Please Grade Eddie Jordan as a Coach.

[Wizards2Lottery]

I cut the rest of this to make it more readable. Thanks but the more I read about Eddie Jordan the more depressing it gets. I just wish the Philly GM would take a look at this thread!

You can't be serious, Corwin. Any GM who would even consider making personnel decisions based on the comments of a few fans on an internet discussion board is an idiot.

Why do you say that? You know as well as anybody that the Wizboard Five, the dirty thiry, (furious forty?) were directly responsible for getting EFJ fired

[DCZards]

Why do you say that? You know as well as anybody that the Wizboard Five, the dirty thiry, (furious forty?) were directly responsible for getting EFJ fired

Then I guess the Wizboard Five is also directly responsible for the Zards 19-win, no playoff season.

[mhd]

I remember the game that made me anti-EJ forever. The Wiz were against the Kings in Sacremento. Haywood was shutting down C-Webb in the 4th, but for some stupid reason, EJ goes with Ruffin for the final 6 minutes. Ruffin gets destroyed by C-Webb on the boards and the post, and the Wiz lose.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Why do you say that? You know as well as anybody that the Wizboard Five, the dirty thiry, (furious forty?) were directly responsible for getting EFJ fired

Then I guess the Wizboard Five is also directly responsible for the Zards 19-win, no playoff season.

I'm holding onto this post until lottery night. If we happen to get you know what, then we all know who is directly responsible.

[WizarDynasty]

erase

[miller31time]

EJ's not a perfect coach, but he's better than most here make him out to be.

I agree with this. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't noticeably above-average but it needs to be noted that he was not a bad coach. The things he brings to the table are things a bad coach couldn't bring. You will not need to worry about your team's offense. It will be improved. You won't need to worry about team chemistry and cohesion.

What you will worry about is whether the best and most effective players on your team are getting the minutes they need. Considering your defense is already above-average, it probably won't fall off THAT much but expect a downgrade, probably going from 13th to something like 16th or 17th in the league. Possibly worse.

But overall, you will have a decent coach.

I know because I'm starter than all of them.

Hope you don't pull a muscle from that reach.

[WizarDynasty]

For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT7.HTM

Code: Select all

            3Pointers           2 Pointers          Inside
Team Player Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Dunks
DAL Terry  39% .366 79% 0% 6.8  44% .492 45% 2% 6.9 16% .613 47% 11% 3.2 9
WAS Butler 19% .310 43% 1% 2.9  51% .401 30% 5% 6.7 28% .640 52% 11% 6.0 29
WAS Jamiso 22% .351 100% 0% 4.1 43% .390 68% 4% 6.0 34% .643 60% 5%  7.8 12
BOS  Pierc 25% .391 92% 0% 4.4  46% .441 28% 3% 6.0 27% .547 47% 17% 4.3 10 
LAL Bryant 19% .351 64% 0% 4.3  59% .439 30% 2% 11.0 21% .655 36% 8% 5.8 59
WAS Young  21% .341 94% 0% 2.0  61% .438 21% 2% 5.0  16% .603 40% 15% 1.9 27
DAL Nowits 10% .359 96% 1% 2.3  74% .474 54% 2% 14.0 15% .585 43% 8% 3.6 14
DET Prince 13% .397 96% 0% 2.0  50% .365 57% 2% 4.60 35% .593 35% 6% 5.2 47
ORL Turkog 36% .356 79% 0% 5.2  36% .381 15% 4% 3.70 27% .530 27% 9% 3.8 5
IND Grange 35% .404 95% 0% 8.1  42% .396 37% 6% 6.4  22% .616 36% 13% 5.2 20
CLE James 23%  .344 42% 0% 4.9  40% .375 21% 2% 6.0  35% .717 37% 7% 10.2 128

Butler is a horrible three point shooter, while most players shoot there three points off an assist at 80%, Butler forces his 3pointers being assisted only 43%.
The alstars seems to shoot their 2pointers at a rate of .43 percent. 2nd tier offensive players seem to shoot low below .40.
Most of Jamison's offense comes from easy assists from other players inside and out during crunch time. Young is scary similiar to Kobe Bryant During crunch time.
Looks like the true offensive stars don't rely on a pass from their team mates to score..and have assist percentage in the low 40 percent. Jamison definitely relies on others during crunch time.
Lebron James and Kobe are dunk machines during crunch time.

