MVP Watch 2008... Part 5

[NO-KG-AI]

Yeah, and he shoots 51% on his career, and is usually around 52-53 when healthy, and West is a 47% shooter, even at his best, I don't get how you can think West is an equal offensive player unless you are a ridiculous homer.

[Bgil]

It's gonna be hard for Paul to win the MVP award if after blundering 3 of their last 4 games and handing the Western Conference lead to the Lakers.

They seriously need this win tonight against Dallas because voters are just that fickle right now.

OT: NOH needs to get a perimeter defender in the offseason.

[NO-KG-AI]

It's gonna be hard for Paul to win the MVP award if after blundering 3 of their last 4 games and handing the Western Conference lead to the Lakers.

They seriously need this win tonight against Dallas because voters are just that fickle right now.

OT: NOH needs to get a perimeter defender in the offseason.

Agreed, on all of it.

[G35]

I agree with Bill Simmons, both Paul and Garnett deserve it over Kobe. Put Kobe on the Hornets and it's just like the Lakers squad that struggled to even make the playoffs. Chris Paul deserves the MVP way more than Kobe.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/080416

Please don't be a fool and try to compare the Hornets talent to the Lakers. A reason Paul deserves MVP is b/c he makes average players look like All Stars. Kobe is the best all around player but no way does he deserve MVP over Paul, put him on the Hornets and they struggle for 8 seed like Lakers team of the past. I know this site is all Kobe homers but read the article Simmons wrote and keep getting mad.

Come on ya'll follow the thread.


Why aren't the Nuggets the best team in the NBA? They have AI, a top 15-20 player in the league and Melo another top 15-20 player. They have Camby DPOY. JR Smith a lights out 3 pt shooter. Najera a good role player. KMart a decent PF. So why is this team barely making the playoff's?

Because the sum of their parts don't equal their talent. Unlike the Hornets that have put together a team of players that fill their roles perfectly.

But I credit the Hornets FO in putting together a good team. Yes Peterson is not very good but he can hit a few three's and spread the floor. That's all they need him for. West is being under rated in this thread. This guy is lights out. He is great scorer, better rebounder/shot blocker than Dirk, he is a better rebounder than Pau and almost as good a shot blocker. I do agree that Pau is a better player but just because Pau is 7ft. West is definitely tougher and has playoff basketball mentality. Pau has to show that.


Peja is absolutely perfect for Paul. I've read some Hornets fans think Peja is the team MVP. Thats going overboard but his value to the team is immense. Paul would be much more stifled without Peja to spread the floor.

Chandler might be the one irreplaceable part the Hornets have because he gives the offense so many 2nd chances leading the NBA in offensive rebounding. Unlike Camby who does try to display an outside touch and he doesn't have the fire of Chandler and Camby can't run the floor like Chandler. Peja and Peterson on the wings, West at the high post and all Chandler has to do is run right down the middle or set a high pick and catch alley oops all game.

The Hornets are a great TEAM. Paul orchestrates incredibly but if you take away just one of those parts and I mean West, Chandler or Peja it would not look nearly as efficiently.....

[lunatic4jc]

how do you figure??????

if we win tomorrow night in a game that doesn't matter for us in terms of seeding, we'll have the same record at 57-25

season series is 2-2

all the #1 seed for yall indicates is that yall just beat different opponents than we did

ok now you are +1 on losses with the lakers.. what now?

[og15]

G35, I don't get it, you quoted NO-KG-AI. If you wanted to reply to that other guy, why didn't you quote him instead?

[JusBus32]

I don't know how anyone can give Paul the MVP after choking in the final 4 or so games of the season.

[G35]

G35, I don't get it, you quoted NO-KG-AI. If you wanted to reply to that other guy, why didn't you quote him instead?

Two reasons. The other guys quote re started the whole "Paul makes his avg teammates better" for the last couple of pages. But I respect NO-KG-AI's opinion more. So his comment had more precedence but the other guys comment was the fire starter......

[Bgil]

The Hornets are a great TEAM. Paul orchestrates incredibly but if you take away just one of those parts and I mean West, Chandler or Peja it would not look nearly as efficiently.....

Exactly. Other than their lack of a perimeter defender they have a very nicely balanced starting lineup. edit: That lack is going to get them booted from the playoffs though. Even if you do lock dirk down, you can't have Kidd and Terry putting up almost 60 points on you and expect to win.

I'm not even saying that Paul should be MVP, I was just saying the arguments are stupid that he has 2 all stars, when Peja isn't, and David wasn't.

the last time Peja wasn't injured or in a messed up situation (Sactown, Indy) he was an All-Star. And I don't mean a Camby, Gasol, Wally type all star that might make it once in the prime of their career when they get lucky... he made it 3 years in a row. He finished first in those crappy offense win shares stat you guys like to quote. Second in total win shares. 4th in MVP voting. 2nd in PPG above Kobe, AI, Duncan, and Garnett.
He's only 28 and he's 8th all-time in made 3 pointers, 4th All-time in ft%, 39th in win share etc.

