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College players thread/ Draft Related thread

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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#461 » by john2jer » Mon Feb 2, 2009 8:43 pm

Dr.Krapinsky wrote:
john2jer wrote:
revprodeji wrote:In dec, even with his injury, he was able to beat Brandon Jennings off the dribble. Hardly average athlete. He is considered to be extremely effective as a fullcourt defender. Hardly something a non-athlete could do.

He can work on the jumper, but it is more than above average right now.


I think that says more about how poor of a defender jennings is, though. He's got great court vision for the flashy alley oops, but he comes across as a low IQ ball player. Everyone in the gym knew that Rubio could only go left in that game, except for Jennings. Jennings wouldn't bring anything to the Wolves that we don't already get in Telfair.

Holiday is a MUCH better PG prospect for the Wolves than Jennings is.

Rubio I've read is a fine athlete, just not very strong, and would get abused by the Deron Williams type of PGs.


You're basically plagiarizing from Draftexpress here, so I got to call you out on that.

Rubio is better than Jennings, no argument there. However, w/ Holiday I think a good argument can be made that Jennings is better. (1) Coming out of highschool every scouting service had Jennings over Holiday and Jennings was the consensus #1 recruit. (2) Holiday is not a pure point. He's a combo guard, and projecting him to become a starting PG in the NBA is pretty far off at this point. (3) Holiday is not a great shooter. He only shoots 60+ % from the stripe. (4) Holiday is not as athletic as Westbrook, the player who is most responsible for people wanting Holiday. (5) Jennings #1 problem on offense and defense is he just needs to get stronger and that will come sooner rather than later.


That's fine, the anecdote of Jennings getting worked by Rubio I originally read off draftexpress awhile ago, sure, read it a couple other places as well. I haven't been in the gym with either of those guys, so all I have to go off of our draft sites, video clips, and highlights on espn and whatnot.

When you have an off-guard like Foye, I think a combo guard like Holiday who has a bball IQ, passes very well, and is mature for his age, you're more than fine. I've watched a a few Holiday games and have been very impressed with his size, maturity, passing, and ability to run the team when Collison is sitting, which isn't often, but still.

Everything I've seen and read of Jennings screams Seabass Telfair and bust. Forget exactly where I read the quote, and it fits the little bit I've seen, but "Jennings is the only player who makes the least selfish stat in the game, an assist, selfish.

We're under-sized as it is, why would we want a scrawny point guard to match with Foye?

But like I mentioned, a lot of it depends on the team drafting. For the Wolves I take them in this order Holiday>Rubio>Jennings. That's considering fit only. Obviously if Rubio comes out, we could probably draft him and trade him for Holiday and other assets as well, but I like Holiday better than Rubio for the Wolves on head to head comparison alone.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#462 » by Worm Guts » Mon Feb 2, 2009 8:49 pm

Taking Holiday over Rubio would be craziness.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#463 » by TheProdigy » Mon Feb 2, 2009 9:27 pm

revprodeji wrote:Nah, As prospects Deron and paul both had "weaknesses." (Deron was pudgy and unathletic, paul was undersized and a below avg shooter) Rubio has not had a pg weakness since he was 16 and Wall is considered a more athletic Derrick Rose (yea "More" athletic than the most athletic pg we have seen pre-draft)


Wow, you really think Wall is more athletic than Rose? Judging by their high school highlight videos, I have to say that Rose looks like he has more body control, explosiveness, and strength. Wall looks like he has extremely long arms for his height though.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#464 » by john2jer » Mon Feb 2, 2009 9:38 pm

Worm Guts wrote:Taking Holiday over Rubio would be craziness.


If you're referring to what I posted, I thought I tried really hard to not say that and explain exactly what I meant so no one would be confused, but I guess you were anyways.

No one said take Holiday over Rubio.

I said Holiday seems like a better fit for the Wolves. You take Rubio if he's available. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Rubio for Holiday and other assets.

Although it's been stated quite a few places that it's very slim that Rubio comes out this year, let's assume for a second he does, the Wolves get the 2nd pick in the lottery, and Griffin goes 1st.

Trade Rubio and Craig Smith to the Clippers for Holiday, our pick back, DeAndre Jordan, and Brian Skinner. Or some other mash of talent back.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#465 » by Zeitgeister » Mon Feb 2, 2009 10:11 pm

Dr.Krapinsky wrote:
john2jer wrote:
revprodeji wrote:In dec, even with his injury, he was able to beat Brandon Jennings off the dribble. Hardly average athlete. He is considered to be extremely effective as a fullcourt defender. Hardly something a non-athlete could do.