Butler is a horrible three point shooter.

[DaRealHibachi]

For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Code: Select all

            3Pointers           2 Pointers          Inside
Team Player Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Dunks
DAL Terry  39% .366 79% 0% 6.8  44% .492 45% 2% 6.9 16% .613 47% 11% 3.2 9
WAS Butler 19% .310 43% 1% 2.9  51% .401 30% 5% 6.7 28% .640 52% 11% 6.0 29
WAS Jamiso 22% .351 100% 0% 4.1 43% .390 68% 4% 6.0 34% .643 60% 5% 7.8 12
BOS  Pierc 25% .391 92% 0% 4.4  46% .441 28% 3% 6.0 27% .547 47% 17% 4.3 10 
LAL Bryant 19% .351 64% 0% 4.3  59% .439 30% 2% 11.0 21% .655 36% 8% 5.8 59
WAS Young  21% .341 94% 0% 2.0  61% .438 21% 2% 5.0  16% .603 40% 15% 1.9 27
DAL Nowits 10% .359 96% 1% 2.3  74% .474 54% 2% 14.0 15% .585 43% 8% 3.6 14
DET Prince 13% .397 96% 0% 2.0  50% .365 57% 2% 4.60 35% .593 35% 6% 5.2 47
ORL Turkog 36% .356 79% 0% 5.2  36% .381 15% 4% 3.70 27% .530 27% 9% 3.8 5
IND Grange 35% .404 95% 0% 8.1  42% .396 37% 6% 6.4  22% .616 36% 13% 5.2 20

Butler is a horrible three point shooter, while most players shoot there three points off an assist at 80%, Butler forces his 3pointers being assisted only 43%.
The alstars seems to shoot their 2pointers at a rate of .43 percent. 2nd tier offensive players seem to shoot low below .40.
Most of Jamison's offense comes from easy assists from other players inside and out during crunch time. Young is scary similiar to Kobe Bryant During crunch time.

Butler is a horrible three point shooter.

What the hell does this have to do with Eddie Jordan...???

[Wizards2Lottery]

Of all the people to hate on this team, why pick Caron?

[FreeBalling]

For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Code: Select all

            3Pointers           2 Pointers          Inside
Team Player Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Att Fg% Ast Blk Pts Dunks
DAL Terry  39% .366 79% 0% 6.8  44% .492 45% 2% 6.9 16% .613 47% 11% 3.2 9
WAS Butler 19% .310 43% 1% 2.9  51% .401 30% 5% 6.7 28% .640 52% 11% 6.0 29
WAS Jamiso 22% .351 100% 0% 4.1 43% .390 68% 4% 6.0 34% .643 60% 5% 7.8 12
BOS  Pierc 25% .391 92% 0% 4.4  46% .441 28% 3% 6.0 27% .547 47% 17% 4.3 10 
LAL Bryant 19% .351 64% 0% 4.3  59% .439 30% 2% 11.0 21% .655 36% 8% 5.8 59
WAS Young  21% .341 94% 0% 2.0  61% .438 21% 2% 5.0  16% .603 40% 15% 1.9 27
DAL Nowits 10% .359 96% 1% 2.3  74% .474 54% 2% 14.0 15% .585 43% 8% 3.6 14
DET Prince 13% .397 96% 0% 2.0  50% .365 57% 2% 4.60 35% .593 35% 6% 5.2 47
ORL Turkog 36% .356 79% 0% 5.2  36% .381 15% 4% 3.70 27% .530 27% 9% 3.8 5
IND Grange 35% .404 95% 0% 8.1  42% .396 37% 6% 6.4  22% .616 36% 13% 5.2 20

Butler is a horrible three point shooter, while most players shoot there three points off an assist at 80%, Butler forces his 3pointers being assisted only 43%.
The alstars seems to shoot their 2pointers at a rate of .43 percent. 2nd tier offensive players seem to shoot low below .40.
Most of Jamison's offense comes from easy assists from other players inside and out during crunch time. Young is scary similiar to Kobe Bryant During crunch time.

Butler is a horrible three point shooter.

What the hell does this have to do with Eddie Jordan...???

I'll take a shot at this one, Alcohol.

[nate33]

Clutch time stats have sample sizes so small that all the results are statistically meaningless.