Paul isn't making Peja now anymore than Mike Bibby and Jason Williams made Peja a couple years ago.

[NO-KG-AI]

Peja was scoring 24 ppg, on 48%/43, now he's at 16.4 on 43.9/44

Peja has back and knee problems now, this isn't the same Peja, give it up, stop trying to prop everyone up to something they aren't.

[ChocolateThundr]

I dont know why some Laker fans (I assume) are discrediting Paul's effects on the Hornets. 99% Kobe is the MVP so why is there still argument, especially arguments on how Paul really doesnt make his teammates better.

[G35]

I dont know why some Laker fans (I assume) are discrediting Paul's effects on the Hornets. 99% Kobe is the MVP so why is there still argument, especially arguments on how Paul really doesnt make his teammates better.

So are Pauls teammates avg?

Yes or no.

Not is Paul MVP. Not his effeect on the teams success. But are his teammates avg......

[og15]

Why aren't the Nuggets the best team in the NBA? They have AI, a top 15-20 player in the league and Melo another top 15-20 player. They have Camby DPOY. JR Smith a lights out 3 pt shooter. Najera a good role player. KMart a decent PF. So why is this team barely making the playoff's?

Because the sum of their parts don't equal their talent. Unlike the Hornets that have put together a team of players that fill their roles perfectly.

Who was denying this? Just like if the Lakers had added Allen Iverson instead of Pau Gasol, they wouldn't be as good a team even though Iverson is "better" than Derek Fisher, and a "higher ranked" player than Pau Gasol.

But I credit the Hornets FO in putting together a good team. Yes Peterson is not very good but he can hit a few three's and spread the floor. That's all they need him for. West is being under rated in this thread. This guy is lights out. He is great scorer, better rebounder/shot blocker than Dirk, he is a better rebounder than Pau and almost as good a shot blocker. I do agree that Pau is a better player but just because Pau is 7ft. West is definitely tougher and has playoff basketball mentality. Pau has to show that.

Pau is also a better player than West because he's a better passer, just as good a scorer while being more efficient (with or without Kobe), and while man to man defensively he's nothing, he's a superior shot blocker to West. That's not to say West is not good, but calling him a "great" scorer when he's barely over 20 PPG and shooting 48% as a PF is a little odd to me. He can put up 20 PPG on other teams, but that's not "great". Would you call Gasol a great scorer? Or maybe I'm just picking at the use of the word great here. Before he was on the Lakers, Gasol had two seasons where his FG% was the same as West's TS%, and he scored the same/similar amount of points both those years.

The rebound difference between those guys is like 0.1 - 0.3, and their rebound rate's are about the same. They all also play with another guy who rebounds well, so they're pretty much equal as rebounders, nothing to mention there.

The Hornets are a great TEAM. Paul orchestrates incredibly but if you take away just one of those parts and I mean West, Chandler or Peja it would not look nearly as efficiently.....

This is true, again, I don't think that has been denied. They don't really have any starter quality players off the bench. The only replacable guy is Morris Peterson, they could possibly put Rasual Butler there and survive. Again, no one is claiming they aren't well put together, good teams are well put together. If you take away Gasol, how good are the Lakers without Bynum? But these aren't the only players Paul could succeed with though. If you replace Peja with Mike Miller and Morris Peterson with Raja Bell, they're possibly a better team, or at least as good. If you replace Peja with Jason Richardson and move MoPete to SF, again, they're not likely to fall in their ability as a team. But again, I don't think there was any denial of them being well put together by the "other" people in this thread.

the last time Peja wasn't injured or in a messed up situation (Sactown, Indy) he was an All-Star. And I don't mean a Camby, Gasol, Wally type all star that might make it once in the prime of their career when they get lucky... he made it 3 years in a row. He finished first in those crappy offense win shares stat you guys like to quote. Second in total win shares. 4th in MVP voting. 2nd in PPG above Kobe, AI, Duncan, and Garnett.
He's only 28 and he's 8th all-time in made 3 pointers, 4th All-time in ft%, 39th in wn share etc.

Just like Jason Terry was never an All-Star, Peja is also 30 years old . Peja is not the same player he was 4 years ago though, his back problems are not gone, and he has other injuries affecting him, he's just not overexerting himself on this team. He works a lot less for his offense on the Hornets because instead of moving off the ball and coming of screens a lot to score (while still being assisted though), he's just getting open on the wing or corner and hitting hitting his shots. The Hornets also aren't having him do much interior scoring at all, and his finishing to me has been weaker than other years, he get's blocked too much IMO.

Paul is great at beating his man, drawing a defender, and making the game 5 on 4 on offense, and that saves Peja a lot of trouble. Peja is being assisted on a career high 85% of his made jumpshots, and his previous highs were 77% in Indiana, and 76% in Sacramento in 03-04. This might not be his highest eFG% or TS% (he's not being used to go to the basket much in NOH like mentioned, so he isn't getting FT attempts), but the way he's made to play is keeping him healthy, allowing him to be efficient from the field (still 3rd best eFG% of his career only below his healthier Sacramento years), and he has more energy defensively.

