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Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota

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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#661 » by Ruzious » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:56 pm

miller31time wrote:I'd take Brooks and Battier in place of Foye/Miller in a heart-beat. We need a defensive stopper and there are few better defensive specialists than Shane Battier. It also helps that he's a knock-down spot-up shooter.

He would instantaneously make us a legitimate defensive team, assuming he'd get about 30mpg.

Arenas
Battier
Butler
Jamison
Haywood

That's a top-5 offense and a top-10 or 15 defense.

The fact we'd be getting Brooks only helps matters. He's instant offense off of the bench, while also being a competent ball-handler and passer.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I'm starting to lean more against that trade idea, and I'm compelled :) to point out Battier had a really bad PER of 10.7 - which has been in decline for serveral years and is likely to continue decreasing as he gets farther away from 30. For better or worse, we need to bank on Dom filling that role, and at some point in the next year or so, their PERs will likely collide. Brooks would be the valuable pickup in that trade - as he's an improving young quality guard with a very low salary. The Wiz need some Arenas insurance, and he could also play some minutes with Arenas. Can Foye fill that role? I hope he proves me wrong - but I don't think so.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#662 » by Ruzious » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:02 pm

nate33 wrote:Any chance Houston would trade Battier + Cook for Mike Miller? It would make some sense if they decided to keep Artest.

I think Houston would be very happy if they could pull that off at this stage of Battier's career.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#663 » by miller31time » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:07 pm

Ruzious wrote:I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I'm starting to lean more against that trade idea, and I'm compelled :) to point out Battier had a really bad PER of 10.7 - which has been in decline for serveral years and is likely to continue decreasing as he gets farther away from 30. For better or worse, we need to bank on Dom filling that role, and at some point in the next year or so, their PERs will likely collide. Brooks would be the valuable pickup in that trade - as he's an improving young quality guard with a very low salary. The Wiz need some Arenas insurance, and he could also play some minutes with Arenas. Can Foye fill that role? I hope he proves me wrong - but I don't think so.


I'm perfectly fine with Battier being a limited offensive player because of two reasons...

1. What he can do well on offense (knock down spot-up jump shots at an insanely efficient clip) is what we need our of our 2-guard.

2. Any offensive capabilities from Battier is gravy. We're getting him to be a lock-down defender.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#664 » by Kanyewest » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:10 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
miller31time wrote:I'd take Brooks and Battier in place of Foye/Miller in a heart-beat. We need a defensive stopper and there are few better defensive specialists than Shane Battier. It also helps that he's a knock-down spot-up shooter.

He would instantaneously make us a legitimate defensive team, assuming he'd get about 30mpg.

Arenas
Battier
Butler
Jamison
Haywood


That's a top-5 offense and a top-10 or 15 defense.

The one problem with that line up is that there's no 2-guard.


Battier played 2 guard for the Rockets last year with McGrady out. And he's more than capable of guarding other teams shooting guards.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#665 » by nate33 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:16 pm

Ruzious wrote:
nate33 wrote:Any chance Houston would trade Battier + Cook for Mike Miller? It would make some sense if they decided to keep Artest.

I think Houston would be very happy if they could pull that off at this stage of Battier's career.

I don't think Battier's declining. His defense looks as good as ever to me. His counterpart PER numbers continue to be insanely low. Battier and Haywood in the lineup together would make us an above-average defensive team - something we haven't seen since... wait for it... 1998.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#666 » by miller31time » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:17 pm

It's also noteworthy that he consistently improves his team when he's on the floor.

On/off differential for Battier's career

*82games.com only goes as far back as the 2002-2003 season

08-09: +3.9
07-08: +4.3
06-07: +4.2
05-06: +10.4 ( :o )
04-05: +11.6 ( :o )
03-04: +3.5
02-03: +2.8

That's down-right Haywood-esque!
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#667 » by nate33 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:27 pm

Shane Battier is basically what we all wish Stevenson could be. He's a bigger, better-defending Deshawn Stevenson who also shoots better from the perimeter. The only thing Stevenson does better is handle the ball.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#668 » by Ruzious » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:35 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
nate33 wrote:Any chance Houston would trade Battier + Cook for Mike Miller? It would make some sense if they decided to keep Artest.

I think Houston would be very happy if they could pull that off at this stage of Battier's career.

I don't think Battier's declining. His defense looks as good as ever to me. His counterpart PER numbers continue to be insanely low. Battier and Haywood in the lineup together would make us an above-average defensive team - something we haven't seen since... wait for it... 1998.