Last season, Butler averaged 38 points, 15 boards and 16 free throw attempts per 48 minutes during crunch time. The great numbers didn't mean much then, and his so-so numbers this season don't mean much either.

[WizarDynasty]

Field goal percentage is probably the most important stat in basketball. And the data above is comparing field goal percentage, the very stat EJ ignored when making personnel decisions and why he got fired. If EJ had made decisions based on field goal percentage production then Caron Butler and Jamison would have been replaced along time, since they continually allow their opponents to shoot a higher percentage that they do on offense.
So key word is EJ being fired and EJ not using Field Goal Percentage as the most important stat to evaluate players. EJ allowed Jamison and Butler to shot jack and shoot low percentages without penalizing them even though they allowed their opponents to shoot a higher field goal percentage. And the most important time frame of game is the last five minutes in the fourth quarter of close game so last five minutes of game are very statistically significant if you have any idea about strategy in basketball. Most teams have a separation of less than five points when you look at total points average versus points allowed per game. Star players carry the load during crunch time and i have presented how are star players performed in term of field goal percentage which is very easy stat to compare among players at similar positions.
My point is that EJ didn't based his decisions off this performance measurement..which i am arguing should have been the most important piece of information for him to evaluate his players.
and pay attention, the stats i put forward aren't per 48 minute if looked closely.

[miller31time]

Field goal percentage is probably the most important stat in basketball. And the data above is comparing field goal percentage, the very stat EJ ignored when making personnel decisions and why he got fired. If EJ had made decisions based on field goal percentage production then Caron Butler and Jamison would have been replaced along time, since they continually allow their opponents to shoot a higher percentage that they do on offense.
So key word is EJ being fired and EJ not using Field Goal Percentage as the most important stat to evaluate players. EJ allowed Jamison and Butler to shot jack and shoot low percentages without penalizing them even though they allowed their opponents to shoot a higher field goal percentage. And the most important time frame of game is the last five minutes in the fourth quarter of close game so last five minutes of game are very statistically significant if you have any idea about strategy in basketball. Most teams have a separation of less than five points when you look at total points average versus points allowed per game. Star players carry the load during crunch time and i have presented how are star players performed in term of field goal percentage which is very easy stat to compare among players at similar positions.
My point is that EJ didn't based his decisions off this performance measurement..which i am arguing should have been the most important piece of information for him to evaluate his players.
and pay attention, the stats i put forward aren't per 48 minute if looked closely.

fg% has been out-dated and meaningless since the introduction of the 3pt shot. Any respectable statistician will tell you that. fg% has been replaced by eFG% and TS% which factor in the fact that a 3pt shot is worth more than a 2pt shot (TS% also takes free throws into consideration).

Shooting

Another stat that should be replaced is FG%. Why? Field goal percentage doesn’t account for the scoring bonus in a three point shot, which is a lower percentage shot. Sharp shooter Kyle Korver’s career FG% (as of 2007) is a lowly 41.3%. If FG% rates a good shooter like Korver so poorly, then it’s obviously not a good stat to use. So replace FG% with eFG% (effective field goal percentage), which compensates for the extra point in a three point shot. Korver’s eFG% is a more robust 53.6%.

But eFG% isn’t the only statistic used to measure a shooter. True Shooting Percentage (TS%) accounts not only for three pointers, but free throws made as well. For instance a player that hits a layup, gets fouled, and hits the extra point is more valuable than the guy that just sinks a jumper. To compare players with respect to their total scoring contribution, this is the stat to use.

In 50 Words or Less
Field goal percentage (FG%) should be replaced by eFG% or TS%. Effective field goal percentage (eFG%) compensates properly for three pointers, while true shooting percentage (TS%) compensates for three pointers and free throws.

Examples Why
Well I used Kyle Korver above, but otherwise you can look at any player that takes a large amount of three pointers or gets (and converts) a lot of free throws. Players like Kevin Martin, Jason Kapono, Manu Ginobili, and Shawn Marion come to mind as players who are misrepresented by FG%.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=608

[closg00]

No-ones in a hurry to lock-up EJ.

[ZonkertheBrainless]

yeah, everybody who does any research into what happened over the past few years, the weird attitude towards BH, the strange defensive strategies, the inability to teach fundamental defense, will probably realize that EJ is a good guy and smart and an above average offensive mind, but devotes his concentration to offense while defense is an afterthought. You just scan't have a personality like that as your head coach. Fine as an assistant.

