SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated)

[Fairview4Life]

F4L, maybe I'm confused, but if you switch (either you do it yourself or you do it because your teammate is an idiot) isn't that still your cover?

Maybe I'm missing something but if Bargs was switched onto Mo and Mo hits the 3, who else would you charge that against?

And if you think it should be charged against Jose, then that's a massive flaw in the entire "plan" because at the start of the year we were switching almost every play because Jose didn't know what to do with a screen. Actually, this happened throughout the season.

Switching is a part of the game (obviously not to the extent we use it) and that score was rightfully charged against Bargs IMO.

I think it should be charged to Bargs of course, it's the guy he was covering. I think I'd want it tracked as just another type of stat though. IE "switched to perimeter player on a pick" or something. They already track stuff like covering the roller on a PnR, for example. If we're trying to normalize these numbers across every player in the league, I'd figure we'd want to cut out defensive schemes like zones (which is also included in the stat everyone was up in arms about) and switches on picks. Those types of defensive plays would vary dramatically from team to team and also against specific opposition.

[Reignman]

F4L, maybe I'm confused, but if you switch (either you do it yourself or you do it because your teammate is an idiot) isn't that still your cover?

Maybe I'm missing something but if Bargs was switched onto Mo and Mo hits the 3, who else would you charge that against?

And if you think it should be charged against Jose, then that's a massive flaw in the entire "plan" because at the start of the year we were switching almost every play because Jose didn't know what to do with a screen. Actually, this happened throughout the season.

Switching is a part of the game (obviously not to the extent we use it) and that score was rightfully charged against Bargs IMO.

I think it should be charged to Bargs of course, it's the guy he was covering. I think I'd want it tracked as just another type of stat though. IE "switched to perimeter player on a pick" or something. They already track stuff like covering the roller on a PnR, for example. If we're trying to normalize these numbers across every player in the league, I'd figure we'd want to cut out defensive schemes like zones (which is also included in the stat everyone was up in arms about) and switches on picks. Those types of defensive plays would vary dramatically from team to team and also against specific opposition.

Ok, that makes sense and would definitely give a more accurate picture of what's happening on the floor.

[tmoney34]

Ok, since I see mcfurious and others trying to pimp another (Please Use More Appropriate Word) myth about Bargs lets address this now.....what leads you guys to believe Bargs is a "natural 4"?

His play and his stats suggest he's a natural SF on offense. On defense does Bargs even have a natural position? Seems like a 6th man / first big off the bench to me.

Anyway, like all the Bargnani myths that have been exposed, next year Synergysports should be a great tool to expose this myth that Bargs is a "natural 4".

The "5 year project" will finally be over next season and I'll be laughing when we discuss the final product. Considering he's going to play for his NT (no big man camp), I just want to say what a colossal waste of time in advance, thanks folks.

Who should we have drafted instead?

Man, some of you guys see things in only black and white. If BC felt Bargs was BPA or had the highest ceiling then he made the right pick from an asset perspective.

But since it was clear as day that Bargs wasn't the right fit, then BC should've traded Bargs (the asset) for a better fit a long time ago. If posters on this board figured out 2 or 3 years (some knew even before) ago that Bargs / Bosh don't work as a starting tandem, then moves should've made made to address that or Bargs should've been turned into a 6th man.

People have been saying drafting Bargnani was a mistake. But BRoy didn't wanna work out for us and neither did Tyrus Thomas and LMA plays the same position as Bosh. Not much left after that.

Speaking of black and white, it seems as though some posters assume that if you want to trade a player, you pick up the phone, call a GM and BAM! Everyone is happy with the deal. I'm sure there is much more to it than that. Because the same people that wants Bargs traded would be calling for BC's head if he got fleeced in the deal. And after Barg's rookie season, I'm pretty sure his stock dropped quite a bit so the return would have been poor.

Yes, there is the argument that BC is infatuated with Bargnani and that very well may be true but it also may be false. Because nobody here could provide irrefutable proof that suggests it's true, there is no point in using that as a point to prove anything.

