Sessions Update:Ramon signs T-Wolves OS (page 310 update)

[emunney]

Again, if they had done everything in their power to show they're not interested in Ramon, would they have tendered him? Would they publicly state that they preferred his return? They didn't tender CV. Even after locking up all but 1.6m of lux tax space, they still haven't pulled the tender. It seems obvious to me that they still intend on matching him if his contract is within their definition of a good contract, and I can't imagine they're doing it just in case he signs for a starting salary of 1.6m or lower. The negotiations remain open.

The Bucks can't revoke the tender, since it is past July 23. If Sessions doesn't accept the QO by the date on that QO, then the Bucks can pull it. The QO was only $1 mil and they were fine with him playing on the team this year. So why not offer it? He is still a positive asset.

I don't think Hammond wanted CV on the team. If he had tendered CV a QO, what chance is there that CV would be a Buck. I would guess it is a greater chance than Hammond wanted to gamble on.

The Bucks can revoke the QO, they would just need Sessions' approval to do so. I suspect he'd oblige.

[LUKE23]

worth 4mil to who?

Whoever gets him at that contract.

[BucksRUS]

Ramon doesn't have enough experience that some GM is going to take a risk on signing him to a long term deal

You're acting like any long-term deal is the same thing. Young players get signed to long-term offer sheets ALL THE TIME. I don't know where you are getting this from, I really don't.

How many have worked out? If you are talking about first round picks, the team can walk away from that contract after two years. Now Ramon is more proven than many first round picks, but he is no where near as proven as some players that reach RFA after a rookie scale contract.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

worth 4mil to who?

Whoever gets him at that contract.

thats where youre acting brain dead. there isnt anybody willing to offer him that deal other than the knicks. maybe.

[LUKE23]

thats where youre acting brain dead. there isnt anybody willing to offer him that deal other than the knicks. maybe.

No, I'm thinking completely logically. You're the one that fails to separate what someone has signed for from their actual value. Your argument is that whatever a player signs at-that is what he's actually worth. So I'm assuming you think Charlie Villanueva is worth $7M per year at 5 years? I'm going to disagree with you.

I'm assuming you also think David Lee's value is zero dollars along with Sessions. Hey, neither has signed yet!!!

[EastSideBucksFan]

I can't believe this is about to reach 300 pages.

I hope this situation doesn't get resolved for another few weeks.

I know we can hit 500!

[BucksRUS]

What do you mean? First off, the full MLE is ~6.7m/yr. 2nd, they haven't given him that offer because they don't want to pay him that much money for what could be any number of reasons. Maybe they don't think he's good enough, maybe they're too close to the luxury tax, maybe they're saving it for 2010, maybe their owner is hemorrhaging worth... who knows? Not you nor I.

Let's get back to the RFA/UFA thing. Please find another way to explain why you think they're the same for Sessions, given that no team wants to offer him the MLE, no team (except the Bucks) can offer him a one year contract, and the Bucks can match any offer deemed reasonable. You've said yourself that RFAs typically sign, when they sign, for ABOVE market value, to try to ensure their original team won't match. Isn't that alone enough to make RFA and UFA very different for Ramon? Could it be that the reason the Knicks, for example, haven't offered him a contract yet is that they DO want him, and they don't want to offer something the Bucks will match -- thus losing any chance at him -- yet they don't want to tie up too much money for 2010? And that maybe they're working on something to free up space so that the weight of the latter decreases?

In the Knicks case they would probably have preferred to offer him a one year deal, but they can't. If they really want him they will at least try to sign him to an offer sheet. If the Bucks match they aren't out anything. We won't know until something happens with this whole saga.

[emunney]

Let's look at Ben Gordon. Obviously much more proven than Sessions when he hit RFA, also obviously looking for much more money. Most thought he was delusional in seeking 12m/yr. He ended up signing for the QO -- not because nobody would have paid him 7-8m/yr -- and played 1 year at ~4.9 before proving that his demands weren't all that delusional by signing with the Pistons for 11.6m/yr.

The UFA market is just far more aggressive and open, and favors the players in that way. Who knows what kind of a deal Sessions would have gotten if he was a UFA in the early FA money tornado? Apart from Iverson, how many UFAs are still floating around out there? Is there anybody you'd rather have than Sessions? Anybody you'd rather have than Lee? Anybody you'd rather have than Kleiza? If it isn't the fact that those guys are all restricted that's kept them from getting a contract, what is it? Certainly there are UFAs who have unreasonable demands, too -- they just get MET.

[LUKE23]

The UFA market is just far more aggressive and open, and favors the players in that way.

That is what I've been trying to say the whole time, but you put it nicely there.

[Fight the Tank]

Can we sign Sessions to 1 year contingent on us relinquishing his RFA status the following year?

[BucksRUS]

Let's look at Ben Gordon. Obviously much more proven than Sessions when he hit RFA, also obviously looking for much more money. Most thought he was delusional in seeking 12m/yr. He ended up signing for the QO -- not because nobody would have paid him 7-8m/yr -- and played 1 year at ~4.9 before proving that his demands weren't all that delusional by signing with the Pistons for 11.6m/yr.

The UFA market is just far more aggressive and open, and favors the players in that way. Who knows what kind of a deal Sessions would have gotten if he was a UFA in the early FA money tornado? Apart from Iverson, how many UFAs are still floating around out there? Is there anybody you'd rather have than Sessions? Anybody you'd rather have than Lee? Anybody you'd rather have than Kleiza? If it isn't the fact that those guys are all restricted that's kept them from getting a contract, what is it? Certainly there are UFAs who have unreasonable demands, too -- they just get MET.

