Robbed?: post your complaints

[dougthonus]

Look I won't argue that point. I know rules are rule but if Spearmon was initially deem "robbed" then why do it to Martina.

Because if he the IOC deemed that he was not robbed then Martina was not robbed either. Seriously, what possible case can you make that the rules should only apply to one guy and not the other?

[Dry_Fish]

Look I won't argue that point. I know rules are rule but if Spearmon was initially deem "robbed" then why do it to Martina.

Because if he the IOC deemed that he was not robbed then Martina was not robbed either. Seriously, what possible case can you make that the rules should only apply to one guy and not the other?

I am not arguing that. The IOC did it to the letter which shows their consistency. It's the U.S. Track that deem that Spearmon was "robbed" and protested. Once it was denied they pointed out Martina.
I don't think either guy should have been disqualfy.

[RockTHECasbah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivett_Gonda

[dougthonus]

I am not arguing that. The IOC did it to the letter which shows their consistency. It's the U.S. Track that deem that Spearmon was "robbed" and protested. Once it was denied they pointed out Martina.

So? The US's point was that everyone should play by the same rules. Again, I don't see why you would argue. If we were playing a friendly game of basketball and you called out of bounds on me for stepping on the end line, and I replied "come on, be serious this is a friendly game", and some neutral guy deemed that I had to give you the ball anyway, then you can bet your ass that if you stepped out of bounds I'd want the ball too.

A better question is why wouldn't the US want the other guy disqualified for what they did? Why wouldn't everyone who had to think about it want him disqualified? Why would any person, regardless of country, choose to have only one of the two disqualified for the same infraction? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't think either guy should have been disqualfy.

I don't really know enough about the rule to know how it's typically enforced to make that kind of call. I just want it to be called the same. I don't see why you would throw the rule out the window, if they broke the rule they should be disqualified.

[dougthonus]

You're right, that was the year the Soviet Union boycotted the olympics. 83 Gold medals is a pretty staggering number any way you look at it. The U.S probably would've still gotten over 40 gold medals that year even if the Soviet participated. Its just the way it is, the home country get a big boost in medal counts. Its not a secret. So why is everybody crying foul when the chinese are reaping the benefits of its homecrowd?

83 medals is staggering, but the Soviet Union had 80 medals the previous Olympics when the US boycotted, so it's not all that crazy. I mean now your whole argument is based on one data point that you presented. I'm not saying you are wrong because I didn't look at the numbers, but the US getting barely over 40 medals in Atlanta doesn't strike me as super evidence that we have a trend. There still may be a trend, I'd just want to see more data points than 1, and regardless of whether it's a trend, it's wrong.

Though I think that it's not really just the judging, but I think it's also the fact that a country hosting the Olympics probably pours a ton of money into their Olympic training program for their athletes for that year as well giving them better than normal competition.

[GQStylin]

I thought a few of the individual gymnastics scores were really weird for the women, but in the events I was concerned about the people who I felt got cheated ended up with the highest medals anyway, so it didn't seem to matter.

Of course the fact that China is competing with illegal athletes in the first place is bad enough that they robbed everyone who finished beneath their 13 year olds of a legit medal.

Americans lost fair and square and if they did lose to underagers, they should be embarassed. If the Americans didn't choke, they would have been right there with the Chinese.

Also I really don't get taekwondo judging. There's a bazillion kicks of which many land solidly on opponents yet they don't get scored. And then later on there are kicks which seem iffy that get scored. So confusing. Also if a person is up more than 2 pts in a match, that's usually a win since its so hard to score.

Canada protested their result after losing a suspect match but gets rejected.

[BlackMamba]

about the gymnastics loss vs. the "underage" chinese. us lost by 2 pts, i'm pretty sure that if sacramone didn't fall or the others stepped out of the limit they would have won, that has nothing to do with good or bad judging, that's poor performance.

[dougthonus]

Americans lost fair and square

No they didn't. How did they lose fair and square when China used a bunch of illegal athletes?

and if they did lose to underagers, they should be embarassed.

Why? Underage girls, properly trained, have very significant advantages, that's why countries lie about their ages to use them.

If the Americans didn't choke, they would have been right there with the Chinese.

They would have had a chance, but the Americans making a mistake does not validate the Chinese cheating. That's an absolutely ridiculous proposition and so logically and morally flawed that it's incomprehensible that someone would believe it. The Americans were good enough to beat every team that didn't cheat at the Olympics in the team all around.

[XcalibuR]

WTF? Where is the damn evidence that China used illegal athletes? Just because NBC is bsing about it doesn't make it true. What happened to innocent before proven guilty? This is so unamerican.

[GQStylin]

Americans lost fair and square

No they didn't. How did they lose fair and square when China used a bunch of illegal athletes?

Those Chinese gymnasts could be 10 for all that matters, but the point is if the IOC or whichever governing body for gymnasts verified and allowed those gymnasts to compete, then that's that. If the proof that those gymnasts are under 16 is so ironclad, then why hasn't it been given to the IOC?