[supersub15]

Here's a list of most centers (starting and backup) in the league). I might have missed some, but most are here:

Joel Przybilla - 0.75 (14)
Al Horford - 0.76 (18)
Andrew Bynum - 0.82 (39)
Nene Hilario - 0.82 (39)
Kendrick Perkins - 0.82 (40)
Dwight Howard - 0.82 (40)
Tim Duncan - 0.83 (51)
Mehmet Okur - 0.83 (51)
Joel Anthony - 0.83 (51)
Brendan Haywood - 0.83 (52)
Marcus Camby - 0.84 (61)
Robin Lopez - 0.84 (61)
Jermaine O'Neal - 0.84 (62)
Marcin Gortat - 0.85 (86)
Pau Gasol - 0.86 (100)
Nenad Krstic - 0.86 (100)
Brook Lopez - 0.86 (101)
Tyson Chandler - 0.86 (101)
Ben Wallace - 0.87 (120)
Andrew Bogut - 0.87 (121)
Samuel Dalembert - 0.87 (121)
Marc Gasol - 0.88 (133)
Greg Oden - 0.89 (160)
Channing Frye - 0.89 (160)
DeAndre Jordan - 0.89 (160)
Joakim Noah - 0.89 (162)
Chuck Hayes - 0.90 (183)
Serge Ibaka - 0.90 (183)
Andris Biedrins - 0.90 (183)
Anderson Varejao - 0.90 (184)
Chris Andersen - 0.91 (210)
Emeka Okafor - 0.91 (210)
Erick Dampier - 0.91 (210)
Nazr Mohammed - 0.91 (210)
Spencer Hawes - 0.92 (235)
Andrea Bargnani - 0.92 (236)
Al Jefferson - 0.93 (255)
Chris Kaman - 0.94 (277)
Roy Hibbert - 0.94 (278)
Hasheem Thabeet - 0.96 (308)
Anthony Tolliver - 0.98 (336)
David Lee - 0.98 (337)
Darko Milicic - 1.04 (398)

[Lionel Messi]

Great, now we can finally put to rest all this "OMGZ SIGN DARKO" nonsense.

[Fairview4Life]

Ok, that makes sense and would definitely give a more accurate picture of what's happening on the floor.

To me this is the type of thing that can get us as close to baseball stats as possible, but in order to do that you have to be really careful when assigning specific play types. Which is the real difficulty with stats in a fluid team sport like basketball.

[Reignman]

Who should we have drafted instead?

Man, some of you guys see things in only black and white. If BC felt Bargs was BPA or had the highest ceiling then he made the right pick from an asset perspective.

But since it was clear as day that Bargs wasn't the right fit, then BC should've traded Bargs (the asset) for a better fit a long time ago. If posters on this board figured out 2 or 3 years (some knew even before) ago that Bargs / Bosh don't work as a starting tandem, then moves should've made made to address that or Bargs should've been turned into a 6th man.

People have been saying drafting Bargnani was a mistake. But BRoy didn't wanna work out for us and neither did Tyrus Thomas and LMA plays the same position as Bosh. Not much left after that.

Speaking of black and white, it seems as though some posters assume that if you want to trade a player, you pick up the phone, call a GM and BAM! Everyone is happy with the deal. I'm sure there is much more to it than that. Because the same people that wants Bargs traded would be calling for BC's head if he got fleeced in the deal. And after Barg's rookie season, I'm pretty sure his stock dropped quite a bit so the return would have been poor.

Yes, there is the argument that BC is infatuated with Bargnani and that very well may be true but it also may be false. Because nobody here could provide irrefutable proof that suggests it's true, there is no point in using that as a point to prove anything.

Although I don't agree that there wasn't a deal out there that made sense, we could've circumvented all of that by simply not extending Bargs. How valuable would his expiring contract been at the trade deadline? Think of the deals that went through for expirings (Butler / Haywood comes to mind immediately). You couple that with Bargs still being an attractive asset from a "potential" perspective and we would've been laughing.

And everyone and his mother knew that teams would be in "sell" mode with the economy being where it is / was.

