David Lee to accept the Knicks one-year qualifying for $2.7?

[Luv those Knicks]

This might actually work for Lee - He stays at the QO, then next off season, if we don't relinquish his Bird rights, he counts against the salary cap for 300% of his previous season's salary, which would be $8.04 million, which would still give us enough money to sign a max free agent (even presuming Curry and Jeffries are still on the books).

Perhaps kosmo or someone could clarify this point:

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract (Below the league average salary): 300% of his previous salary

Larry Bird, except when coming off rookie scale contract (Below the average salary): 200% of his previous salary

David Lee would be coming off his 5th year in the NBA, and based off the qualifying offer. Therefore, wouldn't it fall under the second type of Larry Bird rights and his salary cap hold count 200%, not 300%?

I think it's 300%.

So, if NY wants to hold onto Lee's rights, he's an 8.1 million dollar cap hit next year.

The good news is, NY could wait, sign Lebron and then sign Lee for 10 million, so there is a small savings.

The bad news is, that means asking D.Lee to wait till after teams can negotiate with free agents, so it opens up Lee to the entire league, so maybe NY loses him.

Here's Larry Coon, search the website for "300" to find the link on Rookie contract cap holds. The site says "4th year" but I think they mean after the 5th year.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

[kosmovitelli]

This might actually work for Lee - He stays at the QO, then next off season, if we don't relinquish his Bird rights, he counts against the salary cap for 300% of his previous season's salary, which would be $8.04 million, which would still give us enough money to sign a max free agent (even presuming Curry and Jeffries are still on the books).

Perhaps kosmo or someone could clarify this point:

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract (Below the league average salary): 300% of his previous salary

Larry Bird, except when coming off rookie scale contract (Below the average salary): 200% of his previous salary

David Lee would be coming off his 5th year in the NBA, and based off the qualifying offer. Therefore, wouldn't it fall under the second type of Larry Bird rights and his salary cap hold count 200%, not 300%?

David Lee has a cap hold of :
- 300% this summer
- 200% next summer (if he accepts the qualifying offer)

[sol537]

Kosmo, can you break it down in terms of how beneficial it would be for us if Lee does accept the QO? Like, would he be worth more or less in a trade to other teams? Would it be in our best interest to play him big minutes to up his value or would it be better to limit him a bit? What about signing free agents in 2010 and how we could maneuver around that?

[Pedro Pistolas]

great, gimmick wonder is back ... sorry gallinari looks like you'll be getting ignored by the overrated elf once again.

[2ThouTeninator]

great, gimmick wonder is back ... sorry gallinari looks like you'll be getting ignored by the overrated elf once again.

Nate did ignore Gallo. So did Duhon. Those two alone will set Gallinari back 2 years.

[H3bto]

i see Lee staying for cheap.

[roy10]

If Lee accept the QO, the Knicks should deal him with Jeffries for cap relief. I know a player on the QO has to give his consent to being dealt, but I'm sure Lee will give it if he realizes his minutes will be deeply cut for Hill and Darko.

[Johnny Hoops]

This might actually work for Lee - He stays at the QO, then next off season, if we don't relinquish his Bird rights, he counts against the salary cap for 300% of his previous season's salary, which would be $8.04 million, which would still give us enough money to sign a max free agent (even presuming Curry and Jeffries are still on the books).

Perhaps kosmo or someone could clarify this point:

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract (Below the league average salary): 300% of his previous salary

Larry Bird, except when coming off rookie scale contract (Below the average salary): 200% of his previous salary

David Lee would be coming off his 5th year in the NBA, and based off the qualifying offer. Therefore, wouldn't it fall under the second type of Larry Bird rights and his salary cap hold count 200%, not 300%?

I think it's 300%.

So, if NY wants to hold onto Lee's rights, he's an 8.1 million dollar cap hit next year.

The good news is, NY could wait, sign Lebron and then sign Lee for 10 million, so there is a small savings.

The bad news is, that means asking D.Lee to wait till after teams can negotiate with free agents, so it opens up Lee to the entire league, so maybe NY loses him.

Here's Larry Coon, search the website for "300" to find the link on Rookie contract cap holds. The site says "4th year" but I think they mean after the 5th year.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

But is his cap hold # (the $8.1M) just funny money?

I mean if we can still go out and sign a couple of free agents and than after the fact come back and sign Lee and Nate and go over the CAP -- doesn't that make the CAP hold # useless?

Can you clarify for me one more time?

[Judah]

I'm cool with that as long as we resign him. He's going to be a very valuable player in this league for years to come. He gets better at something every year. I remember when he first came into the league and he really sucked at shooting free throws, and now i'm actually confident with him on the line. I like his heart and passion for the game. As for his defense, not everyone comes with the complete package but if we can make up for his defense with someone like J. Hill and just play as a team making up for each others weaknesses we'll be very good.

[aq_ua]

This might actually work for Lee - He stays at the QO, then next off season, if we don't relinquish his Bird rights, he counts against the salary cap for 300% of his previous season's salary, which would be $8.04 million, which would still give us enough money to sign a max free agent (even presuming Curry and Jeffries are still on the books).

