The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[Dat2U]

I don't really have the passion for a spirited debate, but I'm bumping this purely because the Flip Saunders Appreciation thread is at the top.

If Flip were a better coach I believe the Wizards would have 5-7 more wins.

I think he's truly been a bad coach this season.

Uh, no. At some point, you have to stop blaming the coach for everything. This roster is pure *ss. There is not one coach in professional basketball that could squeeze 5-7 more wins out this team.

I don't think Flip's been great, but realistically, what could one have hoped for with this collection of goofs, oddballs and losers?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Every now and then, even you're wrong, Dat.

MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS: Flip definitely has pure *ss to work with now.

I'm not blaming Flip for anything right now. I flopped on Flip way back in November. I felt the same way in December. And after hearing him say Jamison, Butler, and Miller are the ones committed to doing what's right I see that he's going by what they say and not how they play. Actually, Jamison's beasting this season offensively and intensity-wise, and Miller's been awesome when well. I see Flip's support as myopic, however.

It's just I will forever think he needed to make Caron or Antawn a sixth man earlier, or move Butler to SG earlier. I hate the veteran, small ball, jump shooting, lineups he used all year. The offense was fine before him and the defense has regressed. I say Flip is a big part of it.

Of about 10 winnable games, I think a better coach could have won 5.

Right now Flip looks like the good guy because he's benching Blatche. Honestly the Wizards see Jamison smiling and don't fine him. Ernie brought all this together. Absolutely nothing's going well.

I just choose to lump Flip right in with what's going wrong.

[TheSecretWeapon]

At some point, you have to look at the players. I'm sure Flip hasn't done a perfect job this season, and I'm sure he'd tell you that. But to believe he became a bad coach this season after doing a good job at two other NBA stops is a stretch for me.

So far, we're three for three on coaches seeing the same things out of these players (Saunders, Tapscott and Jordan). They see these guys every day. Every practice, every meeting, every flight, ever game.

Now, Tapscott was not a good coach. But, he's a very smart guy who knows the game pretty well. EJ is a smart guy, a good offensive coach, and he knows the game extremely well. Saunders is a smart guy, a good offensive coach, and he knows the game extremely well. All three have been around the NBA a loooong time.

What we have are the same kinds of comments about the same guys coming from the mouth of three different people. Maybe they have a point.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Here's my problem: They keep praising and playing the very players who aren't getting it done.

Jamison and Butler at Fs is not working. Hasn't worked for some time. Won't work. Can't work.

Yet, Flip says those two and Miller are committed to doing what it takes to win. Huh????

My thought: They're offensive players. It's a shame Jamison isn't the younger or that he doesn't have the lesser contract, because I'd easily keep him and ship Butler. As it is, you've got a problem no matter what.

As it is, I honestly can't see what Flip can do outside of getting very lucky in trades and the draft.

As for the players the Wizards do not like, that's real easy: Trade them. The Wizards need to trade Blatche, Young, and McGee because they're not Flip guys. Dom's apparently a no-talent if he never plays for Flip. Let him go. As for the guys he likes, keep Foye at a good rate and resign Miller. Trade one or both of Jamison and Butler. Make sure Stevenson goes in a package with another player.

(I would hope EG's not the one making the deals. Sorry, LR.)

Raze the team to Flip's liking and we'll see in a year or two how things are going.

[TheSecretWeapon]

And, Flip's alternative to Jamison and Butler at forward is what? A guy who pouts when he doesn't get enough shots to satisfy him? Who won't execute his offensive responsibilities because he feels like he doesn't get the ball enough? Who refuses to listen to coaches when they're trying to talk to him? Who won't get treatment on a sore knee except when it won't interfere with his social activities? Who responds to a suspension by posting on his Facebook page that he's going to Atlantic City?

I'm not about to argue that coaches have been perfect in their playing time decisions. I argued for a LOOOOOOOONG time that Haywood needed more minutes (and I was right). But, when you have three different coaches making the same lineup decisions for the same reasons, I think it's time to stop blaming the coaches and start looking at the players. The message from all three coaches has been the same: Grow up. Work hard. Pay attention. Do your job. The message from these young players has also been the same: F off.

