SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated)

[Black Milk]

You must be european = not generalizing.

okey dokey

You might not be european but you sure as hell love Bargnani out of proportion to his "body of work"

[Lionel Messi]

You must be european = not generalizing.

okey dokey

Are you European?

[Skeebs]

Oh I get it, its the reverse racism thing. Because I dislike Bosh as a player and Bosh is Back then that automatically must mean that I hate black altheltes and therefore am a bigot euro.

Are you sure you're not projecting?

[Skeebs]

You must be european = not generalizing.

okey dokey

Are you European?

I dont think that has any bearing on this message board and you should be ashamed of even bringing it up for discussion.

Are you arab? are you jew? are you black?

[Courtside]

Wow - just got back from Buffalo and this thread is 22 pages? I skimmed and have several things to reply to, by the looks of it, and will do so shortly in a separate post. I do think we're missing a little context though.

Supersub - I'm going to sign up for synergy also, but since you've already got your head into this new treasure trove - is there also information on the number of defensive plays being made? ie: the stats on raptorschat showed that Bargs was far and away the one who was the last defender - as in he challenged the most shots. Does the site in any way quantify this for our team? In this case it's Bargs (since you themed the thread on him), but would this tell us if he is in fact being "exposed" by weak defense on the perimeter or not?

(more to follow... )

[Clutch Carter]

No. I clearly explained that I wasn't generalizing anyone.

You are implying that his opinion shouldn't be taken seriously because he's European, and all Europeans are incapable of rational thought when it comes to basketball because simply because his opinion differs from yours and you lack any tangible rebuttal.

In short, you are being ridiculous and very offensive at the same time.

[Skeebs]

You must be european = not generalizing.

okey dokey

You might not be european but you sure as hell love Bargnani out of proportion to his "body of work"

Bargnani is getting paid $10 million and is improving every season. Bosh wants $20+ million and hasnt improved for a while now. Call me crazy but one of them has the chance to earn his pay and the other is simply going to be a perennial loser because hes making too much money to surround him with the players he needs to succeed.

[Black Milk]

I'm just going to quote Schadenfreude for people who might have missed it because it needs to be restated.

The verdict on Bargnani's defense is as close to unanimous as it gets: everyone save for a handful of Raptors fans and every cluster of pixels imaginable have long since concluded that he is an absolutely awful defensive player. And they have concluded this because it is, in fact, the truth.

[kyphi]

You must be european = not generalizing.

okey dokey

Are you European?

I dont think that has any bearing on this message board and you should be ashamed of even bringing it up for discussion.

Are you arab? are you jew? are you black?

ooh 20 questions. Are you Contender?

[Lionel Messi]

All I meant to say was that there is a certain contingent of Raptors fans that will stop at nothing to make sure Bargnani is held in the highest regard possible.
They will endlessly bash the coaches, his point guards, and especially the best player on the team.

I, like many others, have grown tired of these people, because they are quite clearly more Bargnani fans than Raptor fans.
While I criticize Bargnani's shortcomings with hope that in the future he will improve to the point where he can become a player that will make us significantly better as a team, they criticize every other player on the Raptors in order to make sure Bargnani isn't blamed for anything he does wrong.

Bargnani is rebounding poorly? Bosh is STEALING them because he's a stat-whore.
Bargnani didn't get enough touches? Jose hates him! He NEVER passes to him.
Bargnani doesn't get Iso plays run for him all the time? Triano is a moron, Bargnani is an awesome scorer but Bosh is stealing all his shots on the elbow. Bosh is "stagnating" the offence and Bargnani isn't getting enough touches.
Bargnani's help D is poor? Well, even Bargnani fanboys will admit to this one.
A stat that shows that Bargnani is scored on in a 1v1 situation more often than most NBA Centers? This stat is "trash" and Bargnani's teammates are so bad on defence that it makes him seem worse.
Another stat that shows that the Raps defend much better when Bargnani is off the floor? Stats are lame! Use your eyes!

NOTE: I have NEVER argued using the Adjusted Plus/Minus stat. I despise pretty much every variation of the plus/minus stat.

I defend Bargnani as well, but I don't try and deflect the blame from him at every opportunity like some of you on here.

[Black Milk]

You must be european = not generalizing.

okey dokey

You might not be european but you sure as hell love Bargnani out of proportion to his "body of work"

Bargnani is getting paid $10 million and is improving every season. Bosh wants $20+ million and hasnt improved for a while now. Call me crazy but one of them has the chance to earn his pay and the other is simply going to be a perennial loser because hes making too much money to surround him with the players he needs to succeed.

Career best season is not improvement. But Bargnani scoring 1.8 more points and grabbing 0.9 more rebounds while dropping both his 3pt and Ft % is significant improvement.

Dude its pathetic and hilarious what you are trying to do, so now I'm just going to sit back and watch.

[Lionel Messi]

You must be european = not generalizing.

okey dokey

Are you European?

I dont think that has any bearing on this message board and you should be ashamed of even bringing it up for discussion.

Are you arab? are you jew? are you black?

I'm Israeli.
Lived in Israel for 6/7 years, moved to England for a couple of years and have lived in Toronto for the past 10 years.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Anyone else suprised to see how bad Okafor was rated?