If it was the Americans that came out on top in the team competition, I doubt there would be such a huge outcry like there is now. Sure there might be some mention still, but who cares now that the US won. I read there was mention of it before the olympics, yet it was after the US lost the team competition, that it seemed that this story really took off. Myself being not a huge gymnastics fan, I only heard of it the loudest after the team all-around.

So did the US or any other country not protest this and complain to the IOC before the olympics? And if they still allowed those Chinese gymnasts to compete, then just shutup and compete. What else can you do? Why don't the adults take the cue of the gymnasts in that regard? When Shawn and Nastia and the rest of team USA lost the team all-around did any of them bitch? No. They were class all the way and geniunely congratulated their opponents on the win. Did any gymnast come out and say afterwards they were cheated or hint they were at a disadvantage? No. Just the adults did.

So again if the US has such solid proof, then why didn't they take that proof to the IOC and have the Chinese taken out of the olympics?

[XcalibuR]

China was predicted by a lot of analysts of topping 40 golds anyways, so this was already expected and not a big surprise. There's no huge unexpected increase when China improves its gold medal count every year, and had the biggest number of athletes qualifying this year.

[dougthonus]

WTF? Where is the damn evidence that China used illegal athletes? Just because NBC is bsing about it doesn't make it true. What happened to innocent before proven guilty? This is so unamerican.

The evidence was on their own documents of the girls age in all their own local tournaments and newspapers prior to the Olympics which have all been uncovered and hence been changed.

Those Chinese gymnasts could be 10 for all that matters, but the point is if the IOC or whichever governing body for gymnasts verified and allowed those gymnasts to compete, then that's that. If the proof that those gymnasts are under 16 is so ironclad, then why hasn't it been given to the IOC?

IOC just asked for the passports. Government passports trump three years of ages entered on their local tournaments and ages mentioned in Chinese newspapers for three years regardless of how consistently they were entered and then later doctored up. The problem is that there is no way for the IOC to bust China. China just forged the only official documents that exists. All that's left for the IOC to do is ask China if they are being honest. That's it.

If it was the Americans that came out on top in the team competition, I doubt there would be such a huge outcry like there is now. Sure there might be some mention still, but who cares now that the US won. I read there was mention of it before the olympics, yet it was after the US lost the team competition, that it seemed that this story really took off. Myself being not a huge gymnastics fan, I only heard of it the loudest after the team all-around.

Certainly I would care less if China cheated if it didn't effect the team I was rooting for. No duh. If Sweden or Romania or some other country also cheated then I didn't notice. The US coaches protested against the Chinese gymnasts before the Olympics started. No crap that the American media will focus more on the story since China won. If they cheated and finished 12th then I'm sure the outcry would be less as would the impact of the cheating.

So did the US or any other country not protest this and complain to the IOC before the olympics? And if they still allowed those Chinese gymnasts to compete, then just shutup and compete. What else can you do? Why don't the adults take the cue of the gymnasts in that regard? When Shawn and Nastia and the rest of team USA lost the team all-around did any of them bitch? No. They were class all the way and geniunely congratulated their opponents on the win. Did any gymnast come out and say afterwards they were cheated or hint they were at a disadvantage? No. Just the adults did.

Yes they did, and they did go out and compete. What's your point? Did you see the US boycott gymnastics? Neither did I?

So because the US kids had class means the fact that the Chinese government cheated doesn't matter? That's almost as brilliant as suggesting that if the US had done better they could have won even though China cheated.

Maybe instead of worrying about how the US reacted to China cheating we should focus on the fact that China cheated.

[dougthonus]

It's worth remembering, if you forgot or didn't know, that China has previously used underage gymnasts that had valid passports who then later on admitted that their papers were forged. They've also well known to forge papers for basketball as well.

Let's recap here:
1) China has a history of forging athletes ages in multiple sports.
2) That history includes this sport and has been admitted to by past athletes.
3) 3 of their athletes had previously been reported to be two to three years younger in local papers and provincial tournament entry paperwork

Your conclusion:
China didn't cheat.

If you believe that, okay.

If you think it's stupid to whine about it, then okay. Personally, I think given the fact that China admitted to it before and obviously did it again that they should be banned from Gymnastics next Olympics. I don't see how they can openly cheat to the point where EVERYONE knows it's happening and it's been admitted to in the past and they aren't punished.

[Blame Rasho]

China who has no history with boxing. The sport was banned there for years has more fighters in metal contention than the Cubans.

[XcalibuR]

The evidence was on their own documents of the girls age in all their own local tournaments and newspapers prior to the Olympics which have all been uncovered and hence been changed.

I need to see that link. I remember some online newspaperthat had the girl's age listed wrong and then corrected it immediately, but I don't remember any official document that stated the girl's ages were different.

