Bruce Arthur: Glass half full analysis of Andrea

[Lionel Messi]

I don't know if Bargnani can be a legit #1 option, but here are the positives I see for him without having Bosh as a # 1 option:

- More ball movement (keeping teammates alive & interested on offense)
- Bargnani is a more capable passer than Bosh, if plays are run through him more often, we may see a little more of his passing skill on a game to game basis. That pass from the 3 point line to the low post (to Amir) was a thing of beauty the other day.

I don't mind the thought of Bargnani becoming more of a focal point on offense, but they do need a rugged PF or C to play with him & eventually a 20ppg swingman. If the team can focus on these things & eventually attain it, things will be looking up.

I would like to see Bargnani move away from the 3 point shot all together. Use it as a complete last resort option. He is money within 10 feet from the basket. He is as good as Bosh at finishing at close range (he's actually better than Bosh at completing layups).

You pair Bargnani with a rugged C & a legit 20ppg scoring swingman, I'll be saying "Bosh who?" as we roll into the playoffs as the 3rd or 4th seed.

1) If you pair Bosh with a rugged C and a legit 20ppg swingman then we're saying, "Atlanta who?" and "Celtics who?" and we're a contending team.
People are asking for the same supporting cast around Bargnani now that we've wanted for as long as Bargs has been here. I don't get why people think so highly of Bargs + rugged C + 20ppg swingman and then talk as if Bosh should be able to carry this team into a top 4/5 seed (wasn't that far off really) without anything remotely close to either of those two. Maybe just a 20ppg swingman would have done the job with Bosh.

2) Really? Because Bosh finishes a lot of layups under a lot of contact is amazing at finishing with his right hand.
Bargnani has great touch and I'm always really impressed when he catches the ball on the run and finishes on the break, but I still think Bosh is better at completing "layups". Isn't Bosh one of the best finishers in traffic in the league?

[Lionel Messi]

I've noticed he plays worse when Bosh isn't in the lineup.

that's because Bosh gets doubled-triple teamed and Bargs is either wide open at the perimeter or just has enough space to dibble-drive to the basket

during the past seasons i never saw CB4 pass the ball to Andrea when he is doubled. Normally he prefer to jack up a shot o try to draw a foul. Usually when the ball came to Chris the others have just to wach.

I'm all for try a ball movment oriented system next year, its true that the Pistons game isn't rapresentative but it was so fun and fluid to watch.
.

Bosh may not always pass directly to Bargs but there's no question that Bosh would kick it out and swing to Bargs or that when Bosh would be involved in a P&R the ballhandler would use the added attention Bosh got to swing the ball to the open man.

[ropjhk]

If the Raptors play teams like the Pistons every night, then everyone will look like a superstar with or without Bosh.

[Reignman]

And people think that Bargnani won't be a number 1 option when Bosh leaves, Ok. The media is already preemptively shovelling this **** to us.

This isn't about Bargs offense, give him 20 shots and some nights he'll make them (Det) and some nights he'll bomb. The problem is that he's an absolute liability on the defensive end and rewarding someone like that by making him the #1 option seems like a recipe for failure IMO. And he himself has stated that he has laziness and focus issues and until he proves he can bring it night in and night out, there's no reason to put him in that role.

The idea is for this organization to wipe away this soft label and this kind of move would be counterintuitive.

[Kakapato]

Is it so difficult to understand that here we have a problem with the defensive system?!?!?

You can put Howard in this team and the defense will remain s**t!!!! You already tried it with JO.

The problem is the perimeter, not the paint; the opposite teams always can force defensive switches easily... it's difficult for our bigs to defend the paint when they have to guard PGs and SGs...

[Jurking]

A few things from this thread

1. Please stop refering to Manu as a EURO. Last I check Argentian is no where near Europe.

3. Its fine to think the glass is half full. But its only fair of people acknoledge that thre is HUGE overwhelming historical evidence that the glass won't get any fuller or if it does that the water pouring into the glass will be so slow as to hardley be noticable.

1. Last I check, he played like forever here in Bologna. Italy is no where near Argentina. Basketball-wise, he was born in EUROpe.

3. Look at the Bucks. And I mean the Bucks... They were nobody last year, and look at them now... Don't you think next year an actual coach would/could actually benefit the team?

