Rose Stat Tracker S2 - 20.8 PPG, 6.0 APG, 3.7 RPG

[HomoSapien]

I don't think Rose can play SG full-time. Rose may only be an inch shorter than Wade, but I'd assume that Wade has a significantly larger wing span.

[anorexorcism]

Rose isn't the PG on a laaaarge amount of possessions, which is just not how other star PGs are used.

This is because we have an organization committed to their golden boy, Kirk Hinrich, and it follows that every single freaking possession both Hinrich and Rose are playing together, when Rose (or anyone) gets the ball to Hinrich, the offense resets and Kirk becomes the point guard again. This is also why the Bulls probably lead the league in 24 second violations because Kirk passes the ball off to someone with one second left and they either throw up a poor shot, stunned at what's going on, or can't get a shot off in time.

WHY.

I cannot stress how imperative it is that Kirk Hinrich be removed from this team if we want to improve the offense and Rose's point guard development.

[BrooklynBulls]

I've begun to agree with you, anorexorcism. I was heartened by his largely off-the-ball play last year, but that was mostly due to Gordon, Rose, Salmons being present. I thought he'd carry it over to this year, giving Rose the lone responsibility.

But frankly, it's not just Hinrich monopolizing the ball, it's the SCHEME we run, this dual wing pick and roll scheme that is complete bollocks. Salmons had so much trouble with it because our big men aren't worthy of being defended on the perimeter, so when Salmons drove, he'd be fighting off the guard from the side and the big from up front, ending up in him trying ridiculous reverses that could barely draw iron. That, and his jumpshot left him for a little while there.

Put simply, we've got to get spacing in the offense, and after that, we've got to have a single primary ballhandler in Rose when he's in there, so that A- he can develop, and B- he can pick and choose the spots he'd like with which to score. I think the scheme is mostly a result of VDN trying not to "burden" Rose. But I just don't believe Rose needs any coddling. He's ready.

[cool007]

Rose isn't the PG on a laaaarge amount of possessions, which is just not how other star PGs are used.

This is because we have an organization committed to their golden boy, Kirk Hinrich, and it follows that every single freaking possession both Hinrich and Rose are playing together, when Rose (or anyone) gets the ball to Hinrich, the offense resets and Kirk becomes the point guard again. This is also why the Bulls probably lead the league in 24 second violations because Kirk passes the ball off to someone with one second left and they either throw up a poor shot, stunned at what's going on, or can't get a shot off in time.

WHY.

I cannot stress how imperative it is that Kirk Hinrich be removed from this team if we want to improve the offense and Rose's point guard development.

I totally agree with you. I think lately Rose's assist numbers are even further going down coz last 10 games or so, I have noticed that Kirk has been playing almost as many minutes if not more at PG than Rose. Hinrich gets the ball and you can see the offense resets and then Hinrich becomes the play maker.

I just hate our equal opportunity offense - where you don't have many offensive players. It would work for Lakers coz they have lot of options, it would work for Denver and a lot of other teams like Orlando as well (since they have scorers/shooters). For Bulls' team, it DOES NOT work and IT WILL NOT work. But we still do it anyways.

I watch Celtics games and see how Allen comes off screens, gets open and shoot. I see Hinrich come off screens - catch the ball, dribble the ball to the top of the key and then reset the offense. either him taking a poor shot or dribble the air out of the ball or pass it to someone with clock running out.

I don't hate Hinrich but on our team, I don't think he is anywhere close to being an ideal next to Rose.

[cool007]

I've begun to agree with you, anorexorcism. I was heartened by his largely off-the-ball play last year, but that was mostly due to Gordon, Rose, Salmons being present. I thought he'd carry it over to this year, giving Rose the lone responsibility.

But frankly, it's not just Hinrich monopolizing the ball, it's the SCHEME we run, this dual wing pick and roll scheme that is complete bollocks. Salmons had so much trouble with it because our big men aren't worthy of being defended on the perimeter, so when Salmons drove, he'd be fighting off the guard from the side and the big from up front, ending up in him trying ridiculous reverses that could barely draw iron. That, and his jumpshot left him for a little while there.

Put simply, we've got to get spacing in the offense, and after that, we've got to have a single primary ballhandler in Rose when he's in there, so that A- he can develop, and B- he can pick and choose the spots he'd like with which to score. I think the scheme is mostly a result of VDN trying not to "burden" Rose. But I just don't believe Rose needs any coddling. He's ready.