Perhaps kosmo or someone could clarify this point:

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract (Below the league average salary): 300% of his previous salary

Larry Bird, except when coming off rookie scale contract (Below the average salary): 200% of his previous salary

David Lee would be coming off his 5th year in the NBA, and based off the qualifying offer. Therefore, wouldn't it fall under the second type of Larry Bird rights and his salary cap hold count 200%, not 300%?

David Lee has a cap hold of :
- 300% this summer
- 200% next summer (if he accepts the qualifying offer)

That's the sense I got from reading Larry Coon's guide. In that case, David Lee would only count $5.2 million against the salary cap if we retained his Bird rights, which means we could easily sign a max free agent and then take advantage of his Bird Rights later. Perhaps that's what Walsh meant by some wiggle room in the 2010 cap space equation.

[duhon-duhon]

But is his cap hold # (the $8.1M) just funny money?

I mean if we can still go out and sign a couple of free agents and than after the fact come back and sign Lee and Nate and go over the CAP -- doesn't that make the CAP hold # useless?

Can you clarify for me one more time?

The cap hold prevents you from using that $8.1m (for example) to sign OTHER free agents.

Meaning if the cap is $50, you now have $41.9m to spend. Spend it all, and sign Lee to $12m, and you'd then be up at $53.9m, nearly $4 OVER the cap.

WITHOUT the cap hold, you could then spend $50m on other free agents, then sign Lee to $12, and be at $62m.

The cap hold is the difference between being able to spend $53.9m and $62m during the offseason.

Make sense?

[Fat Kat]

It's just my opinion, but I doubt Lee puts up the same numbers this year. He's in serious danger of really losing money if he doesn't sign a reasonable contract. What if Hill really pans out fast? What if Darko proves to be useful? What if Curry comes in ready to play? Too many question marks. Sign on the dotted line young man. 7.5 per.

[StutterStep]

Lee and Nate are not going to take the QO from the Knicks. It does not make sense for them from a money or roster (playing time) point of view.

If they were lottery picks with 5mil plus QOs that might be different but those guys are not in the position to risk one year and hit the market next year. Plus, it does not help the Knicks for them to do that because next year, the Knicks will have to renounce their rights or risk losing on MAX player(s).

[Clyde2]

It's just my opinion, but I doubt Lee puts up the same numbers this year. He's in serious danger of really losing money if he doesn't sign a reasonable contract. What if Hill really pans out fast? What if Darko proves to be useful? What if Curry comes in ready to play? Too many question marks. Sign on the dotted line young man. 7.5 per.

FatKat your opinion is very wise. In the best possible scenario all three will happen. I agree Lee should accept a reasonalbe contract now. I would even go up to 9 million for 5 years with the belief Lee will continue to improve.

[Esq-4]

it would be a very dangerous game to take the QO when your contract is as low as Lee and Nates are. Almost so low that they would need some sort of guarantee they would be taken care of, but that can't be done, just calls for a lot of trust b/w player and management...which is possible with the CURRENT management.

For the Knicks, its ideal. The only risk is that they can walk next year, but they ran that risk this year to an extent i someone actually did offer him a 10-12mil deal. Or Nate a 7-8.

But, as always pointed out about the max players, there is an benefit to either resigning to the team w/ your bird rights or getting sign and traded, that being 10.5% raises, as opposed to 8%. And the extra year possibility.

While DLee might not want to only make 2=mil this year, only counting for 5+ mil next year would be great for us. We could either do what MIL did w/ Redd where they signed him last after using up the cap space, since if the bird rights are retained you can go over the cap, or use him in a s&t where he gets the bigger raises.

Look at Turk and Marion this year, both sign and traded without much (to the eye) going back to the other team.

Heck, maybe he can even make that money up in endorsements. well some.

[RutgersBJJ]

I'd be more than happy to have Nate back for this season and then just letting him walk next year.

This might actually work for Lee - He stays at the QO, then next off season, if we don't relinquish his Bird rights, he counts against the salary cap for 300% of his previous season's salary, which would be $8.04 million, which would still give us enough money to sign a max free agent (even presuming Curry and Jeffries are still on the books).

Normally, teams renounce free agents' Bird rights to get more cap space, but because we'll be so far under the cap anyway, we can't actually afford to keep Lee's.

If we sign a max free agent, David Lee will probably want to re-sign anyway, so even after using our cap space, we could sign him over the cap with his Bird rights, and give him a decent chunk of change without worrying about jeopardising our cap space.

I had never thought about this. If we can move Jeffries and Curry, we will have more than enough money to not only keep Lee and Nate while signing other players, but also drastically overpay them so they have no reason to leave. The one thing would be wondering who we go after that summer if we have 4 players already on our roster that play in the front court (Lee, Hill, Gallo, Chandler).

If Nate and Lee sign the QO we will still have their bird rights (so we can offer them more than anyone else) and they would count against the cap basically as much as Curry and Jeffries do. We wouldn't need to renounce them to bring in a max contract, and we would actually have a real team.