[pspot]

there was a sequence in the bulls game where turk and jack were coming up the court and passing it back and forth. Bargnani was waiting around the three point line kind of thinking of setting a screen but more so with his hands up and looking at the Turk (who had the ball at the time) and asking to know what they were running. It seemed like he literaly didn't know what to do unless a play was run.

Its a knock against him but at the same time not, if he's a system player, if he needs plays run then thats the type of player he is and you have to recognize that if you want to ask more of him.

The Det his shot was going in, it was that way for the whole team, jump shooting teams look great when their shots are falling and awful when they aren't. Kind of why i don't think Cle wants to play

[Crazy-Canuck]

That confusion has plagued this team since the beginning of the year. It isnt just Bargs, but every player on this team seems confused defensively and offensively. We either have the dumbest basketball players in the NBA or our guys arent practicing or coached properly.

[Lionel Messi]

Is it so difficult to understand that here we have a problem with the defensive system?!?!?

You can put Howard in this team and the defense will remain s**t!!!! You already tried it with JO.

The problem is the perimeter, not the paint; the opposite teams always can force defensive switches easily... it's difficult for our bigs to defend the paint when they have to guard PGs and SGs...

Actually, Dwight masks a lot of mistakes with his presence.
Nelson, Carter and Lewis aren't all-world defenders.

We wouldn't be a top 5 defensive team with Dwight, but we'd be top 12-14 IMO.

Either way, it's a well-established fact that this team's perimeter defence has been absolute crap for years and that our interior D hasn't been able to mask the immense amounts of errors our perimeter defenders make.

[Undefeated]

Why are we all so concerned about Bargnani's ability to be a number one option? We are a top offensive team in the league, and one of the worst defensive/rebounding teams in the league. Even IF Andrea can permanently step up and score 22ppg or so for the rest of his prime, does that make us any better? He won't be playing many more minutes than he is now and with an increased offensive load, who knows? Maybe he will put up worse RB%'s than he does currently?

You take Bosh and Bargnani out, would the Raptors still be a top offensive team in the league? I wouldn't think so. The reason people are concern with Bargnani becoming the number one option is because he's the only Raptors that can make the offense potent whether that's scoring or passing which he does really well and offense is the only factor that would likely carry the Raptors. Rebounding and defense are a concern, but you filled that need with other players.

[Too Late Crew]

3. Look at the Bucks. And I mean the Bucks... They were nobody last year, and look at them now... Don't you think next year an actual coach would/could actually benefit the team?

The Bucks were nobody last year. Yet they had the same dam coach last year they had this year.

However last year they had their top rebounding shot blocking inside center Bogut for only 33 games. Theire 4 top minute players were

Jefferson
Sessions
Luc Mbah a Moute
CV

3 of those 4 guys are GONE

But yeah its all their coach.

Would a different coach make ANY differnce? Possible. But changes like your example of the bucks (11 games) are clearly not caused by the coach. If we go by your own example we should keep Jay and swap out 3 of our 4 top players this offseason and make sure we have one of the best rebounding shotblocking bigmen in the NBA in the middle next year?

[strangespot]

there was a sequence in the bulls game where turk and jack were coming up the court and passing it back and forth. Bargnani was waiting around the three point line kind of thinking of setting a screen but more so with his hands up and looking at the Turk (who had the ball at the time) and asking to know what they were running. It seemed like he literaly didn't know what to do unless a play was run.

Its a knock against him but at the same time not, if he's a system player, if he needs plays run then thats the type of player he is and you have to recognize that if you want to ask more of him.

The Det his shot was going in, it was that way for the whole team, jump shooting teams look great when their shots are falling and awful when they aren't. Kind of why i don't think Cle wants to play

"I have learned from Ettore Messina, always did exactly what he told me, like a machine. I was not the type of player telling my teammates to pass me the ball, because everything had a system and I got the ball when I had to. If I do not a have a coach with strong presence behind me I sometimes get lost. Thats something I surely need to work on"

thats in summary what Andrea said after being asked about his problems with coach Recalcati (former Italian NT coach).

[dagger]

That confusion has plagued this team since the beginning of the year. It isnt just Bargs, but every player on this team seems confused defensively and offensively. We either have the dumbest basketball players in the NBA or our guys arent practicing or coached properly.