That's a great point.

Another thing I hate in Vinny's offense is how come our bigs NEVER Roll to the hoop??? You see Miller/Gibson/Noah setting the pick and here is how it usually goes.

Miller - either goes to the 3pt line or near it and then fake and run to the hoop - Don't mind it at times. Or pass it to someone else even if he is open and he doesn't look to shoot.

Gibson - He never rolls to the bucket. He also stays around the free throw line and what boggles my mind is that 9 out of 10 times he is not in a position to shoot but just passes the ball around while defense resets.

Noah - pretty much same as Gibson.

This is why 8 out of 10 times that pick and roll is just not a beneficial to us but we run it so many times anyways.

You could see how effective it is when Miller is making his outside shots/especially 3pt shots.

[DanTown8587]

Three big reasons for Rose's low assist totals have all been hit on

1. Kirk handles the ball alot for the off-guard next to Rose.
When you look at the assist totals for Rose and Kirk that is pretty decent for a backcourt. Nash gets 11 assists, only Grant Hill is a regular starter that averages over 2 a game. Williams gets 10 a game, only Boozer, Kirilinko and Brewer get over 2.5 a game and that offense allows for others to get some assists off of ball cuts, etc. Chris Paul gets 11 a game, only West can get over 2.0 that isn't a PG. Rose and Hinrich combine for somewhere around 11 assists a game as a duo.

2.Lack of an easy assist guy.
I don't have to go that deep here. Every top five assist guy has a player that they just give the ball to and they score and with the way the assist rule sets up, that counts. Derrick has nothing that equates to that.

3. No catch and shoot guys. You would think with Hinrich, Deng, Miller, Gibson that you would have numerous opportunities for catch and shoots, but no. Deng of the four shoots that the most, but Kirk loves to dribble to shoot, Miller prefers the shot fake and go to the rim and Gibson has been shooting the mid range jumper less with Miller on the floor.

[DJhitek]

Derrick Rose is a guard without "3 point range." Meaning, well, accurate range. There are a lot of those guards in this league. Russell Westbrook, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, TJ Ford, Ramon Sessions, Dwyane Wade, Rodney Stuckey, Andre Miller, Dahntay Jones, Monta Ellis, Tyreke Evans. You know an interesting fact about those guys?

Not one has a efg% on jump-shots that even comes close to Rose's 45.6%.

I don't think there's a better one of these mid-range guards than Rose. If you see one I left out, let me know.

I think it bodes quite well for the development of his 3-point shot. A shooter that talented from midrange will be able to translate sooner or later.

So? Steve Nash for one has 3pt range and is still a ton better from mid-range too.

Monta Ellis takes 3 3pt FGA per game, Rose takes one 3pter ever 2 games. eFG% is nice but it is a measure for efficiency not a measure for how good someone's midrange game is and most of the players you listed take a lot more 3s than Rose even if they aren't great 3pt shooters.

Steve Nash is at 55% on efg% btw.

You use essentially the greatest shooter of all-time as a comparison?

[Red Larrivee]

I've begun to agree with you, anorexorcism. I was heartened by his largely off-the-ball play last year, but that was mostly due to Gordon, Rose, Salmons being present. I thought he'd carry it over to this year, giving Rose the lone responsibility.

But frankly, it's not just Hinrich monopolizing the ball, it's the SCHEME we run, this dual wing pick and roll scheme that is complete bollocks. Salmons had so much trouble with it because our big men aren't worthy of being defended on the perimeter, so when Salmons drove, he'd be fighting off the guard from the side and the big from up front, ending up in him trying ridiculous reverses that could barely draw iron. That, and his jumpshot left him for a little while there.

Put simply, we've got to get spacing in the offense, and after that, we've got to have a single primary ballhandler in Rose when he's in there, so that A- he can develop, and B- he can pick and choose the spots he'd like with which to score. I think the scheme is mostly a result of VDN trying not to "burden" Rose. But I just don't believe Rose needs any coddling. He's ready.

This should probably be its own thread.

Last 15: Rose averages 4.9ast (35.9min), Kirk averages 4.1 (35.2min).
Last 33: Rose averages 5.7ast (36.9min), Kirk averages 4.8 (35.4min).