Wasnt he considered the anti-Bargs for a lot of people on the board.

IMO, Every C would lose consistently (not every time) when covering a pg on the perimeter.

All our BIGS get exposed when they switch with Jose's plan. Our schemes hurt us as much as our individual players. Our Bigs switch off way too much, especially Bargs.

Our D improves by 25% (just a guess) if Jose is replaced by Banks and we have a better scheme to play to our strengths.

Its much easier to replace Jose than Bargs on our team.

[The Chucker]

Stop posting Lionel. You're so god damn annyoying. Same thing with you Skeebs literring this thread with crap.

[Lionel Messi]

Anyone else suprised to see how bad Okafor was rated?

Wasnt he considered the anti-Bargs for a lot of people on the board.

IMO, Every C would lose consistently (not every time) when covering a pg on the perimeter.

All our BIGS get exposed when they switch with Jose's plan. Our schemes hurt us as much as our individual players. Our Bigs switch off way too much, especially Bargs.

Our D improves by 25% (just a guess) if Jose is replaced by Banks and we have a better scheme to play to our strengths.

Its much easier to replace Jose than Bargs on our team.

I hate Okafor. I always said he was overrated.
I would never trade Bargnani for this overpaid, overrrated drama queen.

[MacDaddy]

You must be european = not generalizing.

okey dokey

You might not be european but you sure as hell love Bargnani out of proportion to his "body of work"

Bargnani is getting paid $10 million and is improving every season. Bosh wants $20+ million and hasnt improved for a while now. Call me crazy but one of them has the chance to earn his pay and the other is simply going to be a perennial loser because hes making too much money to surround him with the players he needs to succeed.

I am in awe of the monolithic proportions of your intellectual fail.

[Skeebs]

I'm just going to quote Schadenfreude for people who might have missed it because it needs to be restated.

The verdict on Bargnani's defense is as close to unanimous as it gets: everyone save for a handful of Raptors fans and every cluster of pixels imaginable have long since concluded that he is an absolutely awful defensive player. And they have concluded this because it is, in fact, the truth.

You can keep quoting other people and ignoring my replies to yours thats fine. I never said Bargs was all defencive first team or whatever. If you watch Bosh speak all he says is "you need to surround me with better players" and "what do you expect me to do, average 50 points and 20 rebounds?"

While bargs is knows he needs to get better in many areas and constantly talks about his areas of improvement. At least he knows where he needs to work and is doing so. Talk is cheap and next year will show if he has it or not. Its make or break for bargs next year.

Bosh has already had his chance, 6 years and the #1 option and he hasnt done jack. No individual accolades besides being an allstar and no team accolades. How much better is dwight than bosh? Lebron? Melo? Wade? Kobe? All these players are head and shoulders above bosh. THEY deserve to make 1/5th of their teams payroll (i think 1/5th is the max but whatever it is bosh doesnt deserve the max)

[Black Milk]

I'm just going to quote Schadenfreude for people who might have missed it because it needs to be restated.

The verdict on Bargnani's defense is as close to unanimous as it gets: everyone save for a handful of Raptors fans and every cluster of pixels imaginable have long since concluded that he is an absolutely awful defensive player. And they have concluded this because it is, in fact, the truth.

You can keep quoting other people and ignoring my replies to yours thats fine. I never said Bargs was all defencive first team or whatever. If you watch Bosh speak all he says is "you need to surround me with better players" and "what do you expect me to do, average 50 points and 20 rebounds?"

While bargs is knows he needs to get better in many areas and constantly talks about his areas of improvement. At least he knows where he needs to work and is doing so. Talk is cheap and next year will show if he has it or not. Its make or break for bargs next year.

Bosh has already had his chance, 6 years and the #1 option and he hasnt done jack. No individual accolades besides being an allstar and no team accolades. How much better is dwight than bosh? Lebron? Melo? Wade? Kobe? All these players are head and shoulders above bosh. THEY deserve to make 1/5th of their teams payroll (i think 1/5th is the max but whatever it is bosh doesnt deserve the max)

If you were to read you'd see that I indeed did reply to you right on top of this page.

[Lionel Messi]

No. I clearly explained that I wasn't generalizing anyone.

You are implying that his opinion shouldn't be taken seriously because he's European, and all Europeans are incapable of rational thought when it comes to basketball because simply because his opinion differs from yours and you lack any tangible rebuttal.

In short, you are being ridiculous and very offensive at the same time.

I'm going to repeat what I said:

I'm not saying every Euro Raps fan is like this, but if a guy comes on and starts defending Bargnani non-stop and attacking/degrading Bosh non-stop, their opinion can't be taken seriously.
Not because Bosh is a God and Bargnani sucks, but because they are clearly trying to downgrade Bosh in order to make Bargnani seem better.

I'm sure there are many European Raptors fans that don't do this. I'm aiming at the European player fans, who likely don't care about the Raps other than whatever impact it has on Bargnani's perception and his game.

[kyphi]

Yeah, I can see where Bosh who averaged a double/double this year and made the All-Star team doesn't deserve as much as Bargs -