Bruce Arthur: Glass half full analysis of Andrea

[garbagnani]

Myth - 1 in 5 my ass, 3 in 5. Most times he'll look for our cutters, who rather seem to be jogging through the lane rather than cutting hard for a hoop and then they'll end up clearing out and he'll go 1v1. He isn't leading a team lacking any real wing scoring threat to being near the top in offensive efficiency without kicking it out.
Unless you're going to attribute our relatively great offensive efficiency all to Bargnani (Bargnani helps, of course...but without Bosh he doesn't help nearly as much).

Lionel we know you are a big Bosh fan but you are wrong here. Bosh never hits cutters. Bosh only swings the ball out when he is double or triple teamed. When he does swing it out it is after holding it for a few seconds, allowing the defense to reset and cover whatever man is open (left open due to bosh being double teamed). Bosh gets double teammed all the time and get no assists to show for it, not what you want from your superstar (defeates the whole benefit of being double teamed really)

[I.D.]

And people think that Bargnani won't be a number 1 option when Bosh leaves, Ok. The media is already preemptively shovelling this **** to us.

This isn't about Bargs offense, give him 20 shots and some nights he'll make them (Det) and some nights he'll bomb. The problem is that he's an absolute liability on the defensive end and rewarding someone like that by making him the #1 option seems like a recipe for failure IMO. And he himself has stated that he has laziness and focus issues and until he proves he can bring it night in and night out, there's no reason to put him in that role.

The idea is for this organization to wipe away this soft label and this kind of move would be counterintuitive.

It is Bosh that is the Liability on Defense. Bargs can cover his man, he just cant help (at all). If we pair bargs with a center that is good help defender that can rebound and blocks shots (10ppg is enough) bargs will not be a liability on defense, he will cover his man, and box out (things he does well).

This is truly getting out of hand. Wow!

I'm not even gonna argue basketball anymore in regards to this. But from a logic based school of argumentation I don't understand how 4 years of inconsistent to frustrating result from Bargnani holds any relevance in a debate about the merits of him as a player versus those of 5 all-star years from Chris Bosh. You don't have to like Bosh, or his game, but how can anyone logically, throw his actual results under the bus and at the same time refer to scattered isolated incidences in Bargnani's career as an actual method of argumentation? It's ambitious at best, martrydom for anyone trying to win a debate (or suicide take your pick) but it's also a bit insulting to your counterpart. I would think. I find these kinds of arguments insulting anyway. That's not the best route to take in this crusade.

Just to be clear, I am in no way entrenched in my stance against this whole "Bargnani era" and movement, my current opinion is what it is, but I do realise as a Raptors fan that I hope it can succeed and given a compelling argument I'll play on that hope. But none of these arguments approach that.

And by the by, how does Dagger get away with passively calling everyone who attacks his theories an idiot or moron? You wouldn't do that in a face to face conversation so show some class and avoid it when behind a computer monitor.

[Reignman]

And people think that Bargnani won't be a number 1 option when Bosh leaves, Ok. The media is already preemptively shovelling this **** to us.

This isn't about Bargs offense, give him 20 shots and some nights he'll make them (Det) and some nights he'll bomb. The problem is that he's an absolute liability on the defensive end and rewarding someone like that by making him the #1 option seems like a recipe for failure IMO. And he himself has stated that he has laziness and focus issues and until he proves he can bring it night in and night out, there's no reason to put him in that role.

The idea is for this organization to wipe away this soft label and this kind of move would be counterintuitive.

It is Bosh that is the Liability on Defense. Bargs can cover his man, he just cant help (at all). If we pair bargs with a center that is good help defender that can rebound and blocks shots (10ppg is enough) bargs will not be a liability on defense, he will cover his man, and box out (things he does well).

Please, don't ever compare Bosh and Bargs in anything related to basketball again. Thanks.

[Reignman]

Is it so difficult to understand that here we have a problem with the defensive system?!?!?

You can put Howard in this team and the defense will remain s**t!!!! You already tried it with JO.

The problem is the perimeter, not the paint; the opposite teams always can force defensive switches easily... it's difficult for our bigs to defend the paint when they have to guard PGs and SGs...

Jack
Weems
Hedo
Bargs
Dwight

That's a top 10 defensive team EASILY.

Both the perimeter and paint need better defenders but you've really undersold the role of an interior defensive presence like D12.

SO is that.

Bargs is not a starting big man in this league and please put me on ignore. I would appreciate it if you couldn't see my posts.

[Trianoball]

Wouldn't it have been better to focus on building around our legit franchise player 1st option for these past few years, rather than sucking, not acquiring high draft picks, and then losing our best player...just so we can see what Bargnani can do?