If there's a difference of .9ast between your all-star playmaking PG and a regressed point guard you're trying to peg in at the 2, something's wrong with your system.

Losing Gordon, who was the closest thing to an easy assist player, Kirk dominating the ball nearly as much as Rose and the system overall is killing Rose's assist numbers. I don't think he'll ever be a 20/10 yearly, but Rose should still be getting 7-8 a game on average.

[cool007]

I've begun to agree with you, anorexorcism. I was heartened by his largely off-the-ball play last year, but that was mostly due to Gordon, Rose, Salmons being present. I thought he'd carry it over to this year, giving Rose the lone responsibility.

But frankly, it's not just Hinrich monopolizing the ball, it's the SCHEME we run, this dual wing pick and roll scheme that is complete bollocks. Salmons had so much trouble with it because our big men aren't worthy of being defended on the perimeter, so when Salmons drove, he'd be fighting off the guard from the side and the big from up front, ending up in him trying ridiculous reverses that could barely draw iron. That, and his jumpshot left him for a little while there.

Put simply, we've got to get spacing in the offense, and after that, we've got to have a single primary ballhandler in Rose when he's in there, so that A- he can develop, and B- he can pick and choose the spots he'd like with which to score. I think the scheme is mostly a result of VDN trying not to "burden" Rose. But I just don't believe Rose needs any coddling. He's ready.

This should probably be its own thread.

Last 15: Rose averages 4.9ast (35.9min), Kirk averages 4.1 (35.2min).
Last 33: Rose averages 5.7ast (36.9min), Kirk averages 4.8 (35.4min).

If there's a difference of .9ast between your all-star playmaking PG and a regressed point guard you're trying to peg in at the 2, something's wrong with your system.

Losing Gordon, who was the closest thing to an easy assist player, Kirk dominating the ball nearly as much as Rose and the system overall is killing Rose's assist numbers. I don't think he'll ever be a 20/10 yearly, but Rose should still be getting 7-8 a game on average.

Great point. I had somebody on the other board post some type of stats that showed that Hinrich is not that far behind on handling the ball on offense (usage %) than Rose.

No wonder Rose's assists are dropping even further with Hinrich more and more sliding into PG than SG.

[SephCast]

Updated charts and stats.

Current Stats:
20.6 PPG, 5.8 APG, 3.7 RPG

In the Last 5 Games:
26.0 PPG, 6.2 APG, 1.8 RPG

[Shill]

Rose last 39 games:

23.2 ppg (50.7 FG%)
6.0 apg
4.0 rpg
4.6 FTA
54.5 TS%
21.1 PER

[alucryts]

since all star game

After 12:

PER: 23.592
TS%: 58.6%

ppg: 25.0
apg: 6.00
rpg: 3.67

fta: 4.92
ft%: 79.66%

fga: 19.17
fg%: 54.78%

[Shill]

since all star game

After 12:

PER: 24.33
TS%: 58.6%

ppg: 25.0
apg: 6.00
rpg: 3.67

fta: 4.92
ft%: 79.66%

fga: 19.17
fg%: 54.78%

I have his post-ASG PER at 23.59 for some reason.

[alucryts]

since all star game

After 12:

PER: 24.33
TS%: 58.6%

ppg: 25.0
apg: 6.00
rpg: 3.67

fta: 4.92
ft%: 79.66%

fga: 19.17
fg%: 54.78%

I have his post-ASG PER at 23.59 for some reason.

i added the wrong minutes ur right

[Shill]

Rose last 40 games:

22.7 ppg (50.5 FG%)
5.9 apg
3.9 rpg
4.5 FTA
54.4 TS%
20.9 PER

[TheWhitePanther]

I missed tonight's game...why did Rose only play 12 minutes?

[NoSkyy]

I missed tonight's game...why did Rose only play 12 minutes?

Dwight Howard owned his life. Again.

[alucryts]

im formally excluding tonights game from post all star game numbers.

[cowraiser]

How's Rose's new statline?

[alucryts]

since all star game

After 13:

PER: 23.795
TS%: 59.29%

ppg: 24.85
apg: 5.92
rpg: 3.69

fta: 4.62
ft%: 80.00%

fga: 18.92
fg%: 54.88%

i apologize if any of these are wrong im having a terrible night and am really down/not up to checking all the stats please correct me if i made a mistake