It seems a lot longer than 1998!

Interesting that you and Miller both use the word insane when pumping up Battier. There was no bigger fan of Battier then me when he was... wait for it... in his 20's. I'm not going to pretend I've watched him recently to notice whether or not he was declining, but obviously his offense has declined - and that's on a team that is shy on offense, so it should be a red flag. He's on a great defensive team, so the couterpart PER tells you even less than it normally would. He's probably not defending the best wing player when Artest is in there. Offensively, the PER is useful to show decline or improvement. There's been decline... from 14.8 to 12.1 to 11.4 to 10.7. Again, the Wiz need Dom to progress - to fill the role that Battier would - unless the NBA allows platoon basketball. If I was going to acquire someone for that role to add to Dom, it'd be a guy who was just picked in the middle of the 2nd round - Green from UNC.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#669 » by Ruzious » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:38 pm

miller31time wrote:It's also noteworthy that he consistently improves his team when he's on the floor.

On/off differential for Battier's career

*82games.com only goes as far back as the 2002-2003 season

08-09: +3.9
07-08: +4.3
06-07: +4.2
05-06: +10.4 ( :o )
04-05: +11.6 ( :o )
03-04: +3.5
02-03: +2.8

That's down-right Haywood-esque!

The only problem is the year we're in. If we could trade for the 04-05 Battier, that'd be awesome - not to mention the scientific benefits. :)
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#670 » by Ruzious » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:42 pm

nate33 wrote:Shane Battier is basically what we all wish Stevenson could be. He's a bigger, better-defending Deshawn Stevenson who also shoots better from the perimeter. The only thing Stevenson does better is handle the ball.

Stevenson isn't in the Wiz plans. But I'm guessing that Battier probably wouldn't do so well filling in at the point, like Stevenson did 2 years ago.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#671 » by closg00 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:57 pm

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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#672 » by johnbragg » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:23 pm

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60162/20090629/wolves_turned_down_knicks_offer_for_5th_pick/

So now the official scoreboard is Foye, Miller and some cash instead of Jordan Hill, Wilson Chandler and DaJuan Blair. Sigh.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#673 » by LyricalRico » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:00 am

Miller+Foye >>>>> the entire universe

:nod:
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#674 » by yungal07 » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:40 am

johnbragg wrote:http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60162/20090629/wolves_turned_down_knicks_offer_for_5th_pick/

So now the official scoreboard is Foye, Miller and some cash instead of Jordan Hill, Wilson Chandler and DaJuan Blair. Sigh.


Actually, it's Foye + Miller instead of Hill + Chandler + Thomas + Songailia + Pech

I'm not sure what Blair has to do with anything...he wasn't going to get picked by regardless of what happened. Anyway, I'll take Foye + Miller because Hill is going to be a bigtime bust. All the good players were gone after 7.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#675 » by Ji » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:41 am

looks like Wolves turned down Winston Chandler and 8th for the 5th...We could of had him and Jordan Hill

so Winston Chandler and Jordan Hill vs Miller and Foye
or Winston Chandler and Derozzan or Jennings vs Miller and Foye?
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#676 » by Hoopalotta » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:00 am

Scouting report on Winston Chandler:

Stiff upper lip
Excellent leadership in crunch time
Highly quotable
Limited athleticism
Drunk by lunch
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#677 » by miller31time » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:11 am

Hoopalotta wrote:Scouting report on Winston Chandler:

Stiff upper lip
Excellent leadership in crunch time
Highly quotable
Limited athleticism
Drunk by lunch


It needed to be said.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#678 » by badinage » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:15 am

miller31time wrote:I'd take Brooks and Battier in place of Foye/Miller in a heart-beat. We need a defensive stopper and there are few better defensive specialists than Shane Battier. It also helps that he's a knock-down spot-up shooter.

He would instantaneously make us a legitimate defensive team, assuming he'd get about 30mpg.

Arenas
Battier
Butler
Jamison
Haywood

That's a top-5 offense and a top-10 or 15 defense.

The fact we'd be getting Brooks only helps matters. He's instant offense off of the bench, while also being a competent ball-handler and passer.


That's nice. But it's not better than Miller + Foye -- just different.

And with Battier in the lineup, Butler's your shooting guard, and that's not a good thing.

I like Shane. And I like Brooks, too.

But I also like Foye and Miller. One of the reasons very few of us are talking so little about Foye is because he was on Minny, and they didn't get much attention. He can play, and he's getting better. Some guys take a bit to bloom, and I suspect he's one of them. This is a very good situation for him: he's playing for a talented offensive mind in Flip, and in an offense where he won't be asked to carry the team; he won't even be asked to be the team's top perimeter scorer.

