Artest for Odom?

[KF10]

Kenny Thomas will have value in 2 years. (Expiring) That is his only value. Unless, we play Thomas and comes back to his solid production form. Which I doubt due to our PF surplus.

and thus he has value right now? lol.

man, the day has come.
bscott vs kings fans. bring it on!!

No. I said he will have value in 2 years.

[B-Scott]

Sackings 916

This is your opinon and your's or mine opinion can only be proven if the trade is made. I disagree about Lamar not being a very good offensive player. Everytime Lamar goes to the post he draws a double team and he is a much better passer operating from the post then Artest. The problem is the Lakers rarely used him that way like how he was used in Miami.

Being a very good post player isn't just about scoring. Van Gundy when he was with Miami used to use Lamar as a POST PASSER because at 6-10 he could see over the defense and find Wade, Eddie Jones slashing to the basket or kick out to shooters. Your underating his impact he will bring to the Kings as a rebounder.

The ability to rebound and flat out GO without having to pass to the PG will make the Kings a much better running team. Even if LO gives up to the PG Udrith there still a better fastbreaking team because they improve bigtime on the boards. Last season they relied to much on halfcourt sets because they couldn't get a rebound to get the running game going.

[microfib4thewin]

Kenny Thomas will have value in 2 years. (Expiring) That is his only value. Unless, we play Thomas and comes back to his solid production form. Which I doubt due to our PF surplus.

and thus he has value right now? lol.

man, the day has come.
bscott vs kings fans. bring it on!!

No. I said he will have value in 2 years.

Kwame has value now, and I don't think I need to make a survey on how people thought of that statement. If being an expiring this year means nothing for many, then don't expect anyone to believe they would trade for KT because they will have to wait 2 years.

[KF10]

Kwame has value now, and I don't think I need to make a survey on how people thought of that statement. If being an expiring this year means nothing for many, then don't expect anyone to believe they would trade for KT because they will have to wait 2 years.

I didn't said that. Where did I said that? At the moment, Kwame doesn't have any value. He is currently a FA. He holds value if a team desires his skill list/strength.

The only thing I said that, Thomas only value is that he expires two years from now. Currently, he is a bad contract but not THAT bad compare to 3/4 year contracts. He has value if a team is targeting the 2010 FA. There is numerous of teams that is targeting that. If we keep Thomas for a year, he is a hefty expiring contract. Well, Miller/SAR/Moore expires in 2010. So, in essence we have around $30 million worth of expirings by next year. I rather keep Thomas and other 2 year contracts we have and go along with Petrie's plan which is the 2010 FA Offseason.

Well, I don't know what are the Lakers are targeting in terms of FA class. But they are in a win-now situation. So, I can see why Thomas is not ideal for your team in terms of contract. But they get Ron Artest.

[eatyourchildren]

Sackings 916

This is your opinon and your's or mine opinion can only be proven if the trade is made. I disagree about Lamar not being a very good offensive player. Everytime Lamar goes to the post he draws a double team and he is a much better passer operating from the post then Artest. The problem is the Lakers rarely used him that way like how he was used in Miami.

Being a very good post player isn't just about scoring. Van Gundy when he was with Miami used to use Lamar as a POST PASSER because at 6-10 he could see over the defense and find Wade, Eddie Jones slashing to the basket or kick out to shooters. Your underating his impact he will bring to the Kings as a rebounder.

The ability to rebound and flat out GO without having to pass to the PG will make the Kings a much better running team. Even if LO gives up to the PG Udrith there still a better fastbreaking team because they improve bigtime on the boards. Last season they relied to much on halfcourt sets because they couldn't get a rebound to get the running game going.

Great, but the Kings aren't a running team. Think about what you're saying. You want Lamar to be the low-post go to guy as well as the fastbreaking guy as well as the leading scorer? He had that for all of one season and even then relied on his wings to provide a lot of backup.

[tsherkin]

Assuming the Lakers aren't obliged to give up Gasol, Bynum or Kobe in the deal, then it's pretty much "do it, Mitch," even if they have to take back Kenny Thomas' contract. Artest roughly approximates Scottie Pippen's role (less playmaking and rebounding, of course, but you follow the basic parallel) from the 90s Bulls to Kobe's Jordan.

