All-Time Cornerbacks Discussion

Post #1 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Tue Jun 5, 2007 7:06 am

Please read the general project page and post any related questions there. The current plan will be to let the discussion go 2 weeks with voting being open the last 4 days of that period. This may change however seeing as how this is a brand new board and it may take some time before awareness is where Doc would like it.

The all-time ranking list will be 15 players long.

Post #2 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Tue Jun 5, 2007 7:33 am

Some key names everyone should consider along with accolades. Please don't feel limited by this list, but do utilize unless you are already aware of this information.

Sources:

archive.sportingnews.com/nfl/100/list-complete.html
hickoksports.com
pro-football-reference.com
databasefootball.com

Guys in TSN's Top 100:

Deion Sanders
Rookie: 1989
TSN All-Time Ranking: 37
NFL All-Pro: 7 years
Pro Bowl: 8 years
All-1990s Decade Team

Rod Woodson
Rookie: 1987
TSN All-Time Ranking: 87
NFL All-Pro: 5
Pro Bowl: 11
All-1990's Decade Team

Herb Adderly
Rookie: 1961
TSN All-Time Ranking: 45
NFL All-Pro: 5
Pro Bowl: 5
Hall of Fame
All-1960's Decade Team

Dick Lane
Rookie: 1952
TSN All-Time Ranking: 19
NFL All-Pro: 5
Pro Bowl: 7
Hall of Fame
All-1950's Decade Team

Mike Haynes
Rookie: 1975
TSN All-Time Ranking: 94
NFL All-Pro: 4
Pro Bowl: 9
Hall of Fame
All-1980's Decade Team

Willie Brown
Rookie: 1963
TSN All-Time Ranking: 50
NFL All-Pro: 4
Pro Bowl: 9
Hall of Fame

Lem Barney
Rookie: 1967
TSN All-Time Ranking: 97
NFL All-Pro: 2
Pro Bowl: 7
Hall of Fame
All-1960 Decade Team

Darrel Green
Rookie: 1983
TSN All-Time Ranking: 81
NFL All-Pro: 3
Pro Bowl: 7
All-1990's Decade Team

Other notable Hall of Famers:

Roger Wehrli
Rookie: 1969
NFL All-Pro: 4
Pro Bowl: 7
Hall of Fame

Jimmy Johnson
Rookie: 1961
NFL All-Pro: 3
Pro Bowl: 5
Hall of Fame
All-1970's Decade Team

Recent Players

Champ Bailey
Rookie: 1999
NFL All-Pro: 3
Pro Bowl: 6

Ronde Barber
Rookie: 1997
NFL All-Pro: 3
Pro Bowl: 4

Aeneas Williams
Rookie: 1991
NFL All-Pro: 4
Pro Bowl: 8

Ty Law
Rookie: 1995
NFL All-Pro: 2
Pro Bowl: 4

Sam Madison
Rookie: 1997
NFL All-Pro: 2
Pro Bowl: 3

That's 15, but their are plenty more worthy names, discuss.

Post #3 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:06 am

I personally have Deion Sanders and Rod Woodson as my 1 and 2, but after that it gets more difficult for me, and I think a lot goes to preference.

Thoughts?? Icness?? BBJ? J. Kim??

Any advanced stats that can put me in my place?? anything at all??

Post #4 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:23 pm

Post #5 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:41 pm

Also to consider:

Eric Allen

Post #6 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:06 pm

Preliminary list:

Note: for simplicity

Post #7 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:28 pm

The only problem I have with Champ is, that he is too up and down for my tastes.

Some season's he is by far the best CB, and some season's he gets beat a lot, and doesn't even seem to be the best CB.

I can remember more instances of Champ getting beat, and I haven't seen as many of his games as I did Deion.

Reks · Post #8 » by **Reks** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:22 pm

I agree Champ should be 3rd
the guy is a shoe-in for the HOF

Post #9 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:17 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:I can remember more instances of Champ getting beat, and I haven't seen as many of his games as I did Deion.

I dunno, Deion was pretty susceptible at times.

Post #10 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:29 am

Basketball Jesus wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I dunno, Deion was pretty susceptible at times.

As is everyone to an extent, but I just never got the feeling when Champ is on the field like when Deion is.....

Like if you throw at Deion, you KNOW he's taking your lunch.

Post #11 » by **J.Kim** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:01 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

As is everyone to an extent, but I just never got the feeling when Champ is on the field like when Deion is.....

Like if you throw at Deion, you KNOW he's taking your lunch.

Champ is at that stage right now...and considering the fact that the Modern Passing Offence is at its zenith, I'd say Champ has been equally, if not more so, impressive than Deion ever was, at this moment.

Post #12 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:11 am

J.Kim wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Champ is at that stage right now...and considering the fact that the Modern Passing Offence is at its zenith, I'd say Champ has been equally, if not more so, impressive than Deion ever was, at this moment.

I still would disagree, I don't have any stats, but from what I can tell, he gets thrown at a hell of a lot more, but he has been phenomenal in these last two years.

Before that, it always seemed like he went, best DB one year, down next year, struggling year, up year, down year......

It's just that year in and year out, he hasn't played like the best DB in they league, though he would still be everyone's pick.

I'm a bigger fan of Champ's than I am of Deion, but I value the ability to complete shutdown a guy more so than Champ's cover skills, and tackling.

It's like TD Vs. KG. KG is more versatile and can do a lot more things, but TD does the main function better, and for a position like CB where you can mask the players run support better, the coverage skill is at a premium.

