MVP Watch 2008... Part 5

[RobertGlory]

you guys said it wouldn't matter much if it was really close

one game left for the hornets and it's as close as you can get

[big123]

Kobe is probably going to get the MVP because the Lakers have the #1 seed and he deserves it, but 22-4 with Gasol in the lineup is nothing to overlook and solely praise Kobe for the elite push. That trade ultimately got the Lakers #1 seed, Kobe MVP and a legit chance at a title for the Lakers. Talk about a steal of a trade that pays huge dividends.

[Retrolock]

Has an MVP thread gone on this long? I haven't even noticed the past MVP threads.

Kobe attracts homers and haters like flies to a turd i must say.

[Bgil]

Kobe's intangibles would have to be at least as far ahead of CP's as Paul's production is ahead of Kobe's to make it a wash, and considering we've ascertained that the intangibles are not as critical as the actual production on the court- and yes, we have agreed on that right?

I believe you're using that faulty "production" argument when you really mean box score stats. The best "production" stats are adjusted +/-, offensive +/-, and defensive +/-, overall +/- etc.

+/- is basically " contextual impact" vs just numbers with no measurement of impact.

If you're Phil Jackson, you played the Cavs once on December 20th, in Cleveland, two days after you played the Bulls in Chicago with a game in Philly the next night, followed by a game in New York the night after that. Four games in six days, all on the road. I doubt he was spending hours upon hours breaking down James gameplay. Even less time comparing that to his superstars game.

Actually they do. They aren't putting in 40 hour weeks here. We're talking 60+ at least for many of these guys. Phil said, in his books, that he divides all the teams in the league up among his assistant coaches. Each one is responsible for scouting a certain group of teams and players all season long. Periodically, they meet with the head coach and players to discuss things they've found, review tapes, talk about scouting reports from different agencies, strategies etc.

Before every practice the coaches go over the scouting material and devise game plans that give to the players via that practice or the accompanying video sessions. Before a game, the whole team is usually required to attend a film session were they collectively meet and discuss the teams they're going to play. Edit: they also view lots of film of their own excution and read independent scouting reports of their own tendencies (as other teams would do).

Additionally, each player is given exhaustive scouting reports on each player that typically consist of statistical analysis of tendencies and a video (I used to prepare these kinds of videos BTW). There's a whole library of videos that are accessible to every member of the staff and every player at any time (provided by the league IIRC).

Some of these guys view game film all the time... on the bus, in the locker room, on the planes, at home. In the off-season players are encouraged to view specially prepared game film of themselves, other players, and even past players.

One of the places I interned for even had a specific development coach assigned to each athlete. They'd chart the players current skill set and skill level in addition to what skills would be assimilated and in what order, practiced on what dates, used against what opponents etc.
They made me take this ridiculously hard class on Applied Mathematics (Game Theory) and another on strategic planning so I could understand it all. They had a guy on staff that had his doctorate in Game Theory from California Institute of Technology (I think) and was probably the smartest dude I've ever met...

Anyway,
NEVER do these guys just show up and wing it. Doesn't matter if they play double headers or 4 games in 5 nights on the road. They PREPARE everything. That's why the good coaches get paid so much money. They earn every dime of it and so do their staff.

So yes, I believe there are many, many, many people more qualified to compare Kobe Bryant and LeBron James this season than Phil Jackson or any other coach. Quite a few of them probably post on this messageboard.

That's incredibly laughable. You really have no grip on the situation at all. Can you even describe how the Lakers offense functions? Even just the basics? Can you describe how ANY NBA offense actually works and the theory behind it?
If an NBA coach made a test on the intricacies of his team's offensive and defensive strategy do you think you could pass it? For any team?
Do you think you could design an NBA offense or defense? How about a training program to improve the skills of high level players? Or even college players?

It's pretty naive to think there are many many many people here on this forum more qualified to dissect the game than Phil Jackson... possibly the greatest coach in the league. Or any NBA coach for that matter. Or even a college coach.

[RobertGlory]

you're talking +/- as if chris paul and kobe bryant are involved in EVERY SINGLE PLAY on the floor

the box score stats are relevant because they measure what players actually DO.

CP dumps the ball into David West who posts up Odom or Bynum and drops in a fadeaway jumper. Did CP or Kobe really impact the play?????? No but it counts for or against both of them with +/-.

[lunatic4jc]

you guys said it wouldn't matter much if it was really close

one game left for the hornets and it's as close as you can get

i said that as well.. but many journalists and board members' opinions was that whoever wins the 1st seed will win the MVP.. now that the lakers are the #1 seed, where are they now?

[BRINGTHEPAIN]

The Lakers are nowhere near as good as the Celtics.

[Bgil]

you're talking +/- as if chris paul and kobe bryant are involved in EVERY SINGLE PLAY on the floor

the box score stats are relevant because they measure what players actually DO.

CP dumps the ball into David West who posts up Odom or Bynum and drops in a fadeaway jumper. Did CP or Kobe really impact the play?????? No but it counts for or against both of them with +/-.