[closg00]

yeah, everybody who does any research into what happened over the past few years, the weird attitude towards BH, the strange defensive strategies, the inability to teach fundamental defense, will probably realize that EJ is a good guy and smart and an above average offensive mind, but devotes his concentration to offense while defense is an afterthought. You just scan't have a personality like that as your head coach. Fine as an assistant.

[corwin]

This has been hugely informative for Philly fans. Most on our board are now in favor of Thibideau but there are still some supporters of Jordan. Definitely sounds like the wrong guy for the job.

[hands11]

Media relations: A He is very personable and was well-liked by the media. Of course he was also a hometown guy.

Relationship with players: A- (Except Haywood, infamously keeping him on the bench in the playoffs as Z had his way offensively) Jordan can be considered a "player's" coach. Another way to put that is they like to play for him because he allows them to do what they want.

Offensive system: B+ The Princeton offense can be tough to install because of the personnel requirements, but it did put the Wizards best offensive players in a position to score efficiently. Sometimes the offense breaks down into a weave and heave look.

Defensive system: F Protect the paint at all costs. Double-team guys who aren't threats in the post. Allow wide open 3s all the time. No force rules and poor rotations (chicken with its head cut off defense, chasing after the ball). Did not get Arenas to buy into playing defense and did not demand Jamison play some defense.

Lineups/substitutions: D Loves small ball and "high energy" guys who bring the "force" (Ruffin, Etan Thomas).

Development of young players: Incomplete The Wizards during his tenure did not have many talented young guys, although he does seem to favor veterans over young guys.

Overall: a solid and well earned C. He's an average NBA head coach with some real strengths and weaknesses. He seems to be very stubborn and does not adjust his systems to the talents of his players very easily.

I think Lyrical did a good job but I'm more inclined to agree with this assessment. Eddie Jordan wasn't a failure. He did a decent job. He, along with a talented roster, made the Wizards both respectable and relevant. Elite? No. Upper-echelon? No. That's the reason he's not what I would call a "good" coach, but he won't kill your team.

What I think will ultimately determine how successful he is in Philly (if he gets the job) is the coaching staff around him. If he learned from his mistakes in Washington and actually surrounds himself with defensive-oriented assistants who he will actually TURN TO for the defensive system of the 76'ers, then he might be a very good option. I put the chances of that happening as being low, though. As has been mentioned, he's stubborn.

This is the wave I'm riding. As much as I bashed EFJ starting in his first year with us, I was also always pulling for him to get it. I thought he had potential. Problem was always, he learned everything way to slowly.

I think he could ultimately learn that he needs this kind of coaching help on the D side of things. And if he had this and enough veteran players, he may be able to win enough that he learns more things. But, he is a coach that is stuck in his system and it's a really complicated system. Point is, there are lots of coaches that could play the roll of head coach if they had all those other things. I just think he is nothing special right now. He is a decent assistant coach. He would be better off just realizing that and being a part of something instead of trying to be the head coach of that team. A man needs to know his limitations.

If he wants to be more, then he needs to swallow his pride and change. I would use the top coaches as my model. I just don't know if that is who he is thought. A lot would depend on what he learned from getting fired from the Wiz. From the interviews I saw, it didn't look like he learned much. Seemed more like he thought he got a raw deal which is a joke. He got more then a fair chance here. He has enough things that need to change about him that I would hardly consider him a solid choice as a head coach. He should just do what he does well and be happy.

[hands11]

His defensive weaknesses completely neutralize his offensive strengths. His defense will lose you as many games as his offensive will win.

.

So kind of the AJ equivalent of the coach

I like the point one person made about how he wasn't able to get players to do the next thing they needed to help the team and how his defensive scheme blows.

You aren't going to win in todays league without D so that is reason enough not to hire him.

He is Norv Turner. A decent assistant coach who loves that idea of being an offensive genius.

But that said, I hope he coaches a team in the East. That would be awesome.

[hands11]

EJ’s mom here. EJ is especially good at getting his players wide open shots coming out of timeouts.

everyone's favorite, the Gilbert and Caron isolation! Such a genius EJ was!

Yeah, that was my favorite part also.

Can someone copy that into the hall of fame please.