Champ Bailey vs Primetime

[Ong_dynasty]

Who do you think is better at their peak. Lets say your a GM and you have a choice to have one of them for 3 "peak" years.
who would you choose?

Am I crazy to choose Champ Bailey?

Prime maybe a better coverage corner, But I believe Champ has better hands and helps so much in the Run.

So who would you have?

[Basketball Jesus]

Champ can/will tackle people.

[Next Coming]

That is the big difference between the two. Champ Bailey is good in run support and can actually tackle while Sanders is more of the playmaker.

Champ Bailey is a pretty good playmaker in his own right.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'll take Primetime.

No need to tackle when no one throws at you.

Besides if I am building a defense, I am not trying to depend on my corners for run support.

[Ong_dynasty]

I'll take Primetime.

No need to tackle when no one throws at you.

Besides if I am building a defense, I am not trying to depend on my corners for run support.

Come on its not like QB's throw to champ, well not the smart ones anyways.
wasnt he only thrown to like 30 times last year more or less. with a 1/3 being defended and 1/3 being intercepted?

I know run support isnt the most impt thing in a cb, But it sure as hell helps.

and playmaking. hasnt champ have 2 years of 10 int's the last 2 years. has primetime done that?

Im not really hating on primetime since he was probably my fav. cb before champ. But champ really does amaze me

[NO-KG-AI]

Having lots of Interceptions is usually pretty good evidence that you are thrown at, I think you are severely underrating Deion's cover skills.

Champ has only 10 INt's once, so it shows that you are just pulling stuff out of the air, so I am sure the 30 thrown to stat is also wrong.

Usually INT's and high tackle #'s show that the ball comes in their direction a fair bit.

[Ong_dynasty]

Having lots of Interceptions is usually pretty good evidence that you are thrown at, I think you are severely underrating Deion's cover skills.

Champ has only 10 INt's once, so it shows that you are just pulling stuff out of the air, so I am sure the 30 thrown to stat is also wrong.

Usually INT's and high tackle #'s show that the ball comes in their direction a fair bit.

oh sorry it was 8 and 10..
still more than deion ever had..
and your right high tackles and INT normally mean thrown to alot.
But I would beg the differ with champ bailey.
But even champ in an interview said he only gets thrown to 4 more or less a game.
Its funny because the QB's that throw to him are the rookies and not so great QB's. Look what happened when he went against the colts and patriots..they didnt even look to his side

Im not denying that Deion is probably a better cover corner. But I think the fact that Champ can help with the run and his INT's and Pass defensed compared to deion Id rather choose Champ.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... yers/4655/

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... ayers/589/

[NO-KG-AI]

You still don't get it, Deion was NEVER thrown at, he was by far the most feared corner, part of it being reputation, part of it being because he had the best closing speed ever IMO.

When you check down on that receiver, you hesitate for one second, and then once you throw it its too late.

4 TD's off of int's compared to 9 for Deion.

Trust me, Champ is thrown at far more than Deion ever was, just check that Raiders game in the snow a few years ago where Jerry Porter had 3 TD's on Champ. I would bet Deion would go a few years without giving up a TD.

Champ is probably the best CB we had since Deion, but he's not better than Deion. period.

[Ong_dynasty]

You still don't get it, Deion was NEVER thrown at, he was by far the most feared corner, part of it being reputation, part of it being because he had the best closing speed ever IMO.

When you check down on that receiver, you hesitate for one second, and then once you throw it its too late.

4 TD's off of int's compared to 9 for Deion.

Trust me, Champ is thrown at far more than Deion ever was, just check that Raiders game in the snow a few years ago where Jerry Porter had 3 TD's on Champ. I would bet Deion would go a few years without giving up a TD.

Champ is probably the best CB we had since Deion, but he's not better than Deion. period.

Im not denying that Deion was a better cover corner and probably got bored doing nothing.
Yes Deion has 5 more TD's and how many more years that champ has 8 more? its not like he won't be able to make that up.

