything but scoring, but someone else playing smarter just makes them worse. It had no basis in reality at all.

And in June it's always Duncan. And in 2006 it's Wade. And 2004 it's Garnett. And 2008 it's LeBron. He's considered by alot of people, and most of that is just carry-over because he's been among the best for longer than anyone but Duncan, and has never been on the **** teams that Garnett has.

Tell me again why an Appeal to Authority is good argumentation? Unless those people who claim- without any, ya know, evidence- that Kobe is the best every season actually back up their reasoning, their opinions aren't worth much.

1. Now you're just being dense or intellectually dishonest--I don't know which is worse. I never argued that CP playing smarter makes him worse, only that playing "smarter" as applied to the two players are statistically divergent (insomuch as they are reflected in the boxscores...delving deeper into TS%'s, +/-'s, defensive on/off's, etc presents a statistical picture ignored in your analysis of 'stats').

2. If Kobe stopped being the best, it would be acknowledged as such. Sure, there may be a residual for a while--but how long, a month, two months, half a season? But he's consistently been the best and continues to be the best.

Appeal to authority is good argumentation so long as it doesn't assert that the authority is infallible. But it works as good argumentation in a majority of instances in which we believe that the authority is knowledgeable, credible, and have expertise beyond the lay person. Are Jackson, Riley, Popovich, Winter, and a host of other people (players, scouts, etc.) all of those things? They don't claim without evidence (though they may not state their evidence). Maybe you think that they actually have no evidence to back up their claims? That those coaches and scouts don't have the data and the know-how to assess that Kobe is indeed the best player in the game?

I'm sure you checked into the wikipedia page and saw that appeal to authority can be a logical fallacy. Well, too bad you didnt read any further. I think semi-sentient may be right that you don't actually read the posts.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

Of course I don't read posts! I'm not a Kobe fan, I can't read or follow a logical argument!

And, yes, I just looked at wikipedia and found out about logical fallacies.

The point is Kobe had a head start because he was winning rings with Shaq so he immediately had a head start in the public consciousness. Of course most people know that there were a handful of swings you could've plugged into that team and still won rings. But he was that guy so he gets preeminence. And he's never 'fallen off' so he continues to be ahead by default in the public consciousness. But he's never seperated himself as other historical "best of the era"s have. There's plenty of other people that can make that claim this era as well...which kinda makes none of them the best, obviously.

And I've still yet to see some clear argumentation as to why he's the best that doesn't just pass the buck to an authority.

[garcia3]

I think people want Kobe to be scoring 35 ppg while being on a 50-60 win team for them to give recognition as the MVP.

Thing is, his team wouldn't be that great if they needed him to do that...

We'd be at the end of the season and Kobe would be out of gas...looking for an oxygen tank.

Kobe has done what people used to say he couldn't do: maximize the impact of his teammates.

Thing is, Chris Paul is doing that as well... granted he's had Chandler (Team USA) and David West (Allstar PF) and a revitalized Peja Stojakovic (former all star, top shooter in the league).

Lets just say for a second that the supporting casts are a wash (Paul with more all star talent, Kobe with more depth)....

Then you look at their contributions offensively...Paul is having a stellar season....Kobe is having a stellar season (although not his best)...

Both are doing what it takes for their teams to win....so you have to look at who does more overall.

Paul is a leader offensively. The ball is in his hands and where he goes is where the team goes...if he's off...its over...if he's on, they're golden...and more often than not, they've been golden this season. People talk about KG "changing the culture" in Boston.... Well Chris Paul IS the culture of the New Orleans Hornets... His name and the point guard position have become synonymous...however only to a certain degree. Defensively, he relies on the talents of his teammates. When it comes down to it, he hurts the team more than he helps it on the defensive end. While he leads the league in steals, his defense is on par with that of Steve Nash... when Paul's offensive game is off, his impact fades away... Nash got those MVP tropheys because he "changed the way the game was played" while fielding a winning team (in the regular season)...but looking back...in hindsight... he was given an award for his offensive talent...

AN MVP PLAYS BOTH WAYS...


Kobe is the leader of the team offensively...He (to a lesser extent than Paul) gets his teammates easy looks and makes sure they are getting their due on offense...and when the offense staggers, he carries it and closes games out with his unstoppable repertoire..Kobe also sets the tone defensively.. he is the middle linebacker...he directs traffic and dictates rotations...he communicates with the team continuously and they follow his lead on defense...not to mention he has the ability to make plays on both sides of the floor down the stretch...be it an offensive rebound when its sorely needed....a blocked shot in transition...a trap in the corner leading to an on-the-ball strip or turnover... a timely lob pass to a teammate on the break... a clutch shot from long-range to keep the game close or to take the lead...

Paul has filled his role (just as Steven Nash did in the offense that was set up for him to direct and dictate)...

Kobe has filled more than that... He's filled every role the team has needed him to fill in order to get the win... he's scored 50 when it was needed... he's passed for 12 assists when they were needed... he's gone for 15 rebounds when the front court was injured...blocked shots when stops were needed. To put it plainly and simply...he's sacrificed his output and molded himself to his team unlike any other player has this season....through uncertainty... through nagging injuries... through a litany of different lineups....adapting to different players....adapting to losing two of the top three defenders on the team...

He's taken an injury plagued team that faltered when the injuries came last season, and he's made it such that they haven't missed a beat in the most competitive conference race in recent league history....all after an off season clouded in uncertainty (his own doing) where they were predicted to either barely slip into the playoffs if AT ALL... and with his stone-cold will...weathered media criticism and ridicule ...and even booing by his home stadium fans...and he played the game of basketball as well as it can be played....as a teammate...and a leader.

And he's done it the whole season... not just the first or second half.. He's been nothing short of dominant for 81 games...with one more to go....

The three or four candidates all deserve to win this award. Its been a tight race and all have shown in their own way why they are valuable to their teams and to the league... Kobe has just been more all around. He has become what people REFUSED to believe he could become:

THE ULTIMATE TEAMMATE....

If that doesn't earn him an MVP, than he'll never earn it.

[/THREAD]

[Sportfan]

3 SI writers who actually get a vote.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/b ... ml?eref=T1

Ian Thomsen's 2007-08 MVP Ballot
1. Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers
2. Kevin Garnett, Boston Celtics
3. Chris Paul, New Orleans Hornets
4. LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers
5. Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic

Marty Burns' 2007-08 MVP Ballot
1. Kevin Garnett, Boston Celtics
2. Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers
3. Chris Paul, New Orleans Hornets
4. LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers
5. Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs

Jack McCallum's 2007-08 MVP Ballot
1. Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers
2. Chris Paul, New Orleans Hornets
3. LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers
4. Kevin Garnett, Boston Celtics
5. Amar