[tmoney34]

@ Reignman,

I do agree with your idea of not extending and then having an extra expiring piece at the deadline.
However, there must be a valid reason that BC chose to extend Bargs. And in my opinion, the deal is a pretty decent value compared to other deals out there (LMA comes to mind). Maybe BC was looking to keep some of his frontcourt intact if Bosh does end up leaving.

It's not the best scenario but if Bosh leaves and BC somehow brings in that defensive, low-post C with Bargnani at the 4, it might work and is at least worth a try.

[AfricanSensation]

Damn, I always knew Pryz would have been the perfect complement to Bosh, a tall wide strong Center for under the mle who can play D and is not awfull on offence!
And look at Gortat, the guy I see as the new Pryz, I would love to have him next to Bosh...

[Guy Smiley]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn3dJwhJX8c&feature=youtube_gdata[/youtube]

[cookieman]

Bargnani is comfortable here and wants to spend his whole career in Toronto. This is rare. When you're stuck with a stigma that hurts you when trying to sign or retain players, it's difficult to move a guy who really wants to be here. Colangelo believed that Bargnani could put on weight, defend 5's and stretch the offense for Bosh, the way Frye does in Phoenix, the way Okur does in Utah, etc. Offensively, he was right. Defensively, the Raptors needed either excellent perimeter defense or better interior D from Bosh and Bargnani. They got neither. The question is what to do now?

Getting rid of Bargnani with Bosh gone makes no sense. It's easier to find a defensive-minded player than it is to find a scorer. That's just the nature of the NBA. Guys who score get paid. They get drafted higher, too. If you jettison Bargnani for a defensive C, who do you put at the 4? Amir Johnson? Where does your frontcourt scoring come from? You'd end up being the Chicago Bulls without Derrick Rose. 20 wins.

We have an opportunity. Bosh and Bargnani weren't good together defensively. Now that Colangelo's hand is forced with Bosh leaving, he's the one you replace with a defender/rebounder. A PJ Brown type would be perfect. But to move a young, improving frontcourt scorer when you've already lost your other one, just doesn't make any sense. As much as you dislike him, I don't think he's going anywhere, and there is good cause for that.

[Reignman]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn3dJwhJX8c&feature=youtube_gdata[/youtube]

Gorilla Warfare at it's finest. F'n classic Smiley!

[BigApple]

I'm somewhat skeptical of this stat. While I personally think Bargnani is an embarassment on defense, so are his teammates. When one of the wings gets blown by, and Bargnani has to rotate to cut off the penetrator, that typically leaves his man open for the easy dish, which would skew this stat. I've seen that countless times over the season. I think this stat would be more balanced if we had adequate perimeter defenders, or at least half-decent help defenders.

Most fans don't understand the game enough to understand this just as they never see the pass that leads to the pass that creates an open shot or easy bucket. Defense is team oriented, help doesn't come from one player, everyone must rotate and provide help. If one man comes out to help the next guy has to rotate over to help the helper. This is where the Raptors fell apart. One guy would come out to help but the next guy wouldn't follow behind and if the next guy did then the following guy wouldn't. In the end the team lost trust in each other and stopped helping all together to avoid being made look bad when their original man scored a wide open shot or dunked one home.

I'm to lazy after my porn shoot in Germany today to dive into this and figure out what these stats are about but if they do not account for switches, help defense and various other things then they certainly cannot be considered factual evidence.

Anyhow I'm off the party with my roomies at the local German folk dance club, Bargnani sucks and Gay is a superstar.

Bye now

[Reignman]

Bargnani is comfortable here and wants to spend his whole career in Toronto. This is rare. When you're stuck with a stigma that hurts you when trying to sign or retain players, it's difficult to move a guy who really wants to be here. Colangelo believed that Bargnani could put on weight, defend 5's and stretch the offense for Bosh, the way Frye does in Phoenix, the way Okur does in Utah, etc. Offensively, he was right. Defensively, the Raptors needed either excellent perimeter defense or better interior D from Bosh and Bargnani. They got neither. The question is what to do now?