Oh and this video:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzc5Mjc2MTI=.html

The girl said in the interview that she was 12, which would put her at the correct age this year (interview was in 2003). She was one of the three girls (Jiang Yu Yuan) who NBC is trying to tell us that shes the wrong age. I got this off of another board, so I'm not saying I'm providing conclusive evidence (just like you). Just throwing it out there.

[XcalibuR]

China who has no history with boxing. The sport was banned there for years has more fighters in metal contention than the Cubans.

China got like 5 medals at the 2007 World Amateur Boxing Championships, not the best, but its certainly not out of the realm of possibility for them to have a breakout performance this year or Cubans just sucking.

[Blame Rasho]

The evidence was on their own documents of the girls age in all their own local tournaments and newspapers prior to the Olympics which have all been uncovered and hence been changed.

I need to see that link. I remember some online newspaperthat had the girl's age listed wrong and then corrected it immediately, but I don't remember any official document that stated the girl's ages were different.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijin ... &type=lgns

BEIJING (AP)—The International Olympic Committee’s top medical official said Friday that “age manipulation” is difficult to detect and that tests purporting to pinpoint a person’s age can be off by as much as two years.

Arne Ljungqvist, head of the IOC medical commission spoke two days after China’s controversial gold medal in women’s team gymnastics.

Gymnasts must be 16 during the Olympic year to be eligible for the games. Online records and newspaper accounts suggest three Chinese gymnasts—He Kexin, Jiang Yuyuan and Jang Yilin—may be underage, but Chinese passport records show they meet the age rules.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijin ... &type=lgns

BEIJING (AP)—Just nine months before the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese government’s news agency, Xinhua, reported that gymnast He Kexin was 13, which would have made her ineligible to be on the team that won a gold medal this week.

In its report Nov. 3, Xinhua identified He as one of “10 big new stars” who made a splash at China’s Cities Games. It gave her age as 13 and reported that she beat Yang Yilin on the uneven bars at those games. In the final, “this little girl” pulled off a difficult release move on the bars known as the Li Na, named for another Chinese gymnast, Xinhua said in the report, which appeared on one of its Web sites, http://www.hb.xinhuanet.com

The Associated Press found the Xinhua report on the site Thursday morning and saved a copy of the page. Later that afternoon, the Web site was still working but the page was no longer accessible. Sports editors at the state-run news agency would not comment for publication.

Damning enough?

[Blame Rasho]

China who has no history with boxing. The sport was banned there for years has more fighters in metal contention than the Cubans.

China got like 5 medals at the 2007 World Amateur Boxing Championships, not the best, but its certainly not out of the realm of possibility for them to have a breakout performance this year or Cubans just sucking.

I actually follow boxing and seen the fights. The scoring has been absolutely horriable. They don't count body punches and I have seen various times that knockdown have not even been awarded points. China boxers don't punch, they slap. It is embarrassing.

Cubans do not suck at boxing, it is their livelihood. They have been screwed alongside with the Russians, another boxing powerhouse.

[Yao_noodle]

feel better now? or whining all the way to the next Olympics?

[XcalibuR]

The evidence was on their own documents of the girls age in all their own local tournaments and newspapers prior to the Olympics which have all been uncovered and hence been changed.

I need to see that link. I remember some online newspaperthat had the girl's age listed wrong and then corrected it immediately, but I don't remember any official document that stated the girl's ages were different.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijin ... &type=lgns

BEIJING (AP)—The International Olympic Committee’s top medical official said Friday that “age manipulation” is difficult to detect and that tests purporting to pinpoint a person’s age can be off by as much as two years.

Arne Ljungqvist, head of the IOC medical commission spoke two days after China’s controversial gold medal in women’s team gymnastics.

Gymnasts must be 16 during the Olympic year to be eligible for the games. Online records and newspaper accounts suggest three Chinese gymnasts—He Kexin, Jiang Yuyuan and Jang Yilin—may be underage, but Chinese passport records show they meet the age rules.

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijin ... &type=lgns

BEIJING (AP)—Just nine months before the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese government’s news agency, Xinhua, reported that gymnast He Kexin was 13, which would have made her ineligible to be on the team that won a gold medal this week.

In its report Nov. 3, Xinhua identified He as one of “10 big new stars” who made a splash at China’s Cities Games. It gave her age as 13 and reported that she beat Yang Yilin on the uneven bars at those games. In the final, “this little girl” pulled off a difficult release move on the bars known as the Li Na, named for another Chinese gymnast, Xinhua said in the report, which appeared on one of its Web sites, http://www.hb.xinhuanet.com

The Associated Press found the Xinhua report on the site Thursday morning and saved a copy of the page. Later that afternoon, the Web site was still working but the page was no longer accessible. Sports editors at the state-run news agency would not comment for publication.

Damning enough?

Thats the one i was talking about and it is not daming evidence at all. If ESPN incorrectly said Shawn Johnson was 11, would you take their word over the US gymnastics authorities?