1/12/2009 Woelfel: Conley deal waiting for Herb (poll added)

[bigkurty]

Although I like your team I'm not a Bucks fan( Seattle Sonics actually, not OKC). I've been around this site for a long time and one thing I have consistantly read over the years in your forum is how much the majority of your fans would like to see Dan Gadzuric moved.

So out of curiousity I'll ask this. If Memphis was willing to throw in Hakim Warrick and his expiring contract, plus Darko Milicic and his expiring next season contract, would you be willing to trade Dan Gadzuric as long as Luc Mbah A Moute was included in the deal? No substitutes.

I'm just curious because I know how much you guys like Mbah A Moute and I want to see how far you would go to trade Gadzuric. And for the record I love Mbah A Moute's game and I think without a doubt he was the steal of the 2008 draft.

Hell No. That's my answer and I don't think I will be changing my mind anytime soon.

[aboveAverage]

Although I like your team I'm not a Bucks fan( Seattle Sonics actually, not OKC). I've been around this site for a long time and one thing I have consistantly read over the years in your forum is how much the majority of your fans would like to see Dan Gadzuric moved.

So out of curiousity I'll ask this. If Memphis was willing to throw in Hakim Warrick and his expiring contract, plus Darko Milicic and his expiring next season contract, would you be willing to trade Dan Gadzuric as long as Luc Mbah A Moute was included in the deal? No substitutes.

I'm just curious because I know how much you guys like Mbah A Moute and I want to see how far you would go to trade Gadzuric. And for the record I love Mbah A Moute's game and I think without a doubt he was the steal of the 2008 draft.

At this point, Mbah a Moute is almost untouchable. He is a core player now, and it would take a very good offer for Hammond to even consider trading him.

[GrandAdmiralDan]

Don't see Ramon costing more than $3.8M? On what planet? Hammond already said he gets more calls for Sessions than anyone on the roster.

I can guarantee Sessions gets more than $3.8M per year.

I was in the room when Hammond said that. He immediately followed that up by asking people if they knew one of the primary reasons why he got so many calls for Sessions. Hammond's answer was "his contract" and that it would be quite different if Sessions happened to be making $4 mil.

So I don't think that I would point to that Sessions answer from the Hammond Q&A as bolstering your point in that way.

Assuming Sessions will get more than $3.8 mil per year is not a bad assumption at all, but power4wardjinx was referring to Sessions' salary NEXT season, which could still be $3.8 mil or a few hundred k less, like he says, assuming a fairly typical contract structure, even if Sessions contract averages out to $3.8 mil or more per year.

Although I like your team I'm not a Bucks fan( Seattle Sonics actually, not OKC). I've been around this site for a long time and one thing I have consistantly read over the years in your forum is how much the majority of your fans would like to see Dan Gadzuric moved.

So out of curiousity I'll ask this. If Memphis was willing to throw in Hakim Warrick and his expiring contract, plus Darko Milicic and his expiring next season contract, would you be willing to trade Dan Gadzuric as long as Luc Mbah A Moute was included in the deal? No substitutes.

I'm just curious because I know how much you guys like Mbah A Moute and I want to see how far you would go to trade Gadzuric. And for the record I love Mbah A Moute's game and I think without a doubt he was the steal of the 2008 draft.

Not a chance.
If we don't get 99% or higher agreement on this here, I'd be shocked

Only the very respectful manner in which you posed this question (thanks for that, BTW) is going to save you from getting savaged for asking that

[EastSideBucksFan]

I'd trade Moute for KG.....maybe

[Ill-yasova]

How did he convince you? What was the rationale?

Outside of just Conley's skillset, basically:

1. We could stand to not make this deal, missing a potential star PG, while also losing Ramon because of financial reasons this upcoming offseason if we don't get our books in order
2. The fact that we both agreed that neither Sessions nor Alexander will be a superstar player, so the risk of trading a star is low
3. Conley's fit with our current roster, more specifically the fact that he would be playing with a big man he could play off of, along with also being able to be developed under Skiles, a good teacher of basketball.

But I think it comes back to finances quite a bit. I think Sessions has proven to be a better player than Conley so far (though not by much), but I think all of that is negated by the fact that we can get Conley, a player who is near as good now with just as much potential, for three years on a rookie scale to see what we have there.

What is Connley's skill set? He is a 40% shooter with a low assist total and a decent to sub par defender. But hey, he can dribble like a globe trotter, so where do I sign up for this. Let's trade two promising young guys for a guy who can't get minutes over KYLE LOWRY.
Plus if we wanna say that Skiles could wave a magic wand and develop Conley, why couldn't he do the same for Sessions. We are giving up the best player in this deal and throwing in a high ceiling project for on player who falls somewhere in between the two guys we are giving up.

[LUKE23]

What is Connley's skill set? He is a 40% shooter with a low assist total and a decent to sub par defender. But hey, he can dribble like a globe trotter, so where do I sign up for this. Let's trade two promising young guys for a guy who can't get minutes over KYLE LOWRY.