He can work on the jumper, but it is more than above average right now.


I think that says more about how poor of a defender jennings is, though. He's got great court vision for the flashy alley oops, but he comes across as a low IQ ball player. Everyone in the gym knew that Rubio could only go left in that game, except for Jennings. Jennings wouldn't bring anything to the Wolves that we don't already get in Telfair.

Holiday is a MUCH better PG prospect for the Wolves than Jennings is.

Rubio I've read is a fine athlete, just not very strong, and would get abused by the Deron Williams type of PGs.


You're basically plagiarizing from Draftexpress here, so I got to call you out on that.

Rubio is better than Jennings, no argument there. However, w/ Holiday I think a good argument can be made that Jennings is better. (1) Coming out of highschool every scouting service had Jennings over Holiday and Jennings was the consensus #1 recruit. (2) Holiday is not a pure point. He's a combo guard, and projecting him to become a starting PG in the NBA is pretty far off at this point. (3) Holiday is not a great shooter. He only shoots 60+ % from the stripe. (4) Holiday is not as athletic as Westbrook, the player who is most responsible for people wanting Holiday. (5) Jennings #1 problem on offense and defense is he just needs to get stronger and that will come sooner rather than later.


Jennings was the consensus #1? On Rivals #1 was BJ Mullens, and #2 was Jrue Holiday. Brandon Jennings was actually ranked #4.

I am higher on Jennings then most on this board it seems though, I think its an unfair characterization of Jennings to say he's nothing more then Telfair. Considering that he's taller and considerably more athletic.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#466 » by john2jer » Mon Feb 2, 2009 10:19 pm

Zeitgeister wrote:Jennings was the consensus #1? On Rivals #1 was BJ Mullens, and #2 was Jrue Holiday. Brandon Jennings was actually ranked #4.

I am higher on Jennings then most on this board it seems though, I think its an unfair characterization of Jennings to say he's nothing more then Telfair. Considering that he's taller and considerably more athletic.


According to draftexpress Jennings is 6'1" 170 pounds, and Telfair is 6'0" 165 pounds. Seriously? There's a difference in size there? but I do agree, most scouting services liked Jennings, but I don't recall him ever being considered the best recruit in the country. Monroe, Mullens, Derozan, and Holiday were the names I recall being above Jennings. There was a lot of buzz about him because he wasn't smart enough to get into Arizona, though, and his impending decision to go to Europe.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#467 » by AQuintus » Mon Feb 2, 2009 10:21 pm

http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2008/

Jennings is number one in RSCI which is pretty much the average of a number of rankings.

Note: Holiday is #2.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#468 » by john2jer » Mon Feb 2, 2009 10:24 pm

AQuintus wrote:http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2008/

Jennings is number one in RSCI which is pretty much the average of a number of rankings.

Note: Holiday is #2.


Hmm, I stand corrected on that.

But for what it's worth, check out this little gem...

http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2005/

Possibly one of the worst senior classes in recent memory, in regards to pro careers.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#469 » by horaceworthy » Mon Feb 2, 2009 10:28 pm

Anybody here seen Jerel McNeal this season? He's still bringing the same tenacious, opportunistic defense to the table he always has, his decision making has improved from year to year, and his perimeter shot has gotten much better this year. Right now DX has him as the #28 pick in the 2nd round, but im Marquette makes a run (which they should with the 3 senior guards they have) and he keeps up the perimeter shooting, he's got a chance to go end of the first round/early 2nd area. He's a 6'3" combo guard that plays great d, can get to the rim, and looks like he's learned how to shoot (even though his form looks funky, he's shooting 46.5% from beyond the arc while hitting 2.5 treys a game). He could be a nice get with the Celtics pick.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#470 » by Zeitgeister » Mon Feb 2, 2009 10:34 pm

john2jer wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:Jennings was the consensus #1? On Rivals #1 was BJ Mullens, and #2 was Jrue Holiday. Brandon Jennings was actually ranked #4.

I am higher on Jennings then most on this board it seems though, I think its an unfair characterization of Jennings to say he's nothing more then Telfair. Considering that he's taller and considerably more athletic.


According to draftexpress Jennings is 6'1" 170 pounds, and Telfair is 6'0" 165 pounds. Seriously? There's a difference in size there? but I do agree, most scouting services liked Jennings, but I don't recall him ever being considered the best recruit in the country. Monroe, Mullens, Derozan, and Holiday were the names I recall being above Jennings. There was a lot of buzz about him because he wasn't smart enough to get into Arizona, though, and his impending decision to go to Europe.


