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With the 7th pick of the 2009 NBA Draft...

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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#241 » by Sleepy51 » Sun May 3, 2009 2:07 am

Mylie10 wrote:Come on Sleep. There were plenty of games where Sarunis came in and took over. Yes he was a sparkplug, but he was more than that. He didn't start here, but before he got injured he was a damn good player.


Good vs. Dominant are two completely different statements. Runi was good. He was not dominant. He gets overrated because he was a novelty and because he played here on one of our few good teams.

I would only say that the top 5 guys on that list would be called dominant.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#242 » by Twinkie defense » Mon May 4, 2009 12:46 am

Dominant means you can impose your will on the guy you're matched up against. Sarunas could not be stopped going to the hole, and had the highest FG% of any guard. Plainly, he was dominant. And then the wear and tear of his style of play took away his game.

Similarly, at times Monta has been dominant, but as of yet not as consistently as Sarunas.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#243 » by Sleepy51 » Mon May 4, 2009 12:58 am

Twinkie defense wrote:Dominant means you can impose your will on the guy you're matched up against. Sarunas could not be stopped going to the hole, and had the highest FG% of any guard. Plainly, he was dominant. And then the wear and tear of his style of play took away his game.

Similarly, at times Monta has been dominant, but as of yet not as consistently as Sarunas.


#1 There are two ends to the court.

#2 Runi could impose himself on opponents in one very specific way. In the open court, with a defender already on their heels, Runi was strong enough and fast enough to get into their chest and get a ball on the rim in a way that couldn't really be stopped the way the refs called his game. He did not regularly do that to people from the triple threat, or in halfcourt sets. In a transition or busted play where he had open space in front of him to get up to speed, he could score through the contact he created. It was a specific skill that could impact one facet of the game under a certain circumstance. His game wasn't much broader than that.

The dominant players imposed themselves on many areas of a game. They could make ANY play that needed making with a game on the line. That does not describe Runi at all.

I'm not saying he wasn't good, but he did not dominate the game. He dominated one particular situation. Beyond that he was very ordinary.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#244 » by Twinkie defense » Mon May 4, 2009 1:08 am

That's BS. Just like Mutombo has at times been a dominant player at his position. You're the only one talking about Hall of Fame. You don't like Sarunas - were you even a Warriors fan at the time? - and so you're doing semantic gymnastics to devalue his game.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#245 » by Sleepy51 » Mon May 4, 2009 1:33 am

Twinkie defense wrote:That's BS. Just like Mutombo has at times been a dominant player at his position. You're the only one talking about Hall of Fame. You don't like Sarunas - were you even a Warriors fan at the time? - and so you're doing semantic gymnastics to devalue his game.


#1 I do not call Mutombo a dominant player. I didn't call Ben Wallace a dominant player either. But I would be inclined to give more credence to the argument that a paint defender has a much greater impact on a game than a transition scorer. So yeah, if I had to say who was "more" dominant, I'd say Mutombo by leaps and bounds, and so would anyone else who isn't "challenged."

#2 I am not the only one who thinks about hall of fame caliber impact when throwing around the term "Dominant."

#3 I do not dislike Sarunas. I very much enjoyed him being a warrior, but I don't get carried away with it and make ridiculous claims about dominance. He was a very strong roleplayer. His role was scoring, but he was ultimately a roleplayer.

#4 Yes I was a Warriors fan at the time. I have been a Warrior fan since my earliest memories of childhood when my father went nuts about Rick Barry's championship. My family attended lots of games over those intervening thiry-some years and in all honesty, this is the first time I have EVER heard another Warriors or other NBA fan assert that Runi was "one of the most dominant guards in the league."

#5 It's not semantic gymnastics. It's the same disagreement that you and I have about most basketball related issues. You value people who do "just one thing well" (especially when it's scoring) much much much much higher than I and the rest of the basketball literate world values them.

It's a disagreement about the fundamental values of the game. It's not about me not liking Runi. And it's definitely not about me not having enough history with the Warriors to have a rational opinion on a player I watched extensively and cheered my ass off for in person on quite a few occasions (BTW, That's a flat out feeble attempt at a desperation/frustration argument there. Just pitiful to go to there "you're not enough of a fan to disagree with me" card, especially as your first response. All that says is that you really don't have squat to stand on. Just terrible man. I suggest you edit that post to something less pathetic if you really intend on defending this position. )

Runi was not dominant by any definition I've ever heard. You are the first person to ever make such an argument in my presence in 35 years of following the team passionately. But then again, you've consistently proven to be about the most basketball ignorant fan I've ever shared a conversation with. So there's that. I guess there's a first time for everything when you are involved.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#246 » by Sleepy51 » Mon May 4, 2009 2:04 am

BTW, immediately after challenging someone's fanhood, it's generally considered RealGM hysterical, mouth foaming, "I have no leg to stand on" best practices to call them a racist. That way you can divert attention from your pants wetting and move seamlessly into a full fledged hissy fit.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#247 » by Twinkie defense » Mon May 4, 2009 4:11 am

jesus christ quit yer cryin. I only asked if you were a Warriors fan in the 80s.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#248 » by Sleepy51 » Mon May 4, 2009 4:22 am

Twinkie defense wrote:backpedaling


Don't worry about what kind of fan I've been or when. I could lie to you anyway and how would you know the difference? It was classic Twinkle ankle-biting. You can't defend your statement so you start nipping at heels and trying to challenge people on unrelated personal crap. It's not going to make anyone cry, but there's nothing wrong with swatting you over the nose with a rolled up newspaper when you earn it.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#249 » by old rem » Mon May 4, 2009 4:47 am

Dominant at times or for a season...is what it is. Dominant for a career is another thing. Obviously in years where they were #1 in both rebounds and shot blocks, Ben Wallace and Mutumbo were dominant. Mutumbo was, however, dominant for more years.