What he needs to learn, is how to draw contact and still get off his shot. Once he has that piece of the puzzle, he's going to do very, very well. His size is a plus, he's strong, and he's got a decent shot. He's also surprisingly clutch, having played extremely well for Minny in the fourth quarter.

And let's not forget ... Mike Miller, according to Wages of Wins, was the No. 4 ranked shooting guard last year. That's not a misprint. Four. In a supposed "down" year.

He's never been on a team with anything close to this many weapons. He's going to really open up the floor. Folks are harping on his D, but what about his rebounding and passing, both of which are stellar for a shooting guard. He's got size, too.

And I love the fact that, in crunch time, we can now put 4 shooters on the floor, if need be. Four. That's Orlando-esque. And two of those four are world-class marksmen.

It's easy to rail and rail and rail about the defense. But the fact is, it's more about acquiring a mindset as a team, and committing to executing a smart team D concept, than it is about trading and drafting "defenders." Boston proved that last year, and so did L.A. (for the most part) this year. I think Flip has a scheme that can work for a team like this, and I think guys will listen.

The return of Haywood is huge, and just as huge is the idea that this coaching staff is insisting that Arenas lead; Eddie didn't do this, kept saying, "Gil is Gil." Cassell is already in Gilb's ear, and so is Flip. And I am willing to bet that they are not just talking about guiding the team on offense, but also leading it on defense.

A new and intelligent zone scheme that is tailor-made to disguise a guy like Jamison, plus a lane-clogger in Haywood, plus a hungry I've-got-something-to-prove leader on the perimeter, plus the continued development of the hard-nosed McGuire and long-armed Young, plus the addition of Foye and Miller (who are serviceable defensively) ... I think it all adds up to a better D this season.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#679 » by Dat2U » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:37 am

Wow. I'm trying to figure when Mike Miller morphed into the franchise caliber player. Because reading all the posts about how great he is, its a wonder he didn't lead Minnesota into the playoffs by himself. It's like the board has a collective hard on for the guy.

I guarantee had the board done a poll about choosing b/w Mike Miller & Shane Battier before last week, Battier would have won hands down. Only now, after the trade is made and we have Miller do we all the sudden question Battier's age, stats or ability to fit in our lineup.

Irregardless I think the guy we'll come to end up regretting we passed on was Steph Curry. It's a gut feeling but if we were going to sell out on having a completely offensive minded team then Curry was the guy to select. Contrary to popular belief Curry was the type of rookie that could come in and contribute immediately in a team's rotation. And the sad thing about the trade was that if EG waited until draft day, he possibly could have had Curry AND Miller or at least Curry and the #18th pick. You can make an argument about Miller being a good fit next to our big three but I'd take Curry over Foye 10 times out of 10 and find it hard to believe that someone can make a legitimate argument the Foye is an ideal fit or anything more than mediocre guard.
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Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota 

Post#680 » by barelyawake » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:48 am

badinage wrote:It's easy to rail and rail and rail about the defense. But the fact is, it's more about acquiring a mindset as a team, and committing to executing a smart team D concept, than it is about trading and drafting "defenders." Boston proved that last year, and so did L.A. (for the most part) this year.

What are you talking about? You think you don't need good defenders to play good defense? Since when? When has that ever happened? In Boston? Let's see. Boston has perhaps the best defensive PG. They have All-defensive player KG. Pierce has always been a very good defensive player, when he needs/wants to be (key phrase). They have a bruiser in Perkins. They had two of the best vet defenders in the league in Posey and P.J. Brown. These are people we are comparing to Mike Miller and Foye? Man, I'm sorry, but I just view that as nuts. You must play defense to win championships. You must have good defensive minded players to play good defense. A coach alone cannot take the worst defensive team in the league; add two offensive players; and suddenly make them good defensively with a scheme. It doesn't happen.

And the trade sent Dom to the bench more than likely. So, cut him out of your equation. IMO there's no two ways about it. If we start and finish with M&M at the two, it's giving up on the post season before it even starts. For God's sakes, Ginobili had to ride the bench for the Spurs (a team with great defenders on it). This fantasy that we don't have to play defense, or that the "system" suddenly turns non-defenders into shutdown defenders, is Wonkavillian. It's Santa Claus-like thinking that needs to be properly clipped, so that management doesn't leave this team as is (because as is ain't good enough). Or so says me, Mr. Smiley, who trusts EG will fix things.

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