Oh and I agree with you I was never a fan of Champ Bailey 3 years ago, Porter made him look bad, Same with 85, etc. But Champ 3 years ago compared to Champ last year is totally different.Especially Last years Champ. And before last year I sure as hell would laugh at anyone making a thread like this as well, But last year I really do believe Champ on another leve and if he has more years like that, I think he will be better than Primetime

But I really do believe last year and the year before, the smart QB's would never look his way anymore. Look at last year.
And when you consider hat Champ has to deal with regarding that horrible pass rush they have in Denver. Aint bad at all now is it?

[NO-KG-AI]

-= original quote snipped =-



Im not denying that Deion was a better cover corner and probably got bored doing nothing.
Yes Deion has 5 more TD's and how many more years that champ has 8 more? its not like he won't be able to make that up.

Oh and I agree with you I was never a fan of Champ Bailey 3 years ago, Porter made him look bad, Same with 85, etc. But Champ 3 years ago compared to Champ last year is totally different.Especially Last years Champ. And before last year I sure as hell would laugh at anyone making a thread like this as well, But last year I really do believe Champ on another leve and if he has more years like that, I think he will be better than Primetime

And when you consider hat Champ has to deal with regarding that horrible pass rush they have in Denver. Aint bad at all now is it?

But I really do believe last year and the year before, the smart QB's would never look his way anymore. Look at last year.

Well lets just say that Deion had 8 TD's in 9 years, and Champ has 4 in 9 years, and if you think Champ will sustain a high level of play as long as Deion, that is debateable, and possible but still unlikely.

You admittedly haven't watched Champ or Deion as much as an expert on these guys would need to.

Even if you think Champ is a different player (He isn't BTW, QB's just started to challenge him more, and he made them pay) and has put himself on Deion's level because of 2-3 years your nuts, sustaining that level of play for 10 years.

Why do you keep saying they didn't throw at him?? If you get 8-10 int's and 64 and 85 tackles they are obviously throwing at you. He also has near the same amount of passes defensed in 6 less years of playing time, which means he is being thrown at.

Here are some more stats for you:

Champs average per interception: 10.9 yard on 39 interceptions.

Deions average per interception: 25.1 yards per on 53 interceptions.

Deion: 22 td's total

Champ:5 total

If You take out the 2 baltimore years, where Deion was almost 40, and playing nickel the comparison really isn't close.

Deion:1 interception ever 3.4 games

Champ 1 interception every 3.2 games


If Champ plays into his mid 30's don't expect this to even stay close, Deion tops him even through a long career, and Champ has yet to hit the area where he starts his decline, yet he still can't match Deion.

I assume you aren't going to change your mind, considering the fact that you just ignore all the facts given, but those are some interesting stats for some others to chew on, and will come in handy for the CB rankings.

Their is nothing I can say if you honestly think Champ has better hands lol, you obviously never ever saw primetime play(considering he played receiver, and has 3 TD's as such)

Also you have to factor this all in knowing that Deion was also having a pretty sucessful baseball career, and you can see this isn't really close.

IMO Rod Woodson is the only person that you can compare to him, but I would still take Deion.

[Ong_dynasty]

Well lets just say that Deion had 8 TD's in 9 years, and Champ has 4 in 9 years, and if you think Champ will sustain a high level of play as long as Deion, that is debateable, and possible but still unlikely.

You admittedly haven't watched Champ or Deion as much as an expert on these guys would need to.

Even if you think Champ is a different player (He isn't BTW, QB's just started to challenge him more, and he made them pay) and has put himself on Deion's level because of 2-3 years your nuts, sustaining that level of play for 10 years.

Why do you keep saying they didn't throw at him?? If you get 8-10 int's and 64 and 85 tackles they are obviously throwing at you. He also has near the same amount of passes defensed in 6 less years of playing time, which means he is being thrown at.

Here are some more stats for you:

Champs average per interception: 10.9 yard on 39 interceptions.

Deions average per interception: 25.1 yards per on 53 interceptions.

Deion: 22 td's total

Champ:5 total

If You take out the 2 baltimore years, where Deion was almost 40, and playing nickel the comparison really isn't close.

