SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated)

[