You see, that's another thing. We have so many misconnects. A few games back, Jack and Bosh had consecutive turnovers on missed passes because of mis-communication, and I'm thinking, what have they been practising for 200 days? What are their practices like - Are they not demanding enough?

[gangstaff]

So when Bargs has another mediocre season next year and doesn't make this "leap forward" that Dagger has been anticipating for 4 years(!), can we say "I told you so". Of course not. He has potential!! Next year he'll show it, you'll see!!! The adenoids/coach/refs/Bosh/system/shats held him down again.

[elitehunter99]

Well if Bosh isn't around there is no need for AB to spread the court for Amir Johnson so I assume that his game would move in closer to the basket and become more deliberate.

The problem with what transpired during Bosh's seven game absence just after the all-star break is that everyone took it upon himself to take his shots. It's not like we had a structural change, where plays were run for Bargnani.

Like I've been saying for months, Bosh was the only player the team deferred to, and when you remove him from the equation, there is no hierarchy or structure. The offence becomes a democracy - anyone who feels like taking a shot can do so.

Last night's game had a different feel to it: More deliberate postups for Bargnani, more side pick and rolls for him, more center pick and roll for Amir. Great ball movement. Now if you build an offensive philosophy around that with Hedo providing facilitation and three point shooting, Weems and DeRozan provide mid-range shooting off of screens, and Jack and Calderon playing the shooter's role on the pick and roll, you might get an offensive structure that is hierarchical, effective, involves everyone, and we no longer suffer through the dreaded 10-seconds-of-silence-while-Chris-decides-whether-to-drive-or-shoot. It might even be more fun to watch.

I completely agree, but at the same time in the Chicago game we clearly tried to get Bargs going more and gave him tons of plays and Iso situations as well and we got blown out.

He scored well in the first half, but then disappeared in the 2nd half, and since he wasn't doing the "other" things necessary to win, he became useless.

When Bosh's game is off, he still rebounds, rotates, passes, hustles and even draws double teams.

As usual, why are people even overly concerned about the offense?!?!? Its the defense, THE DEFENSE!!!! which blows, and why a team like Chicago had one of its best offensive displays this season against the putrid Raptors D. IMO, even if Bosh stays, the D HAS to be addressed, either at SF, C or PG. Until that happens, even if Bargnani puts up 24 and 8, it won't mean much for this team in the wins and losses columns.

[Reignman]

Is it so difficult to understand that here we have a problem with the defensive system?!?!?

You can put Howard in this team and the defense will remain s**t!!!! You already tried it with JO.

The problem is the perimeter, not the paint; the opposite teams always can force defensive switches easily... it's difficult for our bigs to defend the paint when they have to guard PGs and SGs...

Jack
Weems
Hedo
Bosh
Dwight

That's a top 10 defensive team EASILY.

Both the perimeter and paint need better defenders but you've really undersold the role of an interior defensive presence like D12.

[jrsmith]

Alot of talk about a player improving his stats.

The team and its record will get worse, no one can logically argue that. The only way the glass is half full is if you are following the team simply for the reason of being a fan of andrea bargnani.

He will never be a first or second option on a contending team, and thats talking offensively. His game is extremely erratic and because of his style he offers no consistency.

His liabilities on defense are a completely other story.

[lucky777s]

Bargs needs to be broken of the 3pt habit. He's addicted to it. Somebody told him that was his special skill and he bought it.

But the truth is he is not that good a 3pt shooter. Even among big men guys like Okur, Dirk, and Frye all shoot it better. And they rebound at higher rates.

Bargs % for 2pt range this year has bee quite good - around 50% - and this is where he needs to focus his game going forward. He needs to get to the FT line consistently because it is the only way to be an efficient scorer. And his O rebound numbers will go up just from playing in the paint more and tipping his own misses.

His threes should only come in transition or on the occasional high pick and roll (one per game).

He does not have the personality to be a franchise player like Bosh evolved into this year. Bargs is almost detached from the moment.

[Reignman]

On top of all that, he'll have to face a double team, LOL.

[dagger]

On top of all that, he'll have to face a double team, LOL.

Except that unlike Bosh, he won't hold onto the ball for 10 seconds until he gets stripped. We may actually see something novel, like a repost. How many times do you see Chris reposted? You know why? Because once the ball goes into the post, it never leaves, double or not.