MVP Rankings 1.0

[LeBronade]

The MVP will come down to the final couple of weeks of the season, unless one team gets a substantial lead in the standings, that is if LA or Cleveland get a big lead then the MVP will be obvious! Actually the only thing that will override the WINS factor is if LeBron wins Defensive Player of the Year!

[semi-sentient]

LeBron is not going to win DPOY, so you might as well get that idea out of your head.

[CzBoobie]

Ok, let's look at those supporting casts.

+/-? Kobe doesn't have the highest ON court nor OFF court +/- on his team. In fact he has only fourth best ON court numbers and he is behind Ron Artest in OFF court numbers. LeBron is 2nd in ON court and the best in OFF court.

Roland rating? Kobe has two teammates with roland rating over +11 (12.6 and 11.9 - that's top10 in the league apart from anomalies of players who play very very little, no kidding!). LeBron's best teammate has +8.2. Kobe has other two teammates who have better roland rating than Cavs' third best. To top it all, LeBron has higher roland rating than Kobe.

[INKtastic]

anyone know what site has adjusted +/- numbers?

[YLSKillaCam]

Ok, let's look at those supporting casts.

+/-? Kobe doesn't have the highest ON court nor OFF court +/- on his team. In fact he has only fourth best ON court numbers and he is behind Ron Artest in OFF court numbers. LeBron is 2nd in ON court and the best in OFF court.

Roland rating? Kobe has two teammates with roland rating over +11 (12.6 and 11.9 - that's top10 in the league apart from anomalies of players who play very very little, no kidding!). LeBron's best teammate has +8.2. Kobe has other two teammates who have better roland rating than Cavs' third best. To top it all, LeBron has higher roland rating than Kobe.

That's not what I said.

I said that when Kobe is off the floor, the Lakers are outscored by more than the Cavs when Lebron is off the floor. I also said that when Kobe is on the floor the Lakers outscore the other team more than the Cavs do when Lebron is on the floor. Actually, I was wrong because the information changed since yesterday. They are identical in being outscored when they are off the floor, but the Lakers are a much better team with Kobe on the floor.

The roland rating is not as important as overall +/-

Kobe for the season is at +264 while Lebron on the season is +238. That's huge.

They get 1.14 points for every possession lebron is on the floor and they give up 1.04 points for every possession Lebron is playing defense. They get an almost identical number of points for each possession while Kobe is on the floor (1.12; lebron is at 1.14), but the Lakers are much better defensively when Kobe is on the floor only giving up .99 points per possession on defense.

That indicates, to me, that the difference between the two players isn't on offense. It is on defense. Again, they have a huge disparity in net +/-.

[INKtastic]

The huge gap in efficiency continues to get glossed over. And admit it, when you watched the game christmas, LeBron wasn't anywhere near as ball dominant as you thought he is. He plays a ton off of the ball this year. Yet he maintains the high level of efficiency.

[Dat Pass]

The huge gap in efficiency continues to get glossed over. And admit it, when you watched the game christmas, LeBron wasn't anywhere near as ball dominant as you thought he is. He plays a ton off of the ball this year. Yet he maintains the high level of efficiency.

Ive watched alot of Cavs games this season, and he doesnt dominate the ball near as much as he did last season. However, what frustrates me the most is the argument of talent discrepancy. In my opinion, LeBron has exactly what he needs as far as teammates. Great shooters (3 teammates shooting 46%+ from 3), great defenders, great hustle guys and tremendous depth. Sure you can take a player by player comparison, but in all, I doubt the Cavs record would be much different if you switched everyone of Kobe's teammates with LeBrons. The Lakers have no shooters, guys that are very inconsistant, and no depth at all. I think the supporting cast argument gets WAY over used.

[YLSKillaCam]

The huge gap in efficiency continues to get glossed over. And admit it, when you watched the game christmas, LeBron wasn't anywhere near as ball dominant as you thought he is. He plays a ton off of the ball this year. Yet he maintains the high level of efficiency.

Well I'll admit that Lebron wasn't anywhere as ball dominant as I expected

But, Lebron's +/- in that game was only +8.

Z had a +21

AV had a +20

Parker +11

Williams + 13

Shaq + 9

So yeah, they spanked the Lakers because the impact of Lebron's teammates.

Either way, it is hard for me to see how this particular game makes Lebron MVP over Kobe especially given the arguments Cavs fans have been making since the beginning of this thread.

In other words, if the Lakers would have won and the results looked identical...what would you be saying about Kobe right now?

[Dat Pass]

Lets take an in depth look at Kobe's supporting cast:

Lamar Odom - Claimed by many as an "All-Star" or at least an "All-Star caliber player".. He is averaging a measly 8.6 points per game on 8.1 fga's and 8.5 rebounds in a little over 30 minutes. By comparison, Varejao gets roughly the same minutes, and puts up 7.9pts on 6.3 fga's and 7.9 rebounds. Yet, people think Varejao is garbage and Odom is an All-Star. Really people?

