NBA/ABA Decades League Discussion Thread

[SamBone]

pancakes, please do not discuss undrafted players when talking about peoples teams and picks. Simply say that you think better options are on the board!

Me personally was not looking for a better scorer or a 6'9 guy to play C so I went with Parish. We all have our own opinions

[BlackIce]

Whadda guys think over my Mutombo pick over Thurmand? I was going back and forth on both but Thurmands fg% scared me away. I'm interested to see the order some of these wing guys go.

I prefer Mutombo because of his size and because the blocks were recorded. IMHO if your considering either you already have an elite scorer on the wing so having Dekes fewer FGA only helps and his FG% adv is another plus. Thurmond had this pet 14ft shot that he loved but he couldnt hit. Kind of like Josh Smith thinking he was Ray Allen.

My thoughts as well, with all the offensive monsters I knew would be around I wasn't overly concerned about Thurmands offensive advantage over Mutombo, especially when you consider efficientcy.

TMac was a steal he was the guy I was thinking of when I was wondering about wing guys. Theres still a beastly SG on the board and a fantastic SF as well when you consider one year peaks. Both are as good as a few wing guys that went before them but I think the reason they dropped was that they weren't 3 point shooters, and aren't all NBA defense, I think Myth may take the SG...

[pancakes3]

6'9 in the 70's is 6'10 in shoes. pretty much dwight howard who was picked a round earlier.

[Baller 24]

Follow-up on the Reed pick:

I'm using his '70 season, he's 20PPG/14REB/51%

Awards: NBA MVP, NBA Champion, NBA Finals MVP, All NBA First Team, All NBA First Defensive Team

Willis fits perfectly next to Russell, he's got the mid-range game to provide spacing around the basket, and he's an absolute defensive beast, due to anchoring on of the best defensive teams ('70s Knicks) in league history. He'll fill the roll of spacing out properly, and he'll help out Russell setting some nasty screens. Russell/Reed creating screens for Wade/Hill is going to be absolutely devastating for defenses to handle.

[Miller4ever]

Wow, I was thinking Warspite was a huge Thurmond fan. Must've been someone else.

Me. I really think Nate is great. In addition to the man D and the rebounding, he's one of the GOAT pick-setters, and as mentioned before, his offense would be more efficient in ATL's.

[Warspite]

Warspites top 9 fav teams so far (in no order)

1. SamBone: MJ/Pettit/Nash/Parish

Best ATL team MJ has ever played on. This team can run you out of the gym and they can rebound. Playing this team is 5 on 8 because no team gets the love of the refs like MJ/Pettit

2. TMACforMVP: Hakeem/Barry/Lucas/CP3

Just another stellar job of taking players that should have been drafted earlier. Please dont let him take the SG I think would make his team undefendable.

3. ALLintheName: Shaq/Frazier/Moncrief/Rodman

A great def team that can cover up Shaqs pick and roll defense. A 3pt SF is all thats missing

4. Mythbreaker: Duncan/Gilmore/Stockton/Cunningham

Best rebounding frontcourt and a stellar interior defense.

5. Bryant08: DrJ/Charles/Ewing/Billups

This team has talent and star power. With the right glue guy this team can win.

6. SnakeBites Walton/Kobe/McHale/Wilkens

This team can flat out can play. Interior defense/great backcourt a HoFer everywhere. They can go fast or slow. just missing a shooter.

7. BlackIce: West/KG/Deke/DJ

Im warming up to this team. Frontcourt defense that can match Myths team and a clutch closer like no other. Most likely the best def backcourt in the league and the 80s for SF. This team is a darkhorse .

8. Baller: Russell/Wade/Hill/Reed

Any team with Russell and another MVP has to be taken seriously. Im a huge Hill fan and Wade is prving to be a Hof alent. The choice of PG weighs heavily here. I like the offense but they will win or lose on defense.

9. Cellardoor: Bird/GP/Lanier/Hawkins

What I like here is that Bird always gets into the paint and forces def Cs to rotate and if Bird has a C with soft hands and can step out and shoot its money. With lanier its a great fit. Connie Hawkins is a ? but if anyone can get him to play hard its Larry Bird.

Questions for GMs to consider moving forward
1. Bruh man: Your 4 starters avg 120ppg but 15apg(Oscar getting 8) and nobody plays any defense on your team. Are guys that avg less than 30ppg allowed on your team? How about a guy with all def team award?

2. Miller forever: Are you realy going to play a C with 42%FG at PF? Especialy after how well it worked last time he was a PF in his rookie yr.

3. pancakes: Another team thats 4 starters avg 120ppg I love some of your players but who is getting a stop for you and who can block a shot?

