Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota

[Kanyewest]

Turns out we couldn't have got Harden or Evans, but we now know Curry's a star in the making as is Jennings. Flynn will be solid for years to come. Could have had Lawson, Darren Collison, or Blair with the 18th.

Sev foretold of this being the worst season in franchise history. It's worse than the 19-63 season.

Curry is a nice piece but he still appears to be an undersized shooting guard; although he would have been a good fit for Eddie Jordan, where he could play the point and shooting guards also handle ball handling responsibilities. BTW, I wonder what kind of numbers Foye would put up in Don Nelson's system. I wonder if it helped Lawson and Collison that they were behind GREAT point guards to teach them how to play the game.

Flynn is alright so far. I would say so far he's been a bit of a dissappointment compared to guys like Curry and Jennings.. I kind of was buying into the hype of Brandon Jennings before the draft especially since he was trash talking about Rubio. You have to like someone with that much confidence. And he wasn't bad mouthing other guys like Flynn or Curry when he was working out with them.

I didn't think Jennings would be this good right now but I thought he was getting underrated before the draft. Someone like Flynn had a lot more exposure because of that 6 OT game against UConn. I guess at the time, I had faith that EG would make the tough decision if Jenning was really that talented, but all that European scouting to seems to go to big guys who can shoot 3s but have no real skill in the NBA.

I don't think Foye has let the Wizards down though. He really picked up his level of play in January once he was given consistent minutes. I'm willing to wait and see on Foye given that Saunders has done a good job in developing point guards like Marbury, Billups, Hudson, and Cassell. Give it 1 more year before this trade is described as a failure.

The biggest reason for the Wizards collapse is Gilbert Arenas, even before the gun incident he wasn't closing out games. Caron Butler also regressed under Flip Saunders.

EG really failed by taking someone at all with 2nd round draft pick. He could have had Blair or at least take a chance on SOMEONE. Grunfeld has done pretty well for himself in the 2nd round in finding value (Blatche and McGuire). The Wizards really need to improve upon their scouting if they couldn't see a viable role player in the 2nd round.

[Ruzious]

Nice post, Kanye. I think it is reasonable to call the trade a bad one, but it might not turn out as bad as most of us thought.

[Dat2U]

Sorry, but I'm not convinced Curry is any better than Foye. We're talking about 2 guys who should be nice 3rd guards. Curry's stats might look bright and shiney on a lousy run and gun GS team, but the meaningful stats are pretty much the same as Foye's. Their PERs are basically the same, and before you say but, Foye's was also about the same when he was a rookie - while playing out of position. And looking at their measurement, Curry doesn't stack up to Foye physically. Even though Foye measured in at 27 lbs heavier, he did much better than Curry in the lane quickness drill and a little better in the 3/4 court sprint. Foye's wingspan and verticle jump were both nearly 3 inches longer. If you want to talk little guards, Washington would have been better off with Jennings or Flynn - or even Lawson - picked with the pick EG should have been able to get in the Minny trade.

A couple of points:

1. Foye is 26 and a FA. Curry is 22 and signed to a rookie deal for 3 more years. I could end there but I won't.

2. If you watched Foye at Villanova and watch him now, you know he's a different player. Injuries have robbed him of some of his athleticism. And going off a 4 yr old lane agility score makes no sense. Foye can't stay in front of anyone nowadays. And the next time he uses his vertical & length to finish over a big in the paint, will be the first time this year.

2. Foye has obviously struggled adapting to playing PG at this level. Watching Curry play the position, Curry looks far more comfortable (and has 4 yrs less experience) and displays far superior court vision. Also the Warriors annoucers have said on more than one occassion, he's already their best perimeter defender (yes, I know that isn't saying alot).

3. Curry is not a little guard. He's a 6-3 point guard. What size are PGs supposed to be?

4. Look at Curry's numbers as of late:

Curry's development as the season has transpired...

Nov: 9.8ppg, 5.3apg, 3.2 rpg 42%fg, 38.5% 3pt fg
Dec: 13.5ppg, 3.7apg, 4.4rpg, 45% fg, 40% 3pt fg
Jan: 19.1ppg, 5.1apg, 4.4rpg, 48% fg, 49% 3pt fg
Feb: 21ppg, 6.6apg, 3.0 rpg, 44% fg, 43% 3pt fg.

I don't know how you can honestly say the two are comparable. After a slow beginning Curry's play has taken off over the past 6 weeks. Foye is what he is and isn't getting any better. And yes, Curry's play IMO the past six weeks exceeds anything Foye has done his entire career.

[DCZards]

The biggest reason for the Wizards collapse is Gilbert Arenas, even before the gun incident he wasn't closing out games.