Marchulonis was dominating in some games, but he was a lot like Maggette, a relentless attack + slash player. He wasn't a guy who'd always be unstoppable and he wasn't great at everything.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#250 » by Sleepy51 » Mon May 4, 2009 5:17 am

Rem,
You're qualifiers are all well and good if that's what we were talking about here, but it's not.

Twinkie defense wrote:Sarunas was one of the most dominant guards in the League.


This is just rubbish.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#251 » by Twinkie defense » Mon May 4, 2009 5:40 am

He was unstoppable. He would either score, or he would shoot two. No matter what the defense would do. I think I was the first one to compare Sarunas' game to Maggette, but Maggette relies on his jumper too much, and it's not as good as Sarunas'.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#252 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Mon May 4, 2009 5:46 am

Sleepy51 wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:That's a good point about Sarunas Marciulionis, Gatling. Before he broke down, Sarunas was one of the most dominant guards in the League.


Who did Runi dominante?

Jodran
Reggie
Isiah
Stockton
Drexler
Tim
KJ
Marc Price
Terry Porter
Hornacek
KJ
Majerle
Mitch
Ricky Pierce
Joe Dumars

Off the top of my head, all those guys were more dominant players than Runi in his best years. How much lower does the bar go? Runi was unique and entertaining as a spark plug who got a free pass on offensive fouls, but he wasn't dominant. Not by a long shot.


Runi's best years should have still been ahead of him if he did not get injured. I barely saw Mitch as a Warrior because I did not arrive out here until Gatling was a rookie. Still I don't think the drop off from Mitch to Runi was huge. I don't know who's minutes Owens grabbed but I am guessing the upgrade to Owens over somebody minus the downgrade of Mitch to Runi accounts for a large part of the major improvement that the Warriors made the year after Mitch was traded.

"Dominant" is almost a sacred word in the religion of basketball fandom. Dominant should probably not be uttered in context of Runi and also not in the context of Mitch. Runi might have reached the level of Marjerle and Hornacek if he did not get injured. I put Mitch one notch above them.

Jordan is the only guy on the list that I am completely comfortable calling "dominant". Jordan and Kobe are the only off guards that I have seen better than Drexler and yet Drexler was only borderline dominant by my stingy definition.

Who did Runi dominate? Well most of the guards on that list could not successfully guard Runi at his peak but Runi at his peak could not guard any of them also. Runi at his peak was breaking down defenses in the half court as well as in the fast break. It helped Runi that Mullin, Hardaway, Elle and sometimes Higgins as a undersized power forward were three point shooters so defenses could not sag to stop Runi's penetration.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#253 » by Twinkie defense » Mon May 4, 2009 5:50 am

S: (adj) dominant (exercising influence or control)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=dominant
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#254 » by FNQ » Mon May 4, 2009 7:20 am

I remember when Sarunas had a of Ginobili-like year... never was the same after. Was my favorite Warrior for a long time after that, but I was only a pup then anyways...

You two are debating over the word dominant. :thumbsup:
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#255 » by watch1958 » Mon May 4, 2009 7:48 am

FireNellieQuick wrote:I remember when Sarunas had a of Ginobili-like year... never was the same after. Was my favorite Warrior for a long time after that, but I was only a pup then anyways...

You two are debating over the word dominant. :thumbsup:
If I remember right, his injury was the dumb sort, tripping over a tree root while jogging, something like that. Never really recovered. Manu is a good comparison, a bull into the lane, where people couldn't seem to avoid fouling him.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#256 » by turk3d » Mon May 4, 2009 2:21 pm

"Dominant"? From the best I can remember, the most you can say perhaps is that "at times" Sarunas could take over a game. Fact is (as old Rem pointed out) if you consider him "dominant" at what he did (which was to get to the basket and get fouled as well as be able to finish) you'd have to say the same thing about Maggette who pretty much does the same thing as Runi in that regard. Runi wasn't even really a starter most of his career. Any one who dominates this league will be playing 35-40 minutes a game.

How does one go from being a very good role player to being dominant? If you want to say that he was very good at getting to the basket and getting fouled, then say he's like Maggette (who is a better rebounder and a better ft shooter). Runi, throughout his career (for someone so "dominant") never averaged as much as 30 mpg. To say he was dominant in this league is homerism to the nth degree. A fun guy who gave 110% every time he was out on the floor and very entertaining, but let's not get carried away please.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#257 » by Sleepy51 » Mon May 4, 2009 2:56 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:Sarunas was one of the most dominant guards in the League.


Rubbish.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#258 » by Twinkie defense » Mon May 4, 2009 4:12 pm

FireNellieQuick wrote:You two are debating over the word dominant. :thumbsup:

Exactly.
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#259 » by Twinkie defense » Mon May 4, 2009 4:15 pm

Jrue is excited about the NBA because he won't have to play defense, he can "be himself."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/b ... 3772.story
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Re: 2009 draft lottery... 

Post#260 » by FNQ » Mon May 4, 2009 5:32 pm

So easy to take that out of context.... Jrue was the SG and rarely used on offense as compared to being their #1 on defense... quote manipulation w/o understanding FTL.

Jrue was a dominant defender... anyone want to argue? I have paragraphs of information including the latin root of dominant, along with a dictionary and thesaurus...

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