Getting rid of Bargnani with Bosh gone makes no sense. It's easier to find a defensive-minded player than it is to find a scorer. That's just the nature of the NBA. Guys who score get paid. They get drafted higher, too. If you jettison Bargnani for a defensive C, who do you put at the 4? Amir Johnson? Where does your frontcourt scoring come from? You'd end up being the Chicago Bulls without Derrick Rose. 20 wins.

We have an opportunity. Bosh and Bargnani weren't good together defensively. Now that Colangelo's hand is forced with Bosh leaving, he's the one you replace with a defender/rebounder. A PJ Brown type would be perfect. But to move a young, improving frontcourt scorer when you've already lost your other one, just doesn't make any sense. As much as you dislike him, I don't think he's going anywhere, and there is good cause for that.

LOL, I guess that's really the last argument that can be made.

Let's fold up shop, please.

[34_fifty]

Our entire **** team sucks @ defense no need to weed out one guy's defensive liabilities.

[Kevin Willis]

Here's a list of most centers (starting and backup) in the league). I might have missed some, but most are here:

Joel Przybilla - 0.75 (14)
Al Horford - 0.76 (18)
Andrew Bynum - 0.82 (39)
Nene Hilario - 0.82 (39)
Kendrick Perkins - 0.82 (40)
Dwight Howard - 0.82 (40)
Tim Duncan - 0.83 (51)
Mehmet Okur - 0.83 (51)
Joel Anthony - 0.83 (51)
Brendan Haywood - 0.83 (52)
Marcus Camby - 0.84 (61)
Robin Lopez - 0.84 (61)
Jermaine O'Neal - 0.84 (62)
Marcin Gortat - 0.85 (86)
Pau Gasol - 0.86 (100)
Nenad Krstic - 0.86 (100)
Brook Lopez - 0.86 (101)
Tyson Chandler - 0.86 (101)
Ben Wallace - 0.87 (120)
Andrew Bogut - 0.87 (121)
Samuel Dalembert - 0.87 (121)
Marc Gasol - 0.88 (133)
Greg Oden - 0.89 (160)
Channing Frye - 0.89 (160)
DeAndre Jordan - 0.89 (160)
Joakim Noah - 0.89 (162)
Chuck Hayes - 0.90 (183)
Serge Ibaka - 0.90 (183)
Andris Biedrins - 0.90 (183)
Anderson Varejao - 0.90 (184)
Chris Andersen - 0.91 (210)
Emeka Okafor - 0.91 (210)
Erick Dampier - 0.91 (210)
Nazr Mohammed - 0.91 (210)
Spencer Hawes - 0.92 (235)
Andrea Bargnani - 0.92 (236)
Al Jefferson - 0.93 (255)
Chris Kaman - 0.94 (277)
Roy Hibbert - 0.94 (278)
Hasheem Thabeet - 0.96 (308)
Anthony Tolliver - 0.98 (336)
David Lee - 0.98 (337)
Darko Milicic - 1.04 (398)

Thanks so much SS. It gives great perspective.

[Reignman]

Our entire **** team sucks @ defense no need to weed out one guy's defensive liabilities.

there are 5 guys on the floor at any given moment and they work together to build your team defense. Bargs just happens to play a key defensive position in the NBA and sucks at it which is why he gets his fair share of blame.

Everyone gets there's, from Jose to Hedo to Bosh; however, Jose and Bargs get it more than others because A) they are amongst the worst at their respective positions B) they are the first and last lines of defense

You replace those 2 with adequate defenders and it would have a substantial effect on our team defense.

Right off the bat I'd say less switching and less free paths from the weakside.

[J-Roc]

So according to the big list (thanks SS), we should go after our Canadian boy Joel Anthony. Or how about Sammy D.

[BigApple]

So according to the big list (thanks SS), we should go after our Canadian boy Joel Anthony. Or how about Sammy D.

Certainly not Roy Hibbert and Kaman, glad we didn't draft Hibbert now

[Fats Elmore]

Late to the mix but damn is this ever cool. The Synergy stuff that is. The rest of the discussion I think I've seen before...

Great, now we can finally put to rest all this "OMGZ SIGN DARKO" nonsense.

And start up the "Bring Joel Home!" brigade?