[bastillon]

actually I went with Cowens as my PF. I had already taken Dwight the round before. I was looking for a guy who could shoot, because I already had Dwight, Magic and Pippen. not that they can't shoot, but to provide some spacing in the half court would be nice. Cowens was also great hustler, passer and rebounder - he didn't need touches in order to be effective. he could run the floor too. not to mention that he competed with KAJ for MVP in the 70s and played on some very succesful teams.

I regret a bit not taking Thurmond. Dwight is worlds away on offense and much more impactful in general, but now I gotta draft a guard from the 60s and that won't be pretty.

[Warspite]

actually I went with Cowens as my PF. I had already taken Dwight the round before. I was looking for a guy who could shoot, because I already had Dwight, Magic and Pippen. not that they can't shoot, but to provide some spacing in the half court would be nice. Cowens was also great hustler, passer and rebounder - he didn't need touches in order to be effective. he could run the floor too. not to mention that he competed with KAJ for MVP in the 70s and played on some very succesful teams.

I regret a bit not taking Thurmond. Dwight is worlds away on offense and much more impactful in general, but now I gotta draft a guard from the 60s and that won't be pretty.

I like what you did and think your putting it together.

I have several SGs that I like for your team.

the sixers alltime scorer
The Hawks had a sweet guy
A certain duo in Chicago one whos a great coach today in utah and the other John Lennon said is all you need.
in 1967 the NBAs leading scorer was a SG
Then theres a guy they called black jesus becase of the miracles he did with the ball.

[Bruh Man]

Warspites top 9 fav teams so far (in no order)
Questions for GMs to consider moving forward
1. Bruh man: Your 4 starters avg 120ppg but 15apg(Oscar getting 8) and nobody plays any defense on your team. Are guys that avg less than 30ppg allowed on your team? How about a guy with all def team award?

I don't think assists is a problem since Oscar will be running the show, besides all 4 players can create for themselves. True though I probably should have picked a lock down perimeter defender I really didn't think this whole draft through though, I just tried to pick the best players left. Malone made all def teams a few years in a row, Gervin although not a great defender was the first NBA gaurd to block 100 shots in one season. I think my team somewhat makes up for it though with great athleticism, Malone and Dominique are physical specimens while Oscar is a mismatch for any pg. I just need a defensive center, still don't know who im going with but i got a few ideas.

[bastillon]

I'll try to go with the one who brings intangibles and doesn't need touches to be effective. as I'm thinking about it, I'll have a showtime modified with Magic running the show, both big men being extremely fast in the open court and Pippen as unstoppable scorer in transition alongside Magic. I'll try to put a great defensive team together and especially on rebounds to make stops and go out and play in the open court. there are some potential monster steals in the 70s and 80s left though. versatility personified and MJ's idol... I hope they'll go soon enough.

[SabasRevenge!]

C: Mourning
F: Unseld
F: James
G: Havlicek
G: Cooper

Tall First Starting Five Summary:
Red Auerbach called John Havlicek "the guts of the team." Havlicek once said that he never got tired during a basketball game and we plan to let him do his thing - run his opponent into the ground. As our first pick, Hondo sets the tone for our squad. He's a legendary hard worker who was a top player on both sides of the ball. It didn't take him long to develop a nice outside shot and he would be a three point threat in the modern NBA. After Russell retired, he was the leader of the young 70's Celtics and made them champions. He is the perfect leader for our team.

Lebron James is our featured offensive weapon. He owns the 3rd highest PER of all time and is the most unique athlete the NBA has ever seen. James is simply a nightmare for any ATL opponent and he will be our #1 option/heavy lifter on offense. We like his fit with Hondo, another playmaker, and the two of them will share primary playmaking duties on offense.

Alonzo Mourning is another tough as nails, all guts player. The primary offensive weapon in his prime, Zo, along with Hondo, are our secondary offensive weapons after James. Mourning's defensive prowess provides us an all-important anchor in the post and he is yet another superb rebounder.

If Mourning is tough, then Unseld is absolutely brutal. The anchor of the Bullets defense, Unseld is another bruiser who did all the little things. One of the greatest rebounders the NBA has ever seen, Unseld is our fourth superior rebounder in the starting lineup. With James and Hondo providing so much motion on offense, Unseld's famous picks and outlet passes will be put to good use.

Lastly, Michael Cooper is our glue guy in the backcourt as Unseld is our glue guy in the front court. We will feel free to put Coop on our opponent's best G/F. Coop's defensive focus was legendary and his outside shooting (2nd most makes on high % in his chosen season) and passing/ball-handling will be a perfect compliment on the other end.

Ultimately, nobody will work harder or hustle more than this squad. We have a DPOY in the front court and back court, another defensive anchor in the front court, and two 1st team all defense wings. Offensively, we aren't crowded and we have nice balance. We have a big three on offense with a clear #1 option and two fantastic role players. Most importantly, we do all the little things that are necessary to win.