Peja is not going to give you 24 PPG as a first option on any team while shooting 48% FG and 43% 3PT like he did in 03-04, he's not capable of that right now. He's not being the leading scorer on any team and having them make the playoffs right now.

[ChocolateThundr]

-= original quote snipped =-




So are Pauls teammates avg?

Yes or no.

Not is Paul MVP. Not his effeect on the teams success. But are his teammates avg......

Are Paul's teammates average?

Of course not.

[Bgil]

Peja was scoring 24 ppg, on 48%/43, now he's at 16.4 on 43.9/44

Peja has back and knee problems now, this isn't the same Peja, give it up, stop trying to prop everyone up to something they aren't.

Stop trying to make Paul out to be superman. He's Deron Williams not Magic Johnson.
Peja's averaging less because you guys run an offense that's built around Paul and it's slow as molasses. Pauls' got the ball 10x's more than Bibby or Williams ever did and it shows. Likewise, fg% tends to dip when you're shooting more than 51% of your shots from behind the arc (vs less than 40% in Sactown). Don't act like he's dropped off simply because your team is restricting him.

[eatyourchildren]

Is Kobe MVP yet?

[RobertGlory]

-= original quote snipped =-



Stop trying to make Paul out to be superman. He's Deron Williams not Magic Johnson.
Peja's averaging less because you guys run an offense that's built around Paul and it's slow as molasses. Pauls' got the ball 10x's more than Bibby or Williams ever did and it shows. Likewise, fg% tends to dip when you're shooting more than 51% of your shots from behind the arc (vs less than 40% in Sactown). Don't act like he's dropped off simply because your team is restricting him.

that's a good point

lakers 95.6 for 6th in the league

celtics 90.9 for 19th

hornets 89.9 for 26th

i'm sure someone else could go into more detail, like the paces when paul, KG, and kobe are in the game respectively.

[Bgil]

This is true, again, I don't think that has been denied. They don't really have any starter quality players off the bench. The only replacable guy is Morris Peterson, they could possibly put Rasual Butler there and survive. Again, no one is claiming they aren't well put together, good teams are well put together. If you take away Gasol, how good are the Lakers without Bynum?

That's taking away TWO starters from the Lakers. We're talking about taking away only one from the Hornets. I think you take away Peja or West and the whole thing falls apart. They're in the lottery. Take away both and they're the Sacramento Kings (and I doubt they'd beat the Kings head to head).
Even taking away Chandler puts them in the lottery IMO.

If you replace Peja with Mike Miller and Morris Peterson with Raja Bell, they're possibly a better team, or at least as good.

Replace Odom with Mike Miller and and Vlad with Raja Bell and we're a lock for the title. When Bynum comes back that would be a dynasty.

Peja is not the same player he was 4 years ago though, his back problems are not gone, and he has other injuries affecting him, he's just not overexerting himself on this team.

He had health problems in Sacramento too.

He works a lot less for his offense on the Hornets because instead of moving off the ball and coming of screens a lot to score (while still being assisted though), he's just getting open on the wing or corner and hitting hitting his shots. The Hornets also aren't having him do much interior scoring at all, and his finishing to me has been weaker than other years, he get's blocked too much IMO.

Paul is great at beating his man, drawing a defender, and making the game 5 on 4 on offense, and that saves Peja a lot of trouble. Peja is being assisted on a career high 85% of his made jumpshots, and his previous highs were 77% in Indiana, and 76% in Sacramento in 03-04. This might not be his highest eFG% or TS% (he's not being used to go to the basket much in NOH like mentioned, so he isn't getting FT attempts), but the way he's made to play is keeping him healthy, allowing him to be efficient from the field (still 3rd best eFG% of his career only below his healthier Sacramento years), and he has more energy defensively.

That's what happens when you turn Michael Redd into a rich-mans Jason Kapono.

He's not being the leading scorer on any team and having them make the playoffs right now.

He did it just two years ago in Indy. JO didn't even play in half the games after Peja showed up and they still made the playoffs.

[NO-KG-AI]

-= original quote snipped =-



Stop trying to make Paul out to be superman. He's Deron Williams not Magic Johnson.
Peja's averaging less because you guys run an offense that's built around Paul and it's slow as molasses. Pauls' got the ball 10x's more than Bibby or Williams ever did and it shows. Likewise, fg% tends to dip when you're shooting more than 51% of your shots from behind the arc (vs less than 40% in Sactown). Don't act like he's dropped off simply because your team is restricting him.

He's dropped off due to age and mounting injuries, you're not even arguing my point, you're trying to pretend this is MVP Peja too diminish Paul.

You're about the biggest homer on this site, just go away.

[eatyourchildren]

"Hi, my name is Kobe Bryant, and my nearest MVP competitor lost 4 of his last 5 games"