I guess, but Jennings looks taller then Telfair from what I could tell. Jennings is also gaining valuable experience playing over in Europe, and one of the worst things Telfair did was go directly into the NBA. I don't know, I don't think you can make an assumption that just because a flashy point guard hasn't amounted to anything more then a backup PG in the nba, that the next flashy point guard will amount to the same thing.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#471 » by Krapinsky » Mon Feb 2, 2009 10:41 pm

You know Telfair would be a pretty dang good point guard if he could just make a shot.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#472 » by Zeitgeister » Mon Feb 2, 2009 10:45 pm

john2jer wrote:
AQuintus wrote:http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2008/

Jennings is number one in RSCI which is pretty much the average of a number of rankings.

Note: Holiday is #2.


Hmm, I stand corrected on that.

But for what it's worth, check out this little gem...

http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2005/

Possibly one of the worst senior classes in recent memory, in regards to pro careers.



1998 - Al Harrington (weak class overall)
1999 - Donnell Harvey - that was a miss
2000 - Zach Randolph - not so good
2001 - Eddy Curry
2002 - Amare Stoudemire
2003 - Lebron James
2004 - Dwight Howard
2005 - Gerald Green
2006 - Greg Oden
2007 - OJ Mayo
2008 - Brandon Jennings

* as you can see there are some great prospects listed, and a few others that were real stinkers.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#473 » by B Calrissian » Mon Feb 2, 2009 11:03 pm

Dr.Krapinsky wrote:You know Telfair would be a pretty dang good point guard if he could just make a shot.


His defense is his main shortcoming, not his jumpshot.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#474 » by Krapinsky » Mon Feb 2, 2009 11:45 pm

B Calrissian wrote:
Dr.Krapinsky wrote:You know Telfair would be a pretty dang good point guard if he could just make a shot.


His defense is his main shortcoming, not his jumpshot.


Really, this is not worth responding to, but Telfair shoots less than 35%.

I believe there is not a guard in the league who has played more minutes than Telfair that has a worse FG%.

That being said, yes he is bad at Defense as well.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#475 » by B Calrissian » Mon Feb 2, 2009 11:53 pm

Not worth responding to?

Even if he improves his jumpshot his defense will still be bad. He is too small to be a "pretty dang good point guard".
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#476 » by Krapinsky » Tue Feb 3, 2009 12:38 am

B Calrissian wrote:Not worth responding to?

Even if he improves his jumpshot his defense will still be bad. He is too small to be a "pretty dang good point guard".


:banghead:

Depends how you define "pretty dang good"

Nash, Ford, Felton--- all these guys are pretty good and can't play a lick of D. I don't know if Telfair is worse at offense or worse at defense. Frankly, I don't give a hoot. But if he made 50% of his shots, I probably wouldn't complain about his defensive short comings.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#477 » by TheProdigy » Tue Feb 3, 2009 12:53 am

Hasheem Thabeet is a stud. It looks like he's added a nice outlet pass to his arsenal.

Anyone else watching Uconn vs. Louisville?
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#478 » by B Calrissian » Tue Feb 3, 2009 1:32 am

I wouldn't even say Telfair is good by NBA standards. Felton's defense is worlds better than Telfair's. The day he shoots 50% is the day I will stop complaining about his defense. And that is no day soon.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#479 » by revprodeji » Tue Feb 3, 2009 6:45 pm

DaKidKG wrote:
revprodeji wrote:Nah, As prospects Deron and paul both had "weaknesses." (Deron was pudgy and unathletic, paul was undersized and a below avg shooter) Rubio has not had a pg weakness since he was 16 and Wall is considered a more athletic Derrick Rose (yea "More" athletic than the most athletic pg we have seen pre-draft)


Wow, you really think Wall is more athletic than Rose? Judging by their high school highlight videos, I have to say that Rose looks like he has more body control, explosiveness, and strength. Wall looks like he has extremely long arms for his height though.



I am simply going off of what I read. Usually the part2(wall) of a prospect gets more hype based on the success of the part 1(Rose). What I have read is that Wall is more explosive, quicker and has incredibly long arms(as u noted) Body control and strength is somewhere Rose beats him. The fact is that Wall is the same kind of crazy athletic pg prospect. My concern with Wall is that he does not seem to have the BBIQ for the pg spot. He lives and dies in transition. Rose also has a calm maturity about his game that does not get discussed much.

I believe Rose was a much better prospect, but Wall is cast in that image and will get crazy hype.
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Re: College players thread/ Draft Related thread 

Post#480 » by Vega06 » Tue Feb 3, 2009 7:03 pm

I don't know if he's been discussed here but how do you guys think Terrence Williams would fair in the NBA?

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