That's countered by measuring the difference between a player and his teammates. Since Chris Paul didn't cause the play then David West should still be able to produce it when Paul is not on the floor. That's accounted for when looking at +/- and on/off stats. 82 games covers this kind of thing regularly.

It's is also possible that Kobe dumps the ball into Gasol and it results in a similar jumper. Kobe could impact the play (in a unique way) because the defense does not double Gasol when Kobe is in the game. That is accounted for in +/- and on/off because we'd see that Gasol shoots a higher percentage (plays better ) with Kobe on the floor than off the floor.

Fast foward to about 8:15 in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cLcLVYcE3U

Kobe has the ball, Chris Paul (stupidly) leaves Fisher to double Kobe. Kobe makes the pass to a wide open Fisher as Chandler (who was guarding Gasol) wisely rotates out to him. Gasol, with no one on him, gets deep position in the paint. Fisher delivers the easy pass to the open guy sitting next to the hoop. Box score only gives credit to fisher (assist) and Gasol (2pts) while Kobe got nothing for actually creating the shot. Just him being on the floor with the ball created the easy bucket.
Recorded by +/- not by the box score.

More importantly, without going over the game footage, it's impossible to understand why Gasol's basket happened or why Kobe even attempting to create a box score stat by forcing a pass, spliting the double team, or jacking up a shot (which he might make) is not the correct decision. The correct decision was the one that gave the box score stats to someone else.

Likewise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38DOBtl2 ... re=related

This play does not happen without Kobe, period. But he gets no assist or other offensive box score stat (he may get the steal there though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6lrXawIYhA
Kobe draws multiple defenders and makes a great pass to Radman right under the hoop. Defense fouls to stop the easy basket. Ultimately Radman gets two freethrows and the team gets two points. Kobe gets nothing in the box score.

+/- isn't perfect but if you adjust it and compare it in context (to who's in the game, who's not, etc) then it easily becomes the best stat for impact and production. It's also clearly the best stat for defense.

[Bgil]

The Lakers are nowhere near as good as the Celtics.

True. If Bynum comes back and fits in like we hope he does then I think we are as good. If not then I hope Washington, Detroit, or Cleveland takes Boston out.

[TheMartian]

What intangibles has KG brought? WHy couldn't he use em in Minnesota???

You're basically gauging KG's value on what he has accomplished when he was in Minny. Well that same standard applies to Kobe. What has he done for the Lakers when he was left with a mediocre supporting cast?

You talk as if Kobe has all these intangibles that KG doesn't have, but in reality, Kobe hasn't brought the Lakers anywhere since Shaq left LA.

I'm not saying Kobe doesn't deserve MVP honors this year, because I think he does. My point is, don't go using intangibles as an argument when you obviously don't know what you are talking about.

[tkb]

Now that we have locked up the nr 1 seed, Kobe should have this award in the bag if the voters vote like they have been saying they are going to vote (whoever wins the west).

[SA37]

-= original quote snipped =-



Come on, SA37, re-read my first post. My futher explanation to your replies have everything to do with this:"and the first half of the season, when he was still feeling out whether he wanted to get with the program or not, still sits on his record."

This is Hollinger's reasoning for placing Kobe 4th. This reasoning is false. That's what I was saying. I never said Kobe was right in his off season actions and that he felt his squad was good enough to compete. Hollinger doesn't mention that in his 5 sentence explanation. He simply comes up with the quoted. He's also the only person I've heard/read mention some crap like that (pardon my French, but I don't know what to call the quoted part).

cheers

I wasn

[Bgil]

-= original quote snipped =-



You're basically gauging KG's value on what he has accomplished when he was in Minny. Well that same standard applies to Kobe. What has he done for the Lakers when he was left with a mediocre supporting cast?

You talk as if Kobe has all these intangibles that KG doesn't have, but in reality, Kobe hasn't brought the Lakers anywhere since Shaq left LA.

They've beat expectations each of the past three years including this year's first place finish. Shaq came to a team that won 53 games the season before, had three all-stars in their primes (NVE, Eddie Jones, Ceballos), was here for 8 years and we only won the West once. Kobe's doing a great job so far with far less talent around him.

[Bgil]

Anyway, at the end of the day the point that is being made by Hollinger is legitamite in my book. Kobe thought his team and Laker management were crap and he was quite boisterous in letting us all know about it. The team came out and showed they were capable of being an excellent supporting cast and then Kobe gets all the credit for making his teammates better and being a leader?

Yes. The FO needed to be called out. Even now, the only move they really made was Evans and Cook for Ariza. Fish and Gasol fell into our laps.
Last season we started 26-13 just as we did this year. If Gasol hadn't fallen to us by default of having the biggest expiring contract then we would've went through the same thing we did last season... injuries killing our season.
Kobe lit a fire under the FO and got them to accept a luxury tax THAT NO OTHER TEAM WOULD ACCEPT. Even Buss didn't want to except it before Kobe's tirade because he turned down Baron Davis, Boozer, Kidd, Peja, and Artest in the previous three seasons.

Just imagine if Nash had lit a fire under the Suns FO. They'd probably have a couple championships right now instead of auctioning off draft picks for Sarver's pocket change.