Deion:1 interception ever 3.4 games

Champ 1 interception every 3.2 games


If Champ plays into his mid 30's don't expect this to even stay close, Deion tops him even through a long career, and Champ has yet to hit the area where he starts his decline, yet he still can't match Deion.

I assume you aren't going to change your mind, considering the fact that you just ignore all the facts given, but those are some interesting stats for some others to chew on, and will come in handy for the CB rankings.

Their is nothing I can say if you honestly think Champ has better hands lol, you obviously never ever saw primetime play(considering he played receiver, and has 3 TD's as such)

Also you have to factor this all in knowing that Deion was also having a pretty sucessful baseball career, and you can see this isn't really close.

IMO Rod Woodson is the only person that you can compare to him, but I would still take Deion.

Lets say for argument sake Champ will get 6 to 7 td's in his whole career?which will be a couple of TD's short of primetime. I would take that for the RUN support that Champ gives. But thats just me. I enjoy watching versatile defenders

and If you read my original post I said peak 3 years. so Primetime's 10 years over 3 doesnt mean anything.
As I said I never argued that Primetime was probably a better cover corner. But a good amount of his tackles come from run support (which Deion never heard of before) and he is getting defending the passes against him and INT. Isnt that a good thing? Isnt that what a playmaking corner should be doing?
Last time I checked getting thrown your direction isnt a bad thing as long as your defending them right?hence the reason why the broncos went for Bly so they can throw towards Champ Bailey right?

and why are you using his ravens statistics when talking about pass defensed and not on the ther stats that make deion far and away better?
But for arguments sake I agree with you we shouldnt use the two ravens year

In Deion without the ravens years he has 48 Int's for 12 years and Champ has 39 in 8 years. so all he needs is 9 more in 4 years to even deion. Which I'd assume you expect to be broken right?

You got me on the yards per interception Deion blows champ out of the water. But why the hell did you bring total TD's what does that have to do with anything with being a great Corner?does that mean devin hester will be a great corner?

and about decline for Champ Bailey he is going to be 30 this coming season. So I expect atleast 3 to 4 more seasons on top and in those 4 seasons (which will be comparable to Deion's 12 years) he will blow? Deion's INT to water so he more than match deion.

Okay maybe better hands might be a bit too much but Primetime sure as hell didnt have better hands. even though he played WR. It wasnt like he was great at it. If Champ Bailey spent time playing reciever you dont think he would be able to get 800 career yards?or 3 td's. Please..

Baseball huh?what does that have to do with anything?and wasnt it only for a few years?
what about factor in that deion played with probably 2 of the best teams ever assembled.
while Champ played with an above average offense(at best) and a pass ruch that needed rejects from the browns. shall we factor those in as well?
what about rule changes favouring the offense?

I know deion was that good.. I grew up trying to change my name to PRIMETIME. But I sure as hell don't think he was 10x better than the next db. he did have weaknesses to you know.

Oh and btw, lets just agree to disagree. I agree with you career wise (due to its longevity) that Deion has probably a better career, But I really do believe that Champ will have a better career or at least comparable to Deion when all is said and done

[NO-KG-AI]

Well I whiffed by accidentally including some of the Ravens stats, but your bringing up run support, is what prompted me to bring up total TD's, and it was more used to show his hands (receptions)

I mean you would rather a guy be thrown at the entire game??

Deion SHUT DOWN his side of the field. Do you realize how easy it is to gameplan when you know which side of the field the ball is being thrown to?

You act like Champ is some run stuffing safety, when he is just a guy that racks up plenty of tackles because he is thrown at, and isn't feared on the level of Deion. If you add Champ to a defense, he doesn't improve their running statistics, and that isn't relevant, because how many corners significantly impact the running game??

You should just admit you have never watched Deion now because when you say he is "probably" a better cover corner, you show your ignorance.

That's like saying he is a better "passer" as a QB, isn't shutting out the other teams best reciever more important than getting tackles??

[Ong_dynasty]

Well I whiffed by accidentally including some of the Ravens stats, but your bringing up run support, is what prompted me to bring up total TD's, and it was more used to show his hands (receptions)

I mean you would rather a guy be thrown at the entire game??