[Esq-4]

Well their COMBINED CAP HOLD would be over 10 mil I think (5.2 for Lee and a little more for Nate--even though they will only be making around 3, maybe a little less, this year in actual contract). You know, just about the same amount of money EC makes in 2010 (11.2)

But other than that yeah, keep the cap down by saving them for last to resign, and over pay them for being good soldiers this year.

As far as the crowed front court...i would venture to guess that Hill sees a lot of time at C and Chandler at the 2. Really w/ their interchangeability, you could run Hill, Lee, Gallo, WC, Nate as your lineup w/ Douglas on the bench, and moving one of the other five to the bench according to who you sign.

[kosmovitelli]

Lee and Nate are not going to take the QO from the Knicks. It does not make sense for them from a money or roster (playing time) point of view.

If they were lottery picks with 5mil plus QOs that might be different but those guys are not in the position to risk one year and hit the market next year. Plus, it does not help the Knicks for them to do that because next year, the Knicks will have to renounce their rights or risk losing on MAX player(s).

It does help the Knicks because :
- they have them on the cheap one more year
- they can trade them during the season (with the player's consent)
- they will have a cap hold of only twice the value of their 2009-2010 salary : Lee taking the QO means he will have a cap hold of $5,364,098 in 2010,in terms of cap holds it's better than Lee signing for the MLE!
- they don't need to renounce their rights until they have an agreement with a max free agent and even in that case, they can keep the rights to Lee and Nate and orchestrate a sign and trade (just like Toronto did with Shawn Marion, they didn't renounce his rights to sign Hedo, they waited to have a trade for Marion)
- renounced players can still be traded so we could sign Lebron and another player and then trade Lee and Nate.

[mugzi]

The capologist strikes again!!!!!

[kosmovitelli]

The best case scenario for the Knicks would be Lee taking the QO and Curry opting out at the end of the season.

The Knicks salaries for 2010 : approx $26.7 million.
If Lee takes the QO then he will have a cap hold of $5,364,098 so the total would be $32 million : enough room to sign one max free agent (Lebron) and resign Lee using his Bird Rights.
If Eddy Curry opts out (and he's renounced) or he's traded for an expiring contract (I know it's a long shot) then we can substract $11,276,863, the total would be $20,793,540. You need at least $33 million to sign two max free agents so if the salary cap is set at $54 million then we could sign two max free agents and resign Lee !

There's currently no indication those events will happen but they are possible. I know Eddy Curry opting out may sound strange for some fans but Eddy Curry was injured and out of shape almost all season last year and he had a terrible season two years ago so if he has a good season (like he did in 2006-2007), there's a good chance he will opt out to cash in knowing he may not be able to have two consecutive good seasons and with so many teams under the cap, it's a risk worth taking even if he has to forfeit $10 million. Knowing Eddy, it's not a realistic scenario right now but maybe it will become realistic mid-season. Even if Eddy is still under contract in july 2010, if push came to shove Walsh can be creative and trade Curry to a team under the cap (he would have to give something back and assets of course). For example, in the four-team trade than sent Marion to Dallas and Hedo to Toronto, Memphis traded Greg Buckner (only one million guaranteed) and received a future second round draft pick, Jerry Stackhouse (only two million guaranteed) and cash considerations (all from Dallas). My guess id Dallas sent $3 million cash to Memphis ($2 million to buy out Stackhouse and $1million as incentives to make the trade. Not to mention they also save $1 million (Buckner) in the deal. Basically Memphis obtained $2 million and a future second round pick. Walsh may convince a team to accepts Jared Jeffries if we send them $3 million cash and future first round pick. Obviously we would surrender a first round pick only if we have an agreement with a max player (Lebron) and a second max player accepted our offer as long as we clear Jeffries contract and enough room under the cap before the end of the july moratorium.

The july moratorium is a wonderful thing for teams under the cap. You can buy time. Teams can negotiate with free agents as soon as july 1 and they have approx 7 days to make things work. Deals can't be official until the end of the moratorium. Last year, when they learned the Clips didn't have enough money to match Brand's offer from Golden State, the Sixers made a trade with Minny to have enough room under the cap to sign Elton Brand and beat GS.
I think we will know on july 1 if Lebron stays in Cleveland or not. He will be a domino and things wil fall into place after he made his decision.
Let's say Lebron agrees with the Knicks on july 1 and we still have Curry and Jeffries. If I'm Walsh, I immediatly turn to Wade and Bosh on july 2 and if one of them is willing to sign and we have his word then I call small market teams like Memphis, Oklahoma, etc. and I offer them $3 million cash and a first round pick if they take Jeffries (or Curry but I expect they would ask for more compensation if it's Curry as he has a bigger contract). I would even give two future first round picks (2011 and 2014 for example) if we can sign Lebron and Wade. I'm usually against trading future first round picks but if it's to gain the possibility to sign two franchise players then it would be worth it.


Anyway, Lee taking the QO would give Donnie Walsh lots of options and flexibility in the future.