Conley is a better ball-handler, defender, outside shooter, and facilitator of offense than Sessions (notice I didn't say passing, I said facilitator of offense).

Sessions is a better penetrator and pure scorer than Conley is, along with have the physical advantage of more size/better frame.

Regarding your comment on defense, have you been watching Sessions at all this season? Conley is without a doubt a better defender than Ramon.

Regarding not getting starting minutes ahead of Kyle Lowry, I can just as easy say, "Ramon Sessions isn't getting minutes over Luke f'ing Ridnour". Neither of the statements hold much water at all, nor really make any point.

Neither guy is light years ahead of the other in terms of projecting future talent. If Hammond makes the deal, he obviously believes Conley's ceiling is higher than Ramon's. But to act like Conley is a bum and Sessions is has star potential, well, that is inaccurate as hell.

[aboveAverage]

What is Connley's skill set? He is a 40% shooter with a low assist total and a decent to sub par defender. But hey, he can dribble like a globe trotter, so where do I sign up for this. Let's trade two promising young guys for a guy who can't get minutes over KYLE LOWRY.

Conley is a better ball-handler, defender, outside shooter, and facilitator of offense than Sessions (notice I didn't say passing, I said facilitator of offense).

Sessions is a better penetrator and pure scorer than Conley is, along with have the physical advantage of more size/better frame.

Regarding your comment on defense, have you been watching Sessions at all this season? Conley is without a doubt a better defender than Ramon.

Regarding not getting starting minutes ahead of Kyle Lowry, I can just as easy say, "Ramon Sessions isn't getting minutes over Luke f'ing Ridnour". Neither of the statements hold much water at all, nor really make any point.

Neither guy is light years ahead of the other in terms of projecting future talent. If Hammond makes the deal, he obviously believes Conley's ceiling is higher than Ramon's. But to act like Conley is a bum and Sessions is has star potential, well, that is inaccurate as hell.

I agree with most of your points, but Conley is not a better outside shooter nor do I think he's a better defender than Sessions.

[bigkurty]

What is Connley's skill set? He is a 40% shooter with a low assist total and a decent to sub par defender. But hey, he can dribble like a globe trotter, so where do I sign up for this. Let's trade two promising young guys for a guy who can't get minutes over KYLE LOWRY.
Plus if we wanna say that Skiles could wave a magic wand and develop Conley, why couldn't he do the same for Sessions. We are giving up the best player in this deal and throwing in a high ceiling project for on player who falls somewhere in between the two guys we are giving up.

See just when I think I can be talked into this deal, I get slapped in the face with these FACTS or I remember them myself and I can't help but think, what the F are we doing? The only thing saving me is that whole wins produced thing and Sessions poor play lately. But even then, at least he has played good much more often than Conley to even be able to call his play lately poor. Aghh, this trade has got me so confused. I have no idea what I would do if I were Hammond.

[Ill-yasova]

What is Connley's skill set? He is a 40% shooter with a low assist total and a decent to sub par defender. But hey, he can dribble like a globe trotter, so where do I sign up for this. Let's trade two promising young guys for a guy who can't get minutes over KYLE LOWRY.

Conley is a better ball-handler, defender, outside shooter, and facilitator of offense than Sessions (notice I didn't say passing, I said facilitator of offense).

Sessions is a better penetrator and pure scorer than Conley is, along with have the physical advantage of more size/better frame.

Regarding your comment on defense, have you been watching Sessions at all this season? Conley is without a doubt a better defender than Ramon.

Regarding not getting starting minutes ahead of Kyle Lowry, I can just as easy say, "Ramon Sessions isn't getting minutes over Luke f'ing Ridnour". Neither of the statements hold much water at all, nor really make any point.


Neither guy is light years ahead of the other in terms of projecting future talent. If Hammond makes the deal, he obviously believes Conley's ceiling is higher than Ramon's. But to act like Conley is a bum and Sessions is has star potential, well, that is inaccurate as hell.

Not star potential, but certainly more potential than Conley. Ramon in the starter role put up very good numbers ( when Luke was out). Conley in the starter role didn't accomplish much at all. It just doesn't make sense.

Also even though Conley may be a slignhtly better outside shooter. Who has a better FG%? That's what matters

[LUKE23]

Not star potential, but certainly more potential than Conley. Ramon in the starter role put up very good numbers ( when Luke was out). Conley in the starter role didn't accomplish much at all. It just doesn't make sense.

Also even though Conley may be a slignhtly better outside shooter. Who has a better FG%? That's what matters

The FG%'s are close, and both players are 1 1/2 years in. I'm not going to call Sessions a better shooter when he's 1.6% ahead of Conley, when he also shoots a lot of his shots within a close proximity of the rim. If you want to get nitpicky, Ramon is a more efficient shooter, Conley is a better jumpshooter as of today.

Conley did have a very good stretch last season towards the end as well.