Deion SHUT DOWN his side of the field. Do you realize how easy it is to gameplan when you know which side of the field the ball is being thrown to?

You act like Champ is some run stuffing safety, when he is just a guy that racks up plenty of tackles because he is thrown at, and isn't feared on the level of Deion. If you add Champ to a defense, he doesn't improve their running statistics, and that isn't relevant, because how many corners significantly impact the running game??

You should just admit you have never watched Deion now because when you say he is "probably" a better cover corner, you show your ignorance.

That's like saying he is a better "passer" as a QB, isn't shutting out the other teams best reciever more important than getting tackles??

really the TD's really showed his great hands when almost half was through punt returns right?why didnt you bring that up?did you forget?since you have watched deion greatly you sure as hell should have put that in right?

Umm..I sure as hell ouldnt mind my corner getting thrown to if he is defending and int a great deal of it. If you are not getting thrown to you cant make plays on the ball. oh and dont make it look like champ gets abused.Tell me how many yards did manning or brady threw his side again the last year?while who were the qb's that actually had the audacity to try and what happened?

Well you show your ignorance by saying all champ has done is been thrown to and hence the almost 80 tackles...hmmm...did you even watch champ play last year!
and so your trying to tell me a tackling corner doesnt help a team defense?Im not saying greatly but it sure as hell helps.

and dont make it look like deion was this amazing corner that was never passed to at all...He racked up around 30 to 40 tackles a season. and those didnt come from stopping the rb now was it?

The only reason i said probably...is when you take into account rule changes it sure as hell favours deion..or are you going to deny that as well now? and really look at the denver line. If they actually had a decent line my god champ would look crazy...But lets not take those into account..because we all know football is only one on one and the help of your team mates is not needed right?

Look can we just agree to disagree as I would like other peoples view on this topic than yours and mines

[NO-KG-AI]

[quote="Ong_dynasty"][/quote]

Deion is an amazing corner that was never passed at.....

If you throw at Deion, its picked off and taken to the house.

I've been watching Champ since the Redskins days, I've seen him shut out out Joe Horn against my Saints, and lock down plenty of guys, and I also saw him get burned for 3 td's by Jerry porter, and basically get handled that whole year, to the point where I doubted he was even the best corner.

Luckily he bounced back and proved me wrong.

I don't think you understand defensive game planning, if you think it is better to have your corners attacked.

Deion takes away one side of the field, meaning that safety can come up in the box on virtually every play, and if you don't have another good corner the other safety can help over the top.

Just think about in the red zone, when you know which way the ball is going, its so easy to stop.

You don't base your defense around trying to make big plays, that's how you get burned (think Bengals) you play to completely shut them down, and win the ball control battle.

I dunno, maybe we have different philosophy on defense, but I don't want teams shooting for long plays, even if I have a great corner, because everyone gets beat eventually, and it will bite you in the ass.

Having a guy like Sanders that wasn't thrown at makes it easier, most of him not being thrown at was probably reputation and such, or getting in the QB's head much like a Chad Johnson.

I find it hard to believe that Champ is better, when Deion is a better cover guy, while balancing a baseball career, catching passes, and playing special teams, while Champ was just playing corner.

Edit: BTW I think this is a good debate, otherwise I wouldn't bother..... and someone else should definitely join in.

[MHZ]

I've always been really interested to know if they're is an 82games.com-esque stat on percentage of picks per ball thrown in a corner's direction.

My take is similar to what others have said. Deion is a better pure play maker, but I'd take Champ as a better complete package corner based on his help in the running game/tacking in general.

[Ong_dynasty]

I've been watching Champ since the Redskins days, I've seen him shut out out Joe Horn against my Saints, and lock down plenty of guys, and I also saw him get burned for 3 td's by Jerry porter, and basically get handled that whole year, to the point where I doubted he was even the best corner.

I remember that year, that was the year when ocho cinco burned him for like 200 yards as well.. and even I also you could ever consider him the top db at the time.

I don't think you understand defensive game planning, if you think it is better to have your corners attacked.

Deion takes away one side of the field, meaning that safety can come up in the box on virtually every play, and if you don't have another good corner the other safety can help over the top.