Andrew Bynum - Claimed by many as one of the best centers in the league. And while I agree that the potential is there, his stats are highly skewed due to Gasols injury. Lets check out his last 10 games, a more accurate projection of his role. The numbers: 9.6ppg and 5.3rpg on 38-78 shooting. (.487%) Really people? This is the guy that is a top center in the league? *Clevelands BACKUP center is putting up roughly the same numbers..

Ron Artest - Nothing bad to say about this guy. However, STOP claiming that he is still an All-Star. Hes not. Hes a great role player, nothing else.

Pau Gasol - Again, cant say anything bad about this guy. Solid All-Star, solid 2nd option. However, the claims around here that hes the best PF in the game are flat out ridiculous.

Who else on this team would even make Clevelands roster?

[tkb]

I think you can argue both for Kobe and LeBron at this point. Each player has a great case for being ranked at the top. I think there is a significant separation between those two and the rest, so as of right now the top 2 spots are theirs to lose.

I rank Kobe first and LeBron second right now, but that could change as the season progresses.

[INKtastic]

reasonable post by Ball Boy, but the difference between Odom and Andy is Odom can be trusted to run the offense and create for himself and others while you have to cringe if Andy decides to take more than one dribble. The counter to this is Odom tends to disappear for games for no apparent reason, while Andy is pretty consistent in what he brings from game to game.

[CzBoobie]

I think you can argue both for Kobe and LeBron at this point. Each player has a great case for being ranked at the top. I think there is a significant separation between those two and the rest, so as of right now the top 2 spots are theirs to lose.

I rank Kobe first and LeBron second right now, but that could change as the season progresses.

Yeah, pretty much...

[Father Time]

The christmas game was another loss for the Lakers when Kobe shoots under 40%. Where's LeBronscavs?

And the way LeBron scores off the ball reminds me of MJ. For some reason the Lakers don't run Kobe off many screens, or anything like that.

[semi-sentient]

reasonable post by Ball Boy, but the difference between Odom and Andy is Odom can be trusted to run the offense and create for himself and others while you have to cringe if Andy decides to take more than one dribble. The counter to this is Odom tends to disappear for games for no apparent reason, while Andy is pretty consistent in what he brings from game to game.

So doesn't that make it pretty much a wash?

I don't think Odom can be trusted to run the offense either. Outside of being able to dribble the ball up court and the occasional crafty pass he doesn't create much of anything. Odom is only effective when he feeds off of Bryant and Gasol. Other than that he's been largely useless this season, particularly when you consider how crappy our bench play has been.

The reason that Odom was so valuable last season is because Bynum's playing time was limited and he got the bulk of the minutes next to Pau/Kobe, but that hasn't translated over to this season in any way, shape, or form.

[CzBoobie]

The christmas game was another loss for the Lakers when Kobe shoots under 40%. Where's LeBronscavs?

Banned? And I guess all his aliases like WadesHeat, GasolsLakers, DurantsThunder already as well...

[kaiiu2324]

I'll say Lebron and Kobe are 1 and 2 and it is close. I give Lebron the slight edge because he has the same amount of wins as the Lakers and the Cavs only have 8 losses despite going 0-2 in the first 2 games.Not to mention the Cavs beat the Lakers. But Kobe is behind him followed by Dirk and Nash.And to who ever was talking the 2 supporting cast I think the Cavs as a whole has more depth than the Lakers. The Lakers just have more quality,superstar talent. The Cavs don't have a player on the Gasol level or with Bynum's potential. Mo Williams is at least = or > than Artest but he isnt better than Gasol,Bynum or Odom. But the Lakers bench is horrible

[Dat Pass]

reasonable post by Ball Boy, but the difference between Odom and Andy is Odom can be trusted to run the offense and create for himself and others while you have to cringe if Andy decides to take more than one dribble. The counter to this is Odom tends to disappear for games for no apparent reason, while Andy is pretty consistent in what he brings from game to game.

Thank you. Im glad that you can admit that. The disparity between the 2 players supporting casts is minimal at best. Sure the Lakers have Gasol, but other than that no one really stands out on the Lakers when you really look into it. Bynum is good, but with Gasol in the lineup his impact probably isnt even what Shaq's is.. And Odom is very comparable to Varejao. Artest is a great role player, Ill give you that, but like I mentioned, other than those 4, no one on the Lakers even makes the Cleveland roster.

[Dat Pass]

I'll say Lebron and Kobe are 1 and 2 and it is close. I give Lebron the slight edge because he has the same amount of wins as the Lakers and the Cavs only have 8 losses despite going 0-2 in the first 2 games.Not to mention the Cavs beat the Lakers. But Kobe is behind him followed by Dirk and Nash.And to who ever was talking the 2 supporting cast I think the Cavs as a whole has more depth than the Lakers. The Lakers just have more quality,superstar talent. The Cavs don't have a player on the Gasol level or with Bynum's potential. Mo Williams is at least = or > than Artest but he isnt better than Gasol,Bynum or Odom. But the Lakers bench is horrible

Are you f***ing with me?