You put a guy who's a borderline 20 ppg scorer (especially with his improving shot) and who defends that well and happens to be a fairly good pinch post scorer onto the triangle Lakers alongside Kobe? I mean, he's all the toughness and defense they need. He takes the best scorer each night, freeing Kobe to be more energetic as a help defender and as a scorer/playmaker, and he's also a lot more dangerous offensively when he's in an isolation scenario than Pau OR Odom.

This is one of those "at all costs" things for the Lakers aside from the three aforementioned pieces.

For Sacramento? *shrugs* Odom, like Artest now that he's picked up his option, is a large expiring contract, so they don't get tagged with salary cap hell... and he's a good player in the meantime. Better rebounder, can produce similar offensive production, better passer, not as good defensively... As a one-year stop-gap, he's not bad (of course, he'd almost assuredly be flipped at the deadline).

I think this works for both sides providing that KT goes to L.A. as well.

[Ballings7]

Except for Odom/Kings, agreed, tsherkin.

[bigbreakfast]

don't want it for LA. LA's identity is a smooth, passing offensive team with alot of chemistry, not sure how Artest will figure in the triangle. Getting Artest isn't going to change the Lakers' identitiy, we've all seen how getting one player (shaq) to change a team's identity (suns) backfired. Besides, this is a young team that improved a ton the past 2 years and got to the finals when no one expected them too! What's with the kneejerk reaction? There's no point in making drastic changes. And I don't even think Lakers lost because Odom couldn't defend the 3, the biggest reason why they lost was because of no defensive rebounding and interior defense, both of which Bynum will help with if healthy.

[Ballings7]

You're off on Artest, bigbreakfast. Ron Artest would do wonders for the Lakers on both ends, adding a whole new dimension.

[bigbreakfast]

You're off on Artest, bigbreakfast. Ron Artest would do wonders for the Lakers on both ends, adding a whole new dimension.

Artest is ccertainly a better defender than Odom, but Odom is a better rebounder and has shown to fit in the Lakers offense pretty well - both being a 3rd/4th option and moving the ball in the triangle - things I'm not sure Artest can handle as well. What it comes down to, I see getting Artest to be a high risk/high reward type of move, and given the fact that I think with a healthy Bynum, the current LA team can win, I wouldn't do anything that's remotely risky, it's not like the Lakers have plateaued as 2nd best.

[eatyourchildren]

You're off on Artest, bigbreakfast. Ron Artest would do wonders for the Lakers on both ends, adding a whole new dimension.

Artest is ccertainly a better defender than Odom, but Odom is a better rebounder and has shown to fit in the Lakers offense pretty well - both being a 3rd/4th option and moving the ball in the triangle - things I'm not sure Artest can handle as well. What it comes down to, I see getting Artest to be a high risk/high reward type of move, and given the fact that I think with a healthy Bynum, the current LA team can win, I wouldn't do anything that's remotely risky, it's not like the Lakers have plateaued as 2nd best.

Odom being a great rebounder at the 3 is useless. The Lakers are a great passing team that stalls at times because we only have one iso player. Adding artest--a good iso talent, will help that. Lakers arent run-gun, and aren't slow either. We're somewhere in the middle, and being a team that alternates between runouts and pounding the ball in a halfcourt set, adding a player like Artest wouldn't be the kind of identity change that adding a guy like Shaq would be. And guarding the 3spot has quickly become a need for most teams these days.

[bigbreakfast]

I wouldn't call being a great rebounder at the 3 useless, but I see your point. You're right the Lakers are a great passing team, and Artest doesn't seem to strike me as a good fit in that aspect, but it may be he just hasn't had a chance to show off those facets of his game. And I'm not sure if Artest's ability to produce from isos will mean much, when you have kobe, gasol, and even bynum on the team. I guess what it comes down to is that I feel the same team with a healthy Bynum should be the favorite for the championship for the next few years (you took a Celtics team to 6 games without your starting center who has been averaging 12/10/2 for 30+ games that he played), and that there's no reason to let go a known commodity (odom) for a risk, even if its a risk that many consider to be not great.

[tsherkin]

don't want it for LA. LA's identity is a smooth, passing offensive team with alot of chemistry, not sure how Artest will figure in the triangle. Getting Artest isn't going to change the Lakers' identitiy, we've all seen how getting one player (shaq) to change a team's identity (suns) backfired. Besides, this is a young team that improved a ton the past 2 years and got to the finals when no one expected them too! What's with the kneejerk reaction? There's no point in making drastic changes. And I don't even think Lakers lost because Odom couldn't defend the 3, the biggest reason why they lost was because of no defensive rebounding and interior defense, both of which Bynum will help with if healthy.