So yeah, it's time to raze the team. I wouldn't be ready to give up on McGee yet, because he's only in his 2nd season and he has a world of potential. Maybe with Young and Blatche gone, and a more professional locker room he'll take the game more seriously and become the kind of player I think he can be.

But it's time to stop blaming the coaches. The problem is the players. Players who were abetted and enabled by a front office that undermined at least one coach's efforts to impose some discipline.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

And, Flip's alternative to Jamison and Butler at forward is what? A guy who pouts when he doesn't get enough shots to satisfy him? Who won't execute his offensive responsibilities because he feels like he doesn't get the ball enough? Who refuses to listen to coaches when they're trying to talk to him? Who won't get treatment on a sore knee except when it won't interfere with his social activities? Who responds to a suspension by posting on his Facebook page that he's going to Atlantic City?

I'm not about to argue that coaches have been perfect in their playing time decisions. I argued for a LOOOOOOOONG time that Haywood needed more minutes (and I was right). But, when you have three different coaches making the same lineup decisions for the same reasons, I think it's time to stop blaming the coaches and start looking at the players. The message from all three coaches has been the same: Grow up. Work hard. Pay attention. Do your job. The message from these young players has also been the same: F off.

So yeah, it's time to raze the team. I wouldn't be ready to give up on McGee yet, because he's only in his 2nd season and he has a world of potential. Maybe with Young and Blatche gone, and a more professional locker room he'll take the game more seriously and become the kind of player I think he can be.

But it's time to stop blaming the coaches. The problem is the players. Players who were abetted and enabled by a front office that undermined at least one coach's efforts to impose some discipline.

The thing is he and Flip have gotten off to a HORRIBLE start and Flip's not going anywhere.

McGee's talent isn't in question. I don't see Saunders EVER liking McGee and vice versa.

[floppymoose]

What do you think about a Blatche/Azubuike trade? Kelenna is out for the season but should be fine next season, and he'll give you scoring and rebounding from the wing. And his contract is one year shorter.

It might be a good preface to a Butler trade, if you can get a big back for Butler.

[LyricalRico]

What do you think about a Blatche/Azubuike trade?

Nah, I'd prefer to get more than an injured mediocre swingman in exchange for a young near 7-footer with talent. You want Stevenson or Nick Young?

[DCZards]

And after hearing him say Jamison, Butler, and Miller are the ones committed to doing what's right I see that he's going by what they say and not how they play. Actually, Jamison's beasting this season offensively and intensity-wise, and Miller's been awesome when well. I see Flip's support as myopic, however.

Why not take Flip at his word when he singles out certain players for praise? He seems like a straight-shooter to me. He sees what goes on behind the scenes--who's always working on their games, who's trying to learn the plays, who's coming to practice on time and showing up early for games, who's hitting the weights, who's going to the medical staff for treatment when necessary, who's not moping or mouthing off to the coaches, and who's staying positive in the midst of these tough times. These are things that none of us are privvy to so I'm going to take Flip at his word when he says these are the guys committed to winning in his opinion.

[LyricalRico]

And after hearing him say Jamison, Butler, and Miller are the ones committed to doing what's right I see that he's going by what they say and not how they play. Actually, Jamison's beasting this season offensively and intensity-wise, and Miller's been awesome when well. I see Flip's support as myopic, however.

Why not take Flip at his word when he singles out certain players for praise? He seems like a straight-shooter to me. He sees what goes on behind the scenes--who's always working on their games, who's trying to learn the plays, who's coming to practice on time and showing up early for games, who's hitting the weights, who's going to the medical staff for treatment when necessary, who's not moping or mouthing off to the coaches, and who's staying positive in the midst of these tough times. These are things that none of us are privvy to so I'm going to take Flip at his word when he says these are the guys committed to winning in his opinion.

[closg00]

Last night vs the Hawks, shades of EJ.

Foye - 45:34
Jamison - 45:42
Butler - 42:14
McGee - DNP (?)
Orberto - DNP (Grunfeld FAILURE)

[TheSecretWeapon]

The thing is he and Flip have gotten off to a HORRIBLE start and Flip's not going anywhere.

McGee's talent isn't in question. I don't see Saunders EVER liking McGee and vice versa.