[Bgil]

showed they were capable of being an excellent supporting cast and then Kobe gets all the credit for making his teammates better

Kobe was the one who originally came up with the idea for the new offensive changes that is specifically designed to allow our role players (Farmar specifically) to play to their strengths. Not to mention you can see the effects on the court. Even Gasol is playing better with Kobe than without.

[SA37]

-= original quote snipped =-



I know you're speaking in green font but KG should've ripped the GM and Glen Taylor several years ago. We're talking about a guy that took a paycut in the prime of his career just to see his (very good) coach get scapegoated. That front office made so many horrible moves from trading Cassell and a first for Jaric, the Joe Smith situation, the Kandi situation, trading away Brandon Roy and Ray Allen, the Googs situation, overloading the team with combo guards etc.

KG wimped out and started crying on tv to John Thompson instead of blasting the people who needed to be blasted.

Well, different strokes for different folks.

There are certainly good ways to go about asking for help or a trade and there are bad ways.

I think it is quite easy to decide where Kobe stands in that respect.

[SA37]

-= original quote snipped =-



You know we signed Fish in the offseason and traded two other players for Ariza about 7 games into the season, right? Hard to say we had the same lineup when two of our biggest upgrades (Ariza over Luke/Cook, and Fisher over Smush) weren't even on the team before. Hell, Ariza and Fisher were/are starters.

Are you trying to say what I think you

[SA37]

Yes. The FO needed to be called out. Even now, the only move they really made was Evans and Cook for Ariza. Fish and Gasol fell into our laps.
Last season we started 26-13 just as we did this year. If Gasol hadn't fallen to us by default of having the biggest expiring contract then we would've went through the same thing we did last season... injuries killing our season.
Kobe lit a fire under the FO and got them to accept a luxury tax THAT NO OTHER TEAM WOULD ACCEPT. Even Buss didn't want to except it before Kobe's tirade because he turned down Baron Davis, Boozer, Kidd, Peja, and Artest in the previous three seasons.

Just imagine if Nash had lit a fire under the Suns FO. They'd probably have a couple championships right now instead of auctioning off draft picks for Sarver's pocket change.

showed they were capable of being an excellent supporting cast and then Kobe gets all the credit for making his teammates better

Kobe was the one who originally came up with the idea for the new offensive changes that is specifically designed to allow our role players (Farmar specifically) to play to their strengths. Not to mention you can see the effects on the court. Even Gasol is playing better with Kobe than without.

Is there anything you won

[Big Bird]

Wow, what an interesting read from that New Orleans forum, man!.

1. He didnt need an all star to be traded to his team to have a good year unlike kobe.

True, he already had an All-Star. Kobe also didn't get an All-Star. The Lakers were tied for 1st when Bynum went down.

2. He has accounted for 44% of the hornets offense, Kobe has accounted for 36% of the lakers offense.

True. Props to CP. I would be worried if a PG didn't account for a great deal of the team's offense, though.

3. The Hornets were predicted to finish 8th in the west and 4th in the division, paul has proved everyone wrong and has led us at worst to 2nd in the conference and 1st in the division.

The Lakers were predicted to get 8th in the West maybe, but were generally considered as the outsiders to not make the Playoffs. BSPN had them as the 20th team in the league. It's really odd how one would mention where the Hornets were being predicted to finish, but wouldn't mention the Lakers, isn't it? They've both proven people wrong, Kobe moreso than Paul when you count in the injuries and other travesty.

4. He has made his teammates better(west chandler and peja).

Bryant has mad his teammates better (Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Vujacic, Turiaf, Farmar et al). This character is getting awfully selective with his reasoning.

5. Averages more steals than kobe.

True. Props to CP.

6. shoots better percentages in shooting free throw and 3 point percentage than kobe.

He does indeed, props again. (FTs and 3PTs are virtually a wash; the TS is almost identical)

7. Averages less turnovers than kobe.

Can't argue with that one.

Bryant does however score a great deal more, shoots at a better TS% (yeah, .575 to .574; as useless as saying Paul shoots a better FT or 3PT%, but it's just to make a poing), rebounds more, blocks more shots and plays better defense.

Wow, I can't believe I just wasted 4 minutes of my life to contradict that.

[Original Baller]

Kobe is probably going to get the MVP because the Lakers have the #1 seed and he deserves it, but 22-4 with Gasol in the lineup is nothing to overlook and solely praise Kobe for the elite push. That trade ultimately got the Lakers #1 seed, Kobe MVP and a legit chance at a title for the Lakers. Talk about a steal of a trade that pays huge dividends.

I guess Kobe's the only guy in the league who should get penalized for playing with an all-star caliber player. It doesn't matter that CP3 has David West whose putting up 20/9 and was an all-star this season. Or the fact Peja is a former all-star and among the best 3pt shooters in the league. And the fact Chandler is a great center.

No matter how you slice it, the Lakers were #1 with Bynum and before Gasol and were #1 after they got him. The only consistent on the team was Kobe.

Kobe = MVP