I hate the logic of Toronto fans.

[garbagnani]

It is Bosh that is the Liability on Defense. Bargs can cover his man, he just cant help (at all). If we pair bargs with a center that is good help defender that can rebound and blocks shots (10ppg is enough) bargs will not be a liability on defense, he will cover his man, and box out (things he does well).

This is truly getting out of hand. Wow!

I'm not even gonna argue basketball anymore in regards to this. But from a logic based school of argumentation I don't understand how 4 years of inconsistent to frustrating result from Bargnani holds any relevance in a debate about the merits of him as a player versus those of 5 all-star years from Chris Bosh. You don't have to like Bosh, or his game, but how can anyone logically, throw his actual results under the bus and at the same time refer to scattered isolated incidences in Bargnani's career as an actual method of argumentation? It's ambitious at best, martrydom for anyone trying to win a debate (or suicide take your pick) but it's also a bit insulting to your counterpart. I would think. I find these kinds of arguments insulting anyway. That's not the best route to take in this crusade.

Just to be clear, I am in no way entrenched in my stance against this whole "Bargnani era" and movement, my current opinion is what it is, but I do realise as a Raptors fan that I hope it can succeed and given a compelling argument I'll play on that hope. But none of these arguments approach that.

And by the by, how does Dagger get away with passively calling everyone who attacks his theories an idiot or moron? You wouldn't do that in a face to face conversation so show some class and avoid it when behind a computer monitor.

all that I said is that Bosh is a horrible defender. Bosh and Bargs are both horrible team defenders, Bargs is a better man defender than Bosh, thats all. I dont know how i possibly insulted you, or anyone.....

[garbagnani]

Please, don't ever compare Bosh and Bargs in anything related to basketball again. Thanks.

why?

are you really that ignorant?

you dont think bargs can compare to bosh in anything basketball related?

Bargs is a better shooter, better passer, better man defender. boo hoo....

I could make a similar list of things bosh does better than bargs and it would be a lot longer (he is better in many ways). Bosh is better than Bargs.

[Rhettmatic]

Please, don't ever compare Bosh and Bargs in anything related to basketball again. Thanks.

why?

are you really that ignorant?

you dont think bargs can compare to bosh in anything basketball related?

Bargs is a better shooter, better passer, better man defender. boo hoo....

I could make a similar list of things bosh does better than bargs and it would be a lot longer (he is better in many ways). Bosh is better than Bargs.

No personal attacks.

[garbagnani]

Bargs is not a starting big man in this league and please put me on ignore. I would appreciate it if you couldn't see my posts.

I laugh everytime i see them.

"Bargs is not a starting big man in this league" - you are blinded by hate and ignorance buddy. He may not be a star, but he is clearly a starter.

you are a total hater

[Reignman]

Please, don't ever compare Bosh and Bargs in anything related to basketball again. Thanks.

why?

are you really that ignorant?

you dont think bargs can compare to bosh in anything basketball related?

Bargs is a better shooter, better passer, better man defender. boo hoo....

I could make a similar list of things bosh does better than bargs and it would be a lot longer (he is better in many ways). Bosh is better than Bargs.

Bargnani is better at being a 7' shooting guard over Bosh. There, happy now?

[Lionel Messi]

Myth - 1 in 5 my ass, 3 in 5. Most times he'll look for our cutters, who rather seem to be jogging through the lane rather than cutting hard for a hoop and then they'll end up clearing out and he'll go 1v1. He isn't leading a team lacking any real wing scoring threat to being near the top in offensive efficiency without kicking it out.
Unless you're going to attribute our relatively great offensive efficiency all to Bargnani (Bargnani helps, of course...but without Bosh he doesn't help nearly as much).

Lionel we know you are a big Bosh fan but you are wrong here. Bosh never hits cutters. Bosh only swings the ball out when he is double or triple teamed. When he does swing it out it is after holding it for a few seconds, allowing the defense to reset and cover whatever man is open (left open due to bosh being double teamed). Bosh gets double teammed all the time and get no assists to show for it, not what you want from your superstar (defeates the whole benefit of being double teamed really)

He was averaging 3.5-4 assists per game in the 12 or so games before his first injury.

I rest my case.

[garbagnani]

why?

are you really that ignorant?

you dont think bargs can compare to bosh in anything basketball related?

Bargs is a better shooter, better passer, better man defender. boo hoo....

I could make a similar list of things bosh does better than bargs and it would be a lot longer (he is better in many ways). Bosh is better than Bargs.

No personal attacks.