That, my friends, is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. We can second-guess the Foye/Miller trade all we want but, as many of us noted at the time of the trade, the Wizards, rightfully or wrongfully, were looking to win now rather than draft a youngun' that had to be developed.

So they traded the fifth pick for two solid vets, giving the Zards what appeared to be its deepest team in many, many years. A team that many NBA experts had pegged as the fourh or fifth best team in the East.

The wheels feel off with the gun incident, which prevented us from ever seeing what this team would look like with GA, who was starting to get his mojo back, and a healthy Miller, Jamison and Foye.

[DCZards]

And yes, Curry's play IMO the past six weeks exceeds anything Foye has done his entire career.

I beg to differ. Check out some of Foye's numbers during stretches with Minny and they are not unlike those that Curry has put up recently. Although I'll be the first to admit that Curry is performing better than I thought he would at this early stage of his career.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I proposed alternatives to re-signing Gil and Antawn, before Grunfeld committed $167M and 5 or 6 years overall to both guys.

Gil was just rounding back into shape just as the gun incident went down, but had already missed 2 years worth of games while enjoying his raise.

Honestly, I would love to see transcripts of Ernie's actions the day he turned Gil in. That's when the mojo left IMO, DCZards. He couldn't have done a better job as an informant.

[Kanyewest]

And yes, Curry's play IMO the past six weeks exceeds anything Foye has done his entire career.

I don't know about that. In terms of efficiency maybe. However, the big problem with his numbers is that his team isn't winning. Even in his most impressive month so far in his career, Stephen Curry's Golden State Warriors are 1-4.

Randy Foye had a pretty good month last January where he scored 19 ppg , 4.5 apg, and shot 40% from 3. More importantly though, his team had won 10 of it's last 12 games at one point in January.

Foye has shown he can be a good complimentary player. However, perhaps it was foolish to think that they could put Foye in the same position in Washington. The Wizards did not have a player that could command a consistent double team. And Foye would also have to primarily play the point guard positio, where he wasn't as effective in Minnesota.

I agree though with that Foye has lost a lot of athleticism since his days at Villanova. Still, would it be false to assume that it's gone forever? I think there's a chance that Foye can regain some of that explosiveness much like Gilbert did this past offseason.

[Ruzious]

Sorry, but I'm not convinced Curry is any better than Foye. We're talking about 2 guys who should be nice 3rd guards. Curry's stats might look bright and shiney on a lousy run and gun GS team, but the meaningful stats are pretty much the same as Foye's. Their PERs are basically the same, and before you say but, Foye's was also about the same when he was a rookie - while playing out of position. And looking at their measurement, Curry doesn't stack up to Foye physically. Even though Foye measured in at 27 lbs heavier, he did much better than Curry in the lane quickness drill and a little better in the 3/4 court sprint. Foye's wingspan and verticle jump were both nearly 3 inches longer. If you want to talk little guards, Washington would have been better off with Jennings or Flynn - or even Lawson - picked with the pick EG should have been able to get in the Minny trade.

A couple of points:

1. Foye is 26 and a FA. Curry is 22 and signed to a rookie deal for 3 more years. I could end there but I won't.

You probably should have ended before you started. I've never said I was in favor of that trade. What I said is that Curry wasn't a particularly good option and that as a player there's not much difference between him and Foye. When Curry's rookie deal is over, you wouldn't re-sign him, because he's just a good player - who should be a 3rd guard. So that 4 year age difference doesn't make much difference.

2. If you watched Foye at Villanova and watch him now, you know he's a different player. Injuries have robbed him of some of his athleticism. And going off a 4 yr old lane agility score makes no sense. Foye can't stay in front of anyone nowadays. And the next time he uses his vertical & length to finish over a big in the paint, will be the first time this year.

What injuries? What I've seen out of Foye is that he is a good athlete, and he actually is a pretty good finisher. He's just not a point guard. He is a better athlete than Curry. And as I've said many times, I think Foye is just a 3rd guard.

2. Foye has obviously struggled adapting to playing PG at this level. Watching Curry play the position, Curry looks far more comfortable (and has 4 yrs less experience) and displays far superior court vision. Also the Warriors annoucers have said on more than one occassion, he's already their best perimeter defender (yes, I know that isn't saying alot).

Again, Curry is a 3rd guard on a good team, and he's playing a hybrid position. He's not even leading his team in assists. And what does being the best perimeter defender on GS even mean? If you know it doesn't mean much, then... ?

3. Curry is not a little guard. He's a 6-3 point guard. What size are PGs supposed to be?

He's not a starting PG on a decent team, and I don't see any reason to believe he ever will be.

4. Look at Curry's numbers as of late:

Curry's development as the season has transpired...