[pancakes3]

3. pancakes: Another team thats 4 starters avg 120ppg I love some of your players but who is getting a stop for you and who can block a shot?

I think the offensive reputation of my guys is overshadowing their defensive abilities. These guys are solid defenders who are more than capable of playing adequate defense. They won't win games off their defense like other teams, but their defense is solid enough that it's not a severe handicap.

Baylor played mostly in an era without all-defense nods, and exclusively in an era without DPOYs. In his 3rd to last season, and last effective season - '69 he lost out on the innaugural All-D Squad to Havlicek. So he's not the defender that Havlicek was, but then again not a lot of small forwards are. Considering his freakish rebounding (the only qualifier available), along with anecdotal evidence of his awesome athleticism, i'm sure his defense wasn't porous.

McAdoo has a reputation for being one of the greatest shooters ever, but his stats show that early in his career, his athleticism allowed him to be a dynamo on the court. At Buffalo his rebounds and blocks though inflated, still adjust to be 13.7/2.8. Those are Garnett-esque numbers would be more fitting. It's not exactly blasphemous to compare young McAdoo with Garnett either. Garnett's twolves peaked at 6th in defense in the magical 04 season, but for the most part they were middling defensive teams at best. McAdoo's talent in Buffalo was abysmal (no real PF/C to pair up with Bob) and they still managed to stick around 9th out of 18 in the league defensively (4th offensively).

Imo, Malone probably is one of the more underrated defenders. He did manage 2 all-d nods, as well as thoroughly outplaying KAJ in the 83 finals. When considering his career, Moses probably wasn't a VERY good defender. However if we're considering peaks - from '79 through 87 his defense was GOOD ENOUGH. Well, he was good enough to be in contention for best center in the league for almost a decade. I guess you could poke holes in that Hakeem wasn't on the scene yet, and that KAJ was old, blah blah blah. But if you do that, I'm sure the same argument would apply to 70's KAJ where he was virtually unopposed (and when confronted by Walton lost decisively). Malone played as best he could and was the cornerstone Center of the most successful playoff team ever while being #5 in the league in defense. He outplayed KAJ both times they met in the playoffs 81, and 83. He didn't shut KAJ down but he certainly held him below his normal averages, which to me suggests at least passably good defense.

As for my latest pick of Deron Williams, I feel like will get disrespected around here too. Williams's defensive prowess in a word is serviceable. he's not a good defender. I'll freely admit that. However its not bad either. He's not as bad a defender as Nash (and Nash isn't even that bad of a defender). He plays big guards like Billups and Nash well, and he's quick enough to keep up with nimblier guards like Paul, Felton, and Rondo. His defense is just like his offense - not flashy. He plays hard, and he plays smart. Sounds analogous to another Jazz PG i know of. Clearly Deron isn't quite the ballhawk that Stockton was, but he's intelligent and disciplined enough to play defense without being a liability.

[bastillon]

your points are valid pancakes though comparing McAdoo to Garnett is a ridiculous reach.

KG anchored the best defense ever (or one of the best) when he had competent teammates around him. during the TWolves days his partners were some of the worst defenders in the league - Hudson, Peeler, Szczerbiak... without him they were the worst defensive team in the league by far (statistically proven by on/off). really there wasn't anything that he could do there and actually he had (by FAR) the highest defensive +/- of the 03 on period, way higher than Duncan for example. that's saying a lot. I suppose McAdoo was a fine defender in his own right, but his impact is nowhere close to defensive dominance that Garnett presented during his career.

to support that notion - look at all-defense selections.

Garnett has been an all-defensive first teamer this entire decade with the exception of 06 and 07 where he was 2nd teamer. obviously KG was better defender than 2nd team anyway, but when you're playing with bunch of retards who are widely considered as cancers and are known for their terrible defense, your team D is gonna suffer and thus you won't get much recognition from the media. it's still impressive that he was able to make first teams so many times with such terrible teammates defensively.

DPOTY votings confirm that:

Code: Select all

year     DPOTY rank
 98         11th
 99          7th
 00          7th
 01          2nd
 02          2nd
 03          3rd
 04          6th
 05          9th
 06         13th
 07         13th
 08          1st
 09          8th

you can see that Garnett has always been considered one of the league's premier defenders. I'd still say he was disrespected here because his numbers aren't as flashy as some of the other defenders and he had to play with some terrible teammates, and in the small market as well. no wonder why he didn't get much recognition defensively. once he was traded to Boston, he was widely acknowledged as the best defender in the game (08 DPOTY voting was a total blowout), despite being past prime. people finally could see what KG is capable of when his teammates are competent. not only that he was dominant, he made everyone around him better defensively and all of a sudden guys like Pierce or Rondo became "very good" to borderline "great" instead of "solid/good" and Allen became "good" whereas he had been a liability defensively before (and he was past prime, too).