I wasnt attacking him. REignman asking me not to compare bosh and bargs in anything basketball related. He is implying that Bargs isnt worthy of comparing to bosh in anyway, which is ridiculous and ignorant

[garbagnani]

He was averaging 3.5-4 assists per game in the 12 or so games before his first injury.

I rest my case.

you rest your case? how about the rest of the season? and last season?

bosh passed great those games ,and we won nearly all of them as a result. If bosh averaged 3.5-4 assists all season i would be applauding his passing.

[Lionel Messi]

Please, don't ever compare Bosh and Bargs in anything related to basketball again. Thanks.

why?

are you really that ignorant?

you dont think bargs can compare to bosh in anything basketball related?

Bargs is a better shooter, better passer, better man defender. boo hoo....

I could make a similar list of things bosh does better than bargs and it would be a lot longer (he is better in many ways). Bosh is better than Bargs.

Bosh is a better team defender. He rotates well and is always aware.

If I had to pick between them who I'd want to pair witha bruising defensive C on the defensive end, I'd pick Bosh.
Bargnani gets lost way too often.

Also, Bargnani is only a better 3pt shooter than Bosh.

[dagger]

Myth - 1 in 5 my ass, 3 in 5. Most times he'll look for our cutters, who rather seem to be jogging through the lane rather than cutting hard for a hoop and then they'll end up clearing out and he'll go 1v1. He isn't leading a team lacking any real wing scoring threat to being near the top in offensive efficiency without kicking it out.
Unless you're going to attribute our relatively great offensive efficiency all to Bargnani (Bargnani helps, of course...but without Bosh he doesn't help nearly as much).

Lionel we know you are a big Bosh fan but you are wrong here. Bosh never hits cutters. Bosh only swings the ball out when he is double or triple teamed. When he does swing it out it is after holding it for a few seconds, allowing the defense to reset and cover whatever man is open (left open due to bosh being double teamed). Bosh gets double teammed all the time and get no assists to show for it, not what you want from your superstar (defeates the whole benefit of being double teamed really)

He was averaging 3.5-4 assists per game in the 12 or so games before his first injury.

I rest my case.

If Andrea hits 20 points or more tonight, April will be his highest points per game month of the season. But frankly, I'm not going to rest my case on such a small sample.

Nor should you. Yours is a weak case.

[Lionel Messi]

He was averaging 3.5-4 assists per game in the 12 or so games before his first injury.

I rest my case.

you rest your case? how about the rest of the season? and last season?

bosh passed great those games ,and we won nearly all of them as a result. If bosh averaged 3.5-4 assists all season i would be applauding his passing.

If he can average that amount in 12 games then obviously he does pass out.

You said when he passes out it rarely leads to assists etc.
The fact is that the ball is swung out of a Bosh double team very often and that's what makes our offence so effective, as well as the ball swinging when Bosh sets a pick on a P&R.

[Lionel Messi]

If Andrea hits 20 points or more tonight, April will be his highest points per game month of the season. But frankly, I'm not going to rest my case on such a small sample.

Nor should you. Yours is a weak case.

Maybe because I'm tired of arguing with a stone wall. I promised myself I'd stop, and I can't believe how badly I've failed at stopping myself from arguing with Bargnani fanboys.

[Komodo]

Bargnani and DeRozan are the two main guys I'd look to keep going forward. Despite how much he's maligned, Bargnani still has a lot of upside and is on a manageable contract. He has a lot of tools, but the chances of him putting them all together isn't so great. Still, he's the type of player you'd look to keep while rebuilding, and you're not going to get full value for him in a trade. Weems is another, but hopefully both sides can come to a mutually-beneficial contract extension after next season.

[Lionel Messi]

Bargnani and DeRozan are the two main guys I'd look to keep going forward. Despite how much he's maligned, Bargnani still has a lot of upside and is on a manageable contract. He has a lot of tools, but the chances of him putting them all together isn't so great. Still, he's the type of player you'd look to keep while rebuilding, and you're not going to get full value for him in a trade. Weems is another, but hopefully both sides can come to a mutually-beneficial contract extension after next season.

+1

But I'd also look to keep Amir and even Jack.

[bane_dd]

Bargnani and DeRozan are the two main guys I'd look to keep going forward. Despite how much he's maligned, Bargnani still has a lot of upside and is on a manageable contract. He has a lot of tools, but the chances of him putting them all together isn't so great. Still, he's the type of player you'd look to keep while rebuilding, and you're not going to get full value for him in a trade. Weems is another, but hopefully both sides can come to a mutually-beneficial contract extension after next season.

+1

But I'd also look to keep Amir and even Jack.

Bargnani, Amir, DeRozan and Weems should be the core of this team going forward. Everyone else can go (assuming Bosh is gone which I think is a given now).