Nov: 9.8ppg, 5.3apg, 3.2 rpg 42%fg, 38.5% 3pt fg
Dec: 13.5ppg, 3.7apg, 4.4rpg, 45% fg, 40% 3pt fg
Jan: 19.1ppg, 5.1apg, 4.4rpg, 48% fg, 49% 3pt fg
Feb: 21ppg, 6.6apg, 3.0 rpg, 44% fg, 43% 3pt fg.

I don't know how you can honestly say the two are comparable. After a slow beginning Curry's play has taken off over the past 6 weeks. Foye is what he is and isn't getting any better. And yes, Curry's play IMO the past six weeks exceeds anything Foye has done his entire career.

[/quote]
And those stats have led his team to what? GS is 3 or 4 games worse... than the Wizards. Again - not a starting guard on a decent team - just like Foye. I'll give you that he's a little better suited to play the 1 than Foye - while Foye is a little better suited to play the 2. The bottom line is that they both should be 3rd guards.

As I said a couple of times here, I'd take Jennings, Flynn, and Lawson over him.

That was a long couple of points.

[Ruzious]

I proposed alternatives to re-signing Gil and Antawn, before Grunfeld committed $167M and 5 or 6 years overall to both guys.

Gil was just rounding back into shape just as the gun incident went down, but had already missed 2 years worth of games while enjoying his raise.

Honestly, I would love to see transcripts of Ernie's actions the day he turned Gil in. That's when the mojo left IMO, DCZards. He couldn't have done a better job as an informant.

EG deserves a lot of criticism, but you're out of control with your negativity about him, imo. At some point, I expect you to accuse him of being the cause of the Iraq war.

[Dat2U]

Wow, honestly I feel like I'm leading the blind here.

And while we point out how bad Curry's team is doing, you guys wanna tell me how great were doing with Foye at the helm? Aw hell, I'll even cut you some slack. Just remind me how Foye lead Minnesota to all those wins & playoff appearances during his days there?

Oh, wait! We can't blame Foye for how bad his teammates are? Can we? No, that wouldn't be fair...

So why are you doing it to a rookie on a horrible team? You wanna blame him for the Warriors starting a front court of Anthony Tolliver at PF & Chris Hunter at C? Your basically dinging him and discounting his very impressive numbers for simply for being drafted by Warriors.

As for Foye's injuries, here ya go: (December 2007)

The Minnesota Timberwolves today announced that guard Randy Foye has suffered a stress reaction of his left patella (knee cap).

He's had to deal with a "balky knee" ever since. I don't see the lateral quickness or the lift. I'm not saying he's a bad athlete now but he's definitely lost a step or two. And he's gone from being a slasher to mainly a jump shooter.

And I love how you like to make fun of my "don't sign anyone" strategy. I wouldn't resign Curry in four years, huh? Haha. Well I can tell you I wouldn't sign Foye when he becomes in FA in four months!

Four years? That's a lifetime in basketball. Neither you or I can look that far ahead and predict the future. Nor do we know what the future Collective Bargaining Agreement b/w the owners & the players association will look like.

[closg00]

From ESPN article: "The trade value list: No. 40 to No. 1"

Group H. "Cost-Effective Building Blocks"
32. Stephen Curry
Even more sophisticated offensively than we hoped. Defensively ... ugh. But offensively? Wow. His January stats (15 games): 19-4-5, 48 percent FG, 48 percent 3FG, 89.2 percent FT. For the season, assuming he bumps his scoring to 17 PPG post-All-Star break and everything else stays the same, he'd finish with 16 PPG, 120-plus 3s and 42 percent shooting from 3. According to Vincent Masi of ESPN Stats & Information, no rookie came close to hitting those numbers except for Ben Gordon in 2004-05 (15.1 PPG, 134 3s, 40.5 percent). Elias reports that 21 players have done the 16-120-42 thing since 2000-01; only three were younger than 26 (Ray Allen, Leandro Barbosa and Gordon), and none were younger than 23.

Curry will be part of a Big-3 in the future.

[Kanyewest]

Wow, honestly I feel like I'm leading the blind here.

And while we point out how bad Curry's team is doing, you guys wanna tell me how great were doing with Foye at the helm? Aw hell, I'll even cut you some slack. Just remind me how Foye lead Minnesota to all those wins & playoff appearances during his days there?

You said Curry's play during the past 6 weeks has been more impressive than any point in Foye's career. Obviously we have to agree to disagree. Especially since Foye put up pretty good numbers last January while his team won 10 of his past 12 games. Granted Curry hasn't had a teammate like Al Jefferson like Foye but while Curry is putting up great numbers, his team is one of the worst in the league. Curry's play has been very impressive, but he will get more credit if his team starts winning some games like Evans and Jennings.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I proposed alternatives to re-signing Gil and Antawn, before Grunfeld committed $167M and 5 or 6 years overall to both guys.

Gil was just rounding back into shape just as the gun incident went down, but had already missed 2 years worth of games while enjoying his raise.