Just looking at the amount of int's and tackles shows me how much more Champ is attacked than Deion was, which if you are into the whole forcing turnover D, and making your opponent take risks, that's fine and dandy, but if you are like me, and like forcing the opponent to be one dimensional or predictable, then I take Deion.

Deion's cover skills> Champ's

Champ's everything else>>>> Deion's everything else.

I guess it's a matter of preference, but I value the cover skill MUCH higher than anything else out of a cornerback.

Also I want to see how much Champ's per season numbers drop as he ages, since his stats haven't had time to diminish.

Post #13 » by **J.Kim** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:40 am

NO-KG-AI wrote:
J.Kim wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Champ is at that stage right now...and considering the fact that the Modern Passing Offence is at its zenith, I'd say Champ has been equally, if not more so, impressive than Deion ever was, at this moment.

I still would disagree, I don't have any stats, but from what I can tell, he gets thrown at a hell of a lot more, but he has been phenomenal in these last two years.

Before that, it always seemed like he went, best DB one year, down next year, struggling year, up year, down year......

It's just that year in and year out, he hasn't played like the best DB in they league, though he would still be everyone's pick.

I'm a bigger fan of Champ's than I am of Deion, but I value the ability to complete shutdown a guy more so than Champ's cover skills, and tackling.

It's like TD Vs. KG. KG is more versatile and can do a lot more things, but TD does the main function better, and for a position like CB where you can mask the players run support better, the coverage skill is at a premium.

Just looking at the amount of int's and tackles shows me how much more Champ is attacked than Deion was, which if you are into the whole forcing turnover D, and making your opponent take risks, that's fine and dandy, but if you are like me, and like forcing the opponent to be one dimensional or predictable, then I take Deion.

Deion's cover skills> Champ's

Champ's everything else>>>> Deion's everything else.

I guess it's a matter of preference, but I value the cover skill MUCH higher than anything else out of a cornerback.

Also I want to see how much Champ's per season numbers drop as he ages, since his stats haven't had time to diminish.

That's the thing... in my assumption that the Passing offence is currently at its zenith, I'm also assuming that Offences today are passing more often than any other period in the NFL. And because of this, it is quite plausible to say that Champ, over the course of a season, will be picked on more than Deion would have back in the 90s, because of the discrepancy in the volume of passes in a season.

Using this as a mitigating factor, it's my belief that Champ, at his current, at this phase in his career, at this precise moment, is better than Deion ever was.

Post #14 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:33 am

Votin' time!

Post #15 » by **Basketball Jesus** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:11 pm

Doc, use my prelim list but make Butler #15. Thanks.

Post #16 » by **Harry Palmer** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:54 am

J.Kim wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

That's the thing... in my assumption that the Passing offence is currently at its zenith, I'm also assuming that Offences today are passing more often than any other period in the NFL. And because of this, it is quite plausible to say that Champ, over the course of a season, will be picked on more than Deion would have back in the 90s, because of the discrepancy in the volume of passes in a season.

Using this as a mitigating factor, it's my belief that Champ, at his current, at this phase in his career, at this precise moment, is better than Deion ever was.

Oy vey.

No. Sanders shied away from most tackling other than wraps, and drifted if anything like a zone was contemplated, but is by a mile the best man up defender I've ever seen. Not only is Bailey not as good as Sanders, he isn't as good as Woodson, and it's also not that close, imo.

But in today's passing offense, opponants go at Sanders just as much as they used to; only if they have to.

The guy was a man playing with boys out there.

Wizards2Lottery · Post #17 » by **Wizards2Lottery** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:39 pm

Some of you are really underrating Darrell Green. He was a dominant corner for a longer time than any of the guys you've mentioned. Even at age 40 he could have started for many teams in the league.

Unlike Deion he was a complete player. He could tackle, he could pick it off and he could shut down the entire side of a field. While Deion was the much better cover man, DG had him in terms of versitality.

Green is a top 3 corner of all time and Champ Bailey isn't. Champ is great but his career hasn't been as consistent as some think. He was definetly not the beast he is in Denver right now in Washington. If Champ can do this for about 5 more years, please go ahead and mention him along with the greats.

NeedsMoreCheese · Post #18 » by **NeedsMoreCheese** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:35 am

Gilbert0Arenas wrote:Some of you are really underrating Darrell Green. He was a dominant corner for a longer time than any of the guys you've mentioned. Even at age 40 he could have started for many teams in the league.

Unlike Deion he was a complete player. He could tackle, he could pick it off and he could shut down the entire side of a field. While Deion was the much better cover man, DG had him in terms of versitality.

Green is a top 3 corner of all time and Champ Bailey isn't. Champ is great but his career hasn't been as consistent as some think. He was definetly not the beast he is in Denver right now in Washington. If Champ can do this for about 5 more years, please go ahead and mention him along with the greats.

Sure the guy was productive for a long time but he wasnt dominant all that long (if ever).

alwayslovetheceltics · Post #19 » by **alwayslovetheceltics** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:02 pm

1. Deon 2. Rod Woodson/ Champ Bailey- I can't pick.

Wizards2Lottery · Post #20 » by **Wizards2Lottery** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:08 pm

Kohl Is A Mome wrote:Sure the guy was productive for a long time but he wasnt dominant all that long (if ever).

He was dominant his first ten seasons in the NFL. His impact on the Redskins in the 80's was huge. I wouldn't call him dominant post 94 because he struggled against Michael Irvin but thats the only player over his career who gave him troubles.

DG was as clutch as they came. Whats best about him is that his best games came in the playoffs and other crucial games. He was one of the best for as long as a decade, declined a bit but even in his last season, he was better than quite a lot in the league.