Odom is better than Mo Williams?

Odom is an 8-8 player barely shooting 42%. And thats in 30 minutes of work.

And as I mentioned, with Gasol in the lineup, Bynum is a 12-8 player.
(The combo of Shaq/Big Z is better than Bynum IMO)

[kaiiu2324]

I'll say Lebron and Kobe are 1 and 2 and it is close. I give Lebron the slight edge because he has the same amount of wins as the Lakers and the Cavs only have 8 losses despite going 0-2 in the first 2 games.Not to mention the Cavs beat the Lakers. But Kobe is behind him followed by Dirk and Nash.And to who ever was talking the 2 supporting cast I think the Cavs as a whole has more depth than the Lakers. The Lakers just have more quality,superstar talent. The Cavs don't have a player on the Gasol level or with Bynum's potential. Mo Williams is at least = or > than Artest but he isnt better than Gasol,Bynum or Odom. But the Lakers bench is horrible

Are you f***ing with me?

Odom is better than Mo Williams?

Odom is an 8-8 player barely shooting 42%. And thats in 30 minutes of work.

And as I mentioned, with Gasol in the lineup, Bynum is a 12-8 player.
(The combo of Shaq/Big Z is better than Bynum IMO)

I'll take a 6'10 versatile point forward over a 6'1 combo guard any day. The only thing is Lebron already is a point forward so a combo guard like Mo is a good fit. Odom is a player who is most effective in the starting line up. The Lakers have sort of a problem. Its either 2 things let Odom in the starting line up where he is most effective and move Gasol to the C where he is the primary post player.The only problem is Bynum is a top 5 center in this league and I dont think he could embrace the role.With Bynum off the bench, the bench players can play through him.The thing that makes the Lakers so good is that a Gasol/Bynum or Gasol/Odom are both deadly.

[HouMac]

Lebron's defense has regressed from last year, and Kobe's has improved.

LeBron's played some of the best D of his career over the last month. There's nothing wrong with his D. He currently looks as good as ever.

Also....

Kobe 30 4 6
Lebron 29 8 7

If Lebron has a statistical advantage (which he does) it is small enough to be insignificant.

Oh Please. LeBron's statistical edge is hardly insignificant.

LJ 28.8 ppg(FG% .502), 6.9 rpg, 7.8 rpg, 1.4 spg, 0.8 bpg, 30.0 PER
KB 29.8 ppg(FG% .483), 5.8 rpg, 4.3 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.2 bpg, 24.5 PER

LeBron has a 16% edge in rebounds, 45% edge in assists, 75% edge in blocks, 18% edge in PER and is the FAR more efficient scorer. All Kobe has going for him is 1 extra ppg, only so because he takes 3 more FGA.

Now consider this...the statistical advantage becomes even more insignificant when you add in the defensive stats.

Kobe 2.2 SPG 0.2 BLK
Lebron 1.3 SPG 0.8 BLK

Huh? What exactly is this supposed to prove? The difference between LeBron's edge in bpg(75%) is A LOT bigger than Kobe's edge in spg(36%). If anything, the defensive stats are on LeBron's side too.

NOT TO MENTION, Kobe is doing what he's doing with a broken finger on his shooting hand and now a strained right elbow (shooting arm).

Please. Kobe has a jammed finger on his shooting hand, it's called an avulsion fracture and according to doctors, it has 90% of its functionality during the healing process. In other words - IT'S A NON ISSUE, and Kobe's play since the supposed "injury" further backs this up.

As far as the strained elbow's concerned, this is a joke right? He hurt it in his last game an it's been an issue for 1 freaking qtr this entire season.

Kobe is doing this year is more impressive

Umm, how? He has a 1 1/2 game lead despite a better cast and playing just about the softest schedule a team has ever started off with. His individual numbers are significantly inferior in every way and his "injury" is a sham.

than what Lebron is doing with an improved supporting cast

How's Kobe's cast not IMPROVED from last season? LA acquired Artest for Ariza, and Bynum's play has been better too. And again, I also don't see why Kobe's inability to stay healthy(which is a bunch of BS anyway) should be LeBron's issue in the MVP race. The less durable and the less productive guy somehow becomes more valuable? Weird logic.

while playing in a significantly weaker conference.

As mentioned numerous times already, this argument simply doesn't fly right now. LA's played the softest schedule in the league thus far.

If Kobe keeps doing what he's doing, unless the Cavs finish ahead of the Lakers, Kobe will win the MVP.

Kobe's still perceived to have a much better cast than LeBron, and that perception is FACT. A 2-3 game lead in the standings will be IRRELEVANT for him when it comes to the MVP voting. Kobe better have something else going for him besides team record to win MVP.