Artest will figure in as the best pinch post scorer on the team and the secondary isolation scorer. He's got a nicely developing jumper and a very good face-up game to go with his post game. He's also one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time. He would immeasurably improve the caliber of the Lakers, especially because he's not soft like Charmin Ultra.

Artest is certainly a better defender than Odom, but Odom is a better rebounder and has shown to fit in the Lakers offense pretty well - both being a 3rd/4th option and moving the ball in the triangle - things I'm not sure Artest can handle as well.

The rebounding gap isn't that much of a concern; he's a 5-7 rpg player and they're getting Bynum back, I wouldn't be worried about it. He's also tougher and a more consistent and aggressive scoring threat, which is of significant value to Los Angeles given how Pau and Odom both tend to fade in key stretches.

I think Artest is the difference between having a shot at the title (as they do now, especially if Bynum is healthy) and having a shot at a dynasty, which they do with Artest going Pippen-meets-Rodman for Phil Jackson.

[tsherkin]

And I'm not sure if Artest's ability to produce from isos will mean much, when you have kobe, gasol, and even bynum on the team.

I'm inclined to disagree, since Gasol has shown that his primary value is not as an isolation scorer but as a guy who "creates" off-ball, especially as a reverse-action jump shooter and a roller in the high sidescreen scenario. He can and occasionally does get pinch post and low post isos and that's fine, but Artest is of much higher caliber and is more of a legitimate second creator. Bynum is unproven, of course, but he also had a fairly limited impact as an isolation scorer. He has ability in that regard but is much more valuable right now as a peeler off picks, setting screens, grabbing offensive boards and generally being used as a post decoy or the ball-handler on post splits (at the foul line and in the corners), which is a lot of what centers do in the triangle if they aren't Shaq.

[tkb]

Artest will figure in as the best pinch post scorer on the team.

I'd say he has to settle for 2nd in that department since I think Kobe is (clearly) better in the pinch post than Artest is.

[Bgil]

Artest/Thomas for Odom, the value is fair.

How is the value fair when you're giving up a 19/6/4 former DPOY plus another player for a 14/9/4 player who has underachieved his entire career and was just exposed in the Finals?

There is no more perfect example of your ridiculous over-reliance on stats. People who actually watch the games know Odom >>> Artest regardless of mental issues (on both sides). Odom for Artest is severely overpaying on the part of the Lakers. The Kings have no leverage here; Artest walks at the end of the season for nothing while the Lakers standing pat with their current roster (including Sasha but probably not Turiaf) are a 65-win team and favorite for the title.

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I'm only in favor of trading Odom if it brings in starters at TWO positions ala a three way trade of Odom+Farmar+filler for Hinrich and Artest or Odom for Hinrich+Nocioni. Unless we get either one of those deals I'd rather just resign Sasha, make a run at Posey, and think long and hard about Ronny Turiaf.

for all the people saying Odom won't work at the three defensively just consider that we started Vlad and Walton at the three for 70 games this year and Odom is lightyears ahead of them defensively. Not to mention that Odom's defense is going to look pretty damn good at the three with Bynum and Gasol behind him. If Wally can work in Cleveland's defense than Odom can work in ours with any amount of proper coaching.

We'll have some issues spreading the floor but that's nothing that Lamar can't handle with an off-season of work. When he's on he can shoot the three at 35%+ and he'll of course see his annual post-all star break hot streak of 55% or so. We played Walton at the three a couple years back and faced the same problems we do now... Odom is better at everything that Walton so there's not much to worry about.
Odom's D will look great (with the help of Bynum and Gasol), Odom's shot will fall just like Walton's of two years ago, and the Lakers will win a championship and 68 games if they stay healthy.

[HarlemHeat37]

Odom>>>Artest? based on what? potential? because that's mostly what Odom is..a guy that MIGHT be able to use his full potential one day..right now, he's just an underachiever and he always will be IMO..

passing is pretty much the only thing Odom has going for him in this comparison..

Artest is FAR superior in creating his own offense..