Maybe this is semantic, but I think McGee's ABILITY is not in question -- meaning his physical capacity to play basketball. His TALENT isn't developed (yet?) because of his lack of effort and mental lapses.

As for the relationship between Flip and McGee, I think it would improve at an astonishing rate if McGee would pay attention, learn the playbook (on both ends), rotate on defense, execute the offense and hit the weight room. If he did that, he'd play all the minutes he wants.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Semantics, indeed, TSW. His "ability" in your words is what I'd call God-given talent. The "talent isn't developed" in your words means to me his "skill isn't developed". Regardless of the words we're using, I'm sure we mean the same thing.

However, your assertion that the relationship would improve if he learned the playbook, rotated on defense, executed the offense, and hit the weight room then he'd play all the minutes he wants .... I totally disagree with. Flip prefers what the guys in front of McGee bring to the table--Oberto, Blatche, and Haywood.

Flip's perception IMO of McGee wouldn't change if McGee did all that he needs to do and began to dominate in practice. He'd still dislike the kid. Just my opinion.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Flip might still dislike him on an interpersonal basis, but he'd play him.

Just to be clear, though -- I'm not sure we know that Flip dislikes Javale on an interpersonal basis right now. The fact that Flip isn't playing him says nothing about their interpersonal relationship. It may just mean that Flip wants to see certain things from McGee before he gives him playing time.

[nate33]

Flip might still dislike him on an interpersonal basis, but he'd play him.

Just to be clear, though -- I'm not sure we know that Flip dislikes Javale on an interpersonal basis right now. The fact that Flip isn't playing him says nothing about their interpersonal relationship. It may just mean that Flip wants to see certain things from McGee before he gives him playing time.

I'd like to see McGee box somebody out just once. He is averaging 3.6 defensive boards per 36 minutes. Deshawn freaking Stevenson and Gilbert Arenas have better defensive rebounding percentages.

[closg00]

Finally an advocate for common sense in the media.

The other player that the Wizards need to play is JaVale McGee. Yes, Saunders have given him shots here and there throughout the season. Yes, McGee shows great potential at times and then shows a lack of common sense other times. But as with James, at this point, what do you have to lose by not playing McGee. Play James and possibly you get a little something in return that can help you temporarily or for the future. But if the Wizards don't play McGee they're possibly hurting themselves even more.

Brendan Haywood is going to be a free agent this summer. McGee is supposed to be the center of the future. Wizards officials have said they see him as a future multiple-year All-Star. But, how do you really know if you don't play him. Maybe the kid has all that in store. But maybe he does not. The Wizards could go into the summer not really knowing what they have at the center position. What if Haywood says, 'See ya, I'm getting the heck out of dodge!' Do the Wizards have the starting center they need in McGee, or do they need to draft or sign another big man?

http://www.mikejonessports.com/2010/01/ ... -shot.html

[nate33]

Finally an advocate for common sense in the media.
http://www.mikejonessports.com/2010/01/ ... -shot.html

He actually makes a real good point about Mike James. We brought Boykins in because James and Crittenton were both hurt and Foye wasn't getting the job done at PG. But now that James is back and healthy, can't we at least see if he can take the job from Boykins? James is a pretty good defender and not so awful scorer. He's not a pure PG, but then neither is Foye (or Boykins, for that matter).

Play James off the bench at PG or even SG. Don't bench Young and don't ever play Stevenson.

[Hoopalotta]

Stevenson's about to enter the starting lineup.

I imagine this thread will have something to say about that.

And hey, free Chucky Atkins too!

[MJG]

Stevenson's about to enter the starting lineup.

I imagine this thread will have something to say about that.

And hey, free Chucky Atkins too!

I've already fallen down to watching maybe 5-10 minutes of the games that I can be bothered to remember are on. Stevenson moving into the starting lineup will be the end of even that little sign of interest for me - I will officially become a box score checker until a trade happens.

[closg00]

Stevenson's about to enter the starting lineup.

I imagine this thread will have something to say about that.

And hey, free Chucky Atkins too!

I've already fallen down to watching maybe 5-10 minutes of the games that I can be bothered to remember are on. Stevenson moving into the starting lineup will be the end of even that little sign of interest for me - I will officially become a box score checker until a trade happens.

..and that's exactly what I did this morning, check the box score.