And again, you're ignoring the fact that this trade is not only talent vs. talent, it's also financial. Would you rather have no Sessions but have Conley, or have neither? Having neither is a very realistic scenario if we let Sessions go to RFA. We're at $64.7M committed next year, and that is assuming we lose CV to another teams offer sheet.

The players are pretty much even in terms of levels of potential.

[bigkurty]

Also even though Conley may be a slignhtly better outside shooter. Who has a better FG%? That's what matters

I agree. When Conley was drafted, one of his skills was he could finish in traffic at the rim. Turns out Sessions is better at that. Then even if you want to talk about range, Sessions can add range. Ford did it, why can't Sessions. People say Conley was born with dribbling skills, bologna. He just busted his butt in the gym working on them is all. Take Sessions, send him to Abunassar in the offseason and have him work on ball handling and shooting. Do that for a few years in a row and you have yourself a very good PG. The only thing holding him back is his own work ethic.

[LUKE23]

I agree with most of your points, but Conley is not a better outside shooter nor do I think he's a better defender than Sessions.

Sessions career 3 point %: 21.9
Conley's career 3 point %: 33.1

I'm not going to do it, but I'm guessing if you went to 82games.com and looked at their splits, Conley would shoot a better % on perimeter shots as well.

Regarding defense, I'm guessing you're in the vast minority on that one. Sessions has easily been our worst guard defender this year. Don't take this as me being down on him, I still like Sessions quite a bit, but his D has been horrendous all season.

[Ill-yasova]

Not star potential, but certainly more potential than Conley. Ramon in the starter role put up very good numbers ( when Luke was out). Conley in the starter role didn't accomplish much at all. It just doesn't make sense.

Also even though Conley may be a slignhtly better outside shooter. Who has a better FG%? That's what matters

The FG%'s are close, and both players are 1 1/2 years in. I'm not going to call Sessions a better shooter when he's 1.6% ahead of Conley, when he also shoots a lot of his shots within a close proximity of the rim. If you want to get nitpicky, Ramon is a more efficient shooter, Conley is a better jumpshooter as of today.

Conley did have a very good stretch last season towards the end as well.

And again, you're ignoring the fact that this trade is not only talent vs. talent, it's also financial. Would you rather have no Sessions but have Conley, or have neither? Having neither is a very realistic scenario if we let Sessions go to RFA. We're at $64.7M committed next year, and that is assuming we lose CV to another teams offer sheet.

The players are pretty much even in terms of levels of potential.

Sessions FG% 44 Conley 41.4. Sessions also has a better Ass/TO ratio, more points, more assists, more steals, and a higher Eff rating. Also, I don't think the difference in defense is enough to justify anything. Also why should Sessions FG% be disregarded because he shoots more shots closer to the rim? Last time I checked that was a good thing.

[LUKE23]

Sessions FG% 44 Conley 41.4. Sessions also has a better Ass/TO ratio, more points, more assists, more steals, and a higher Eff rating. Also, I don't think the difference in defense is enough to justify anything. Also why should Sessions FG% be disregarded because he shoots more shots closer to the rim? Last time I checked that was a good thing.

Career Sessions is 43.9, Conley is 42.3. And you completely miss the point of my near the rim comment. If he's shooting 43.9%, which is already not that great, but he's getting a lot of shots near the rim, then that makes the 43.9% even worse when you realize he's taking more shots near the rim. Just as a completely different example that would illustrate it, would you find it more impressive if Dwight Howard shot 51%, or Ray Allen shot 50% for a season? Again, it's not on that level, I'm just stating my point.

The defense right now, the gap is pretty big. Sessions is our worst defensive guard.

You also ignored my financial point.

[Ill-yasova]

Ramon averaged 13.3 and 8.3 as a starter. Conley 7.3 and 4.

[Ill-yasova]

I agree with your financial points. But I disagree with the trade still. Where shipping out a lot of potential for a little. I would have no problem trading Ramon and JA if we were getting similar value. I'm not against all trades involving Ramon, just this one.

[LUKE23]

I agree with your financial points. But I disagree with the trade still. Where shipping out a lot of potential for a little.

Sessions has a lot of potential but Conley does not? Why? Both are 1.5 seasons into their careers, both have had ups and downs, both have good physical attributes.

[Ill-yasova]

I agree with your financial points. But I disagree with the trade still. Where shipping out a lot of potential for a little.

Sessions has a lot of potential but Conley does not? Why? Both are 1.5 seasons into their careers, both have had ups and downs, both have good physical attributes.

Even if they are similar in your eyes, we are still throwing in a high ceiling lottery pick. I can't justify that.

[Bernman]

Ramon averaged 13.3 and 8.3 as a starter. Conley 7.3 and 4.

And how many seconds of the shot clock did Ramon handle the ball in comparision to Conley? What about preventing his opponent from scoring as well as his opponent's teammates if he's getting broken down? How many points you allow is half the equation, as a matter of fact. This aint fantasy, it's reality.

[smooth 'lil balla]

I personally am not ready to give up on JA. I'm pretty surprised I seem to be alone in this regard.