High dollar UFA's go first because there is less of them and you don't have to wait and have your cap tied up for 7 days as a RFA signing would do. So in a free for all you will get aggresive pricing like what happened with Gordon and CV. Next year won't be any different.

As for Gordon, it only takes one team to make an offer. We will see how Detroit likes their investment.

Lee has been asking for an offer over the MLE. Detroit may have has interest if he was a UFA. At this point when their are no UFA's of note, why wouldn't some team try to sign Ramon to an offer sheet. Their aren't many other options if you are looking for a PG.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

thats where youre acting brain dead. there isnt anybody willing to offer him that deal other than the knicks. maybe.

No, I'm thinking completely logically. You're the one that fails to separate what someone has signed for from their actual value. Your argument is that whatever a player signs at-that is what he's actually worth. So I'm assuming you think Charlie Villanueva is worth $7M per year at 5 years? I'm going to disagree with you.

I'm assuming you also think David Lee's value is zero dollars along with Sessions. Hey, neither has signed yet!!!

youre reasoning is so circular its almost not worth responding.

on one hand you say contract values DO NOTdetermine value, and then cite cv who was OVERpaid as proof.
using the logic that cvs contract is not market value because teams will often overpay for talent, you then want me to accept that sessions is somehow worth MORE than teams are offering?

your argument is nonsense. stop arguing just for the sake of it. hammond has played this perfectly.

[icat2000]

Yeap. No need for the Bucks to rush this process. Bucks made their move. Just waiting for Sessions. How many weeks have gone by now and Sessions still remains teamless?

[BucksRUS]

Yeap. No need for the Bucks to rush this process. Bucks made their move. Just waiting for Sessions. How many weeks have gone by now and Sessions still remains teamless?

Isn't it 8 weeks and counting on Wednesday?

[BDUB_30]

RFA's get offers all the time . Its just excuse making from the Ramon fan club. Nobody wants to pay this guy what he wants because hes not good enough. Dance around it all you want , its the honest to god truth.


Weve heard so many excuses for this its pathetic . The same exact thing about david lee. Hes sitting unsigned because he wants a certain amount of money that nobody wants to pay .

Uh, yeah, that is obviously true. The relevant matter, though, is what he's asking for. If he wants 7 a year and nobody will give him that, that's very different than being unable to get 3. The real fact is that you don't know what he's asking for, nor do you know what he's being offered. So what are you talking about? Maddenisms, basically. "Ya see, the reason Sessions can't get a contract is that he can't agree on a contract with any team." Brilliant.

Maybe if you had a better understanding of the cba and understood that their is a max Ramon could get youd have a further understanding that we do have SOME idea of what Ramon is asking for. Ramon cant get 7 millon per year , period . The most he could get is still not alot and concidering nobody is willing to give it to him , speaks volumes.


You can keep making excuses all you want , but Ramons situation even from what we know currently its safe to draw some conclusions . One conclusion is the leauge does not share the same feelings about his value as most do. I will say this though , that doesnt mean they are RIGHT ! Im perfectly open to the idea that alot of teams could be underating Ramons potential. I just dont think they are but we dont know that , and only time will tell it . But dont act brand new and act like we dont have a fairly accurate gauge of how the leauge feels about Ramon. The real question is , are they right ? Only time will tell , i honestly think they are but thats just my opionon.


The bottom line for me is . The real question surronding Ramon will not be answered for 3-4 seasons . Even if he signs a weak contract , thats not really a victory for people who think ramon is overated . A small one , but not conclusive enough . People that are claiming Ramon is overated wont really know if that opionon is true or not for 3-4 years. I can give you TJ ford as an example. I wanted nothing to do with TJ Ford being on this roster after he came back and turned into an extremely crappy version of allen iverson. Alot disagreed , told us about potential . Made comparisons to Isiah Thomas and all kinds of crap . Who was right ? TJ ford is NOT a marqe player and i would put him on the lower end of starting pgs leauge wide . Not a building block , not an answer at a position , but a subpar player that brings subpar results . Again , looking back do we have our answers on TJ Ford ? I think so .. and in time we will get our answers on Ramon. Maybe ill be wrong, i seriously doubt it though. I have a great track record and evaluate talent at a high level.

[trwi7]

He can get $7M a year. He just can't make more than the MLE this year and I believe an 8% raise on that next year.

[BDUB_30]

He can get $7M a year. He just can't make more than the MLE this year and I believe an 8% raise on that next year.

Right , he cant make more then the mle the first year , and an 8% raise the second year . In order for a team to exceed the 8% raise in the 3rd year , they would have to be under the cap by the average yearly cost of the contract .


I guess its possible but alot to wage.

[BDUB_30]

man what are the clipps waiting for , they got space. i didnt realize they were so far under the cap.

[BucksRUS]

man what are the clipps waiting for , they got space. i didnt realize they were so far under the cap.

They aren't under the cap, but they are under the tax. They would need to use their MLE to sign Ramon. They will have cap space available next year. Ramon's contract will cut into that, hence the hesitation with the contract offer.

[Joana]

Now I'm confused. Wasn't the theory that Hammond's moves made the Bucks lost all the leverage, hence turning Sessions into a de fact UFA (and that he'd quickly signed a contract)? What gives? Either:
1) the Bucks still have leverage.
2) Sessions' RFA status had nothing to do with the fact he's yet to be signed.

What is it, after all? Can't have it both ways.