Just think about in the red zone, when you know which way the ball is going, its so easy to stop.

See I know where your coming from, it does help your team alot when no one passes to one side immensely. But at the end of the day you want your playmakers near the ball right?
The problem with a playmaking db is that when plays needs to be made, you cant make em if they dont throw to you. I remember last year I think it was the colts games a few more. where the broncos needed to make plays to stop manning moving forward and Champ was helpless because the ball wasnt going his way. and thats why they hope the addition of Dre Bly will make QB's throw a bit more to champ

You don't base your defense around trying to make big plays, that's how you get burned (think Bengals) you play to completely shut them down, and win the ball control battle.

I dunno, maybe we have different philosophy on defense, but I don't want teams shooting for long plays, even if I have a great corner, because everyone gets beat eventually, and it will bite you in the ass.

You call it gambling defense I call it being agressive. At the end of the day who normally wins the T.O battle wins the game right?

Having a guy like Sanders that wasn't thrown at makes it easier, most of him not being thrown at was probably reputation and such, or getting in the QB's head much like a Chad Johnson.

Oh heres my other problem with have a great one-dimensional DB. (same can be applied to champ in most cases as well) is that when you play against teams with average recievers, their impact really isnt that great. (think last years NE).

I find it hard to believe that Champ is better, when Deion is a better cover guy, while balancing a baseball career, catching passes, and playing special teams, while Champ was just playing corner.

I dont like bringing other factors personally into it because you have to start talking about the different teams they had to play in (I.E denver's front 4 and always needing to blitz for pressure) and the different rule changes. So I dont like using those factors in the argument, it opens to many things.

I have nothing against people choosing Primetime, hence I said is it silly for me to think that I ould choose Champ Bailey.
But I think for me its more Champ does everything right, his tecqnique is solid, loves to tackle and all and as a fan of the game I enjoy watching that. This reminds me of the old Randy Moss debates, and how I couldnt truly call him the best because his technique was horrible, couldnt run-block, etc, etc. I know there amazing players and probably the best. but it really leaves a sour taste in my mouth

[Elway=GOAT]

Champ was thrown to 41 times going into week, 17. With 10 picks at the end of the season, allowing only 1 TD, having twice as many tackles as a Shawn Merriman, A player who plays the linebacker position and is considered one of the best in the league, I think its safe to say Champ is the total package. He allowed one TD , that was when he was covering Gates last year, against the chargers. Champ is a better overal player than Sanders, on top of that he isnt the distration that Sanders was either. He is just as effective in pass coverage imo, and he is a much better tackler. Which, was the only knock on Sanders.

[Ong_dynasty]

Champ was thrown to 41 times going into week, 17. With 10 picks at the end of the season, allowing only 1 TD, having twice as many tackles as a Shawn Merriman, A player who plays the linebacker position and is considered one of the best in the league, I think its safe to say Champ is the total package. He allowed one TD , that was when he was covering Gates last year, against the chargers. Champ is a better overal player than Sanders, on top of that he isnt the distration that Sanders was either. He is just as effective in pass coverage imo, and he is a much better tackler. Which, was the only knock on Sanders.

Btw, I dont consider the Gates one a TD he gave, wernt they playing cover 3 and he tried and help in the middle?He just looked more foolish because it was him trying to make the play in the ball

[Elway=GOAT]

-= original quote snipped =-



Btw, I dont consider the Gates one a TD he gave, wernt they playing cover 3 and he tried and help in the middle?He just looked more foolish because it was him trying to make the play in the ball

Pretty much. But he was there so, I credited to Bailey getting scored on.

[Ong_dynasty]

Fair enough, (i still blame the safety) are you sure elway=goat that he was only passed 41 times going to week 17?
because if thats right lets say he was passed to around 45 times throughtout the year
thats 3.5x a game right?
and fox sports says he has a 24 Pass Defensed
+ 10 Int =34 so he only allowed 11 or so catches all of last season?
Im a big Champ Bailey fan but i didnt think his stats are that good.
since you probably watch every denver game, do you think thats about right?