Odom's driving ability is extremely overrated..the guy has no idea what to do when he's driving..Oberto shut him down when you guys played us in the conference finals, and Fab is far from the most mobile guy defensively..during that entire series, Odom would just jack up an off-balance shot instead of trying to draw the foul, and most of the other time he picked up offensive fouls..I always hear about Odom's "mismatch" with his driving ability, but I rarely see it used effectively..his points seem to come mostly from the offense, specifically Kobe's playmaking for the team..

posting up? I'll take Artest as well, and pretty easily..Odom's post up game is weak as **** and overrated as well..

shooting? Artest isn't the greatest shooter, but Odom's shot is extremely inconsistent..he was also shy about his jumper for most of what I saw in the playoffs..

defensively, there's no comparison..one guy is arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA, and the other guy is average, maybe slightly above average..he could be good depending on the matchup..either way, Artest has a significant advantage defensively..

Artest also has more of a chance to make the bigger impact on the game..whether it comes in a form of a great offensive output, or in the form of shutting down the opposing team's best wing player, Artest's impact is always better than Odom's..

[NO-KG-AI]

Wait, people who watch games would take Odom over Artest REGARDLESS OF MENTAL ISSUES??

I'd have to strongly disagree, especially when you factor in how Odom disappears for huge stretches.

[Bgil]

Artest is FAR superior in creating his own offense..

Actually, he's not. Artest is a lot more aggressive at creating his own offense, for better or worse, but not superior. That main difference is that once you give the ball to Artest in an iso situation you know he's not going to pass it back out. He'll chuck till the cows come home and Odom won't. As a first option that's probably a good thing (for Artest) but as a third or fourth option on the Lakers is clearly is not.

Lamar is decent at creating his own offense in a slow set offense but as the game speeds up there aren't many players better at finding the holes in the defense, getting loose rebounds, taking the ball coast to coast etc.

Odom's driving ability is extremely overrated..

Yes, but it's still better than Artest's driving ability.

his points seem to come mostly from the offense, specifically Kobe's playmaking for the team..

That's true this season and hence his dramatic increase in fg%. However, if you look at previous seasons you'll see that he's destroyed Duncan on that end of the floor with his driving ability. So much so that Pop started putting Manu/Finley on him and coming with the immediate double as opposed to single coverage with Duncan.

Like I said earlier, as the game gets faster and crazier Lamar gets better. He'd be absolutely perfect on PHX or GS for that reason... and against teams that let the game get wild and crazy he dominates. Against teams that play slow and methodical he shrinks.

posting up? I'll take Artest as well, and pretty easily..Odom's post up game is weak as **** and overrated as well..

His post game is still better than Artest's when you consider Odom's being guarding by PF's and Artest by SF's. Put Odom at SF and Ron at PF then compare post games... or put them both at SF.

shooting? Artest isn't the greatest shooter, but Odom's shot is extremely inconsistent..he was also shy about his jumper for most of what I saw in the playoffs..

Artest's jumper is just as inconsistent and he's much less shy about using it.

defensively, there's no comparison..

True.

Odom has a massive edge in rebounding. Not only will he grab more rebounds but he's also infinitely better at keeping big guys off the boards.

Odom is the better play maker. No explanation needed.

Odom's the more versatile player. LO is probably the only player in the league that can legitimately lineup at all 5 positions and has actually done it. If Bynum or Gasol miss any time next year the season is basically over with Artest at SF. Odom can slide to PF.

Odom's better in a high tempo offense. Already noted this several times but it should be mentioned again that the Lakers are a high-scoring fast-paced (but not running) team.

Odom's a better glue/garbage man. He moves better without the ball and has finally showed it doesn't need it in his hands to be effective. Hell, we didn't iso him at all this year or run any sets for him and he still averaged 14 points on 52.5%. His garbage man skills are only second in the league to Marion.
Artest needs the ball and has cried in the past when he didn't get it to his liking (even though he had prime JO on the team at the time).

Needless to say, Artest is also a nutcase and has the mainstream media on speed-dial for all those times he just "needs to get something off his chest". Odom's pretty chill, doesn't whine, and doesn't destroy team chemistry. He's also got the superior wardrobe and fashion sense.

It's not some mystery why Odom is near Marion/Jamison money and Artest is near old Peja/Hinrich money. The former are better players overall even if the latter are absolutely elite at their speciality.

[Bgil]

Wait, people who watch games would take Odom over Artest REGARDLESS OF MENTAL ISSUES??

I'd have to strongly disagree, especially when you factor in how Odom disappears for huge stretches.

Sometimes Kings fans wish Artest would disappear offensively. He's shot them out of numerous games.

Let's not forget that Head-to-Head, Odom dominates Artest on both ends. He got laughed at when he botched to the media about Kobe not being man enough to guard him and someone reminded him that Lamar was locking him down.