KG is flat out dominant defender.

now look at McAdoo - in his entire career he didn't manage to make one defensive team either first or second. he wasn't considered as a great defender, period. you can't simply look at extremely inflated boxscore stats and by that false impression assume that he was equal to KG defensively, that's not how it works. essentially nobody considered him as premier defender in the league and his boxscore stats aren't really amazing anyway (after adjusting for pace).

come on now, Garnett was worlds away as a defender.

[pancakes3]

i wrote the KG comparison a little tongue in cheek but the idea was that young McAdoo put up silly stats on a crap squad the same as Garnett. HIs board/block numbers PRE-pace adjust are 15.1/3.1, and POST pace adjust it's 12.7/2.8. That's why i said his numbers were comparable to KG's.

I wouldn't say KG was a flat out dominant defender either. Ben Wallace, Mutombo, Russell - they're flat out dominant defenders. KG was merely a VERY GOOD defender. Honestly, as a defender I don't think he's much more imposing than Camby.

I do think KG is a better defender than McAdoo. For sure. Superficially the all-d nods and the DPOY can attest to that. However, I think McAdoo's turbulent career coupled with his career coinciding with Nate Thurmond and KAJ explain the lack of all-d nods.

Anyway, the point is that McAdoo might not have been a transcendently good defensive player but he was certainly an elite player. THere are plenty of PFs in the game who aren't renown for their defense and yet were still able to play rather good D. Currently Gasol comes to mind. Webber is another. Neither are the same caliber of defender that KG is but neither are crippling bad either.

I was just getting a bit overdefensive from warspite's callout. He made it sound like my team was soft. I was just stepping up to bat for my imaginary players.

[bastillon]

even if we go by his outlier season '74 during which he avged 3.1 BPG (never reached 2.2 after that) and adjust his numbers by per40 and to Wolves 04 pace he posted such a statline (added KG and non-outlier McAdoo for comparison):

Code: Select all

             PPG   RPG   APG   SPG   BPG   TS%
KG     '04  24.6  14.1   5.1   1.5   2.2  54.7
McAdoo '74  22.7  11.2   1.7   0.9   2.5  59.4
McAdoo '75  26.4  10.8   1.7   0.8   1.7  56.9

your pace-adjustments are simply wrong. to ilustrate what pace we're talking about:
Wolves 04 played with 89 poss/game.
D'Antoni's Suns played at about 95-100 poss/game.
McAdoo's Buffalo played at 111.6 poss/game in '74 and 107.7 in '75.

[bastillon]

Bryant08 can't choose Pierce bc he already has Billups.

[BlackIce]

He's a bench guy so the pick is ok.

[All In The Name]

Bryant08 can't choose Pierce bc he already has Billups.

He can pick Pierce, but he can't start both Billups and Pierce (assuming he's using the 2000s for both). The rule was that your first three picks had to be starters and that your starters must play at least 25 MPG, but, at this point, you can take bench players.

[pancakes3]

i just did a quick normalization to 100 poss/game.

[Miller4ever]

2. Miller forever: Are you realy going to play a C with 42%FG at PF? Especialy after how well it worked last time he was a PF in his rookie yr.

Whenever a 3rd or 4th option offensive player gets asked to be a volume scorer, of course their FG% is going to suffer, but in the right role, their efficiency is increased. Kareem will be my 1st option. I didn't add him in the 3rd round for firepower. I added him for everything else that he does. He will do everything except shoot on my team. He can man-defend, block shots, rebound on both ends, set picks, pass, and hustle. I drafted him because he a great basketball player, and his if his one weakness is that his offense sucks (which it doesn't in the low post as a cutter/roller/post-up option), then so be it. Add the fact that 60's players (including Lucas being taken one spot before) were in short supply, I don't see why getting Nate Thurmond in the 3rd round was in enough to make me a bottom-feeding team in this league from where you're sitting.

Also, this whole playing-out-of-position thing is something I don't put stock in too much. Obviously, getting 5 GOAT centers together would suck, but on my team, I don't see skyscraping being a problem. I'd rather be too big than too small. I think that Nate Thurmond is a great basketball player and his offense is on par with Russell's. His defense is still top-10 all time for a big, and his intangibles may not be there, but I have Kareem to offset this.

Going from C to PF or PF to C for a strong, athletic big is not a big deal. I feel like Nate Thurmond fits with this team very well. His 14-foot jumpshot may have sucked, but he's had no problem relinquishing it, and he's had no problem passing it to better options. In fact, for a big, he was good at it.

I usually wouldn't put so much stock into a fellow competitor's favorite team list, but you being who you are, I can't help but feel like I did something wrong to end up in the same category as two guys with 120 ppg 4-man teams and bad defense.