Honestly, I would love to see transcripts of Ernie's actions the day he turned Gil in. That's when the mojo left IMO, DCZards. He couldn't have done a better job as an informant.

EG deserves a lot of criticism, but you're out of control with your negativity about him, imo. At some point, I expect you to accuse him of being the cause of the Iraq war.

I'm not saying EG was the one advising Bush on WMDs, but Ernie came to Washington in 2003. That's when the war broke out ...

[Hoopalotta]

Double post

[Hoopalotta]

EG deserves a lot of criticism, but you're out of control with your negativity about him, imo. At some point, I expect you to accuse him of being the cause of the Iraq war.

I'm not saying EG was the one advising Bush on WMDs, but Ernie came to Washington in 2003. That's when the war broke out ...

[Ruzious]

I proposed alternatives to re-signing Gil and Antawn, before Grunfeld committed $167M and 5 or 6 years overall to both guys.

Gil was just rounding back into shape just as the gun incident went down, but had already missed 2 years worth of games while enjoying his raise.

Honestly, I would love to see transcripts of Ernie's actions the day he turned Gil in. That's when the mojo left IMO, DCZards. He couldn't have done a better job as an informant.

EG deserves a lot of criticism, but you're out of control with your negativity about him, imo. At some point, I expect you to accuse him of being the cause of the Iraq war.

I'm not saying EG was the one advising Bush on WMDs, but Ernie came to Washington in 2003. That's when the war broke out ...

It's a good thing you put that smilie there.

Dat, we just disagree on Curry's potential. I have zero sleepless nights regretting not drafting him. And scouting and playing GM does require "predicting the future".

[Hoopalotta]

I have the same feeling about Curry as Ruz. I mean, I wish we grabbed one of the point guards* and I'd feel better if we had Curry now, but it's not an absolute game-changer or anything. He's had a great year and good for him, but I still wonder where his ceiling is.

That's irrespective of the trade, and I'm not saying by any means that this makes the trade anything but a bad move for all the reasons mentioned, but I still feel that McGee could potentially be a better player than everyone drafted from 5th on down in 2009. So, I feel exactly the same way as far as "no sleepless nights".

Now, had Tyreke been on the board at 5.....

* except for Rubio. Simmons might miss on a lot of stuff, but that recent bit where he speculated how Rubio might never make as much money in the NBA under the new CBA as he will in Spain is freakin' TERRIFYING if you're sittin' on his rights.

[Ruzious]

Now, had Tyreke been on the board at 5.....

Oh yeah, my keyboard would have a dark red substance on it.

* except for Rubio. Simmons might miss on a lot of stuff, but that recent bit where he speculated how Rubio might never make as much money in the NBA under the new CBA as he will in Spain is freakin' TERRIFYING if you're sittin' on his rights.

He's not just a basketball player; he's a celebrity in Europe - they care as much about his hairstyle as they do about his jump shot.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Did a quick and dirty hunt for players who had rookie years similar to Stephen Curry's aggregate performance to date.

First cut: 6-4 or shorter (Curry is 6-3), 32+ minutes per game (Curry: 34.7), a PER between 13.5 and 15.5 (Curry: 14.1), and an assist percentage of 18.0 or better (Curry: 20.0). Here's the list sorted by PER:

1. Brandon Jennings
2. Russell Westbrook
3. Jason Kidd
4. Mike Bibby
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Stephen Curry
7. Nick Van Exel

Jury still out on Jennings, Westbrook and Curry, but Kidd, Bibby, Thomas and Van Exel were all good pros.

Second cut -- I switched out the assist measure and looked for players with an offensive rating (the most comprehensive individual offensive efficiency measure) of 105 or lower (Curry is at 104). The list:

1. Jennings
2. Westbrook
3. Kidd
4. Bibby
5. Darrell Griffith
6. Isiah
7. OJ Mayo
8. Curry

Third cut -- looked for the same setup of players, but this time looking for guys who had assist assist rates below 21.5 (Curry is at 20.) This list isn't as promising:

1. Eric Gordon
2. Darrell Griffith
3. Hersey Hawkins
4. Mayo
5. Curry

Lowering the mpg bar to 30 adds Ron Brewer, a late 70s and 80s journeyman who played for Portland, San Antonio (2x), Cleveland (2x), Golden State, New Jersey and Chicago.

[MF23]

You could argue Curry is gunning because his teammates aren't reliable. Curry is who I wanted and would have picked aside from B. Griffin. That said Foye is the better athlete and stronger player.

As I have said, the thing that Curry has is a quick release that will open up a lot of opportunities for him as a scorer and playmaker. Curry and Foye will both be better in the future. Curry will be because he improves every year and Foye because he's a better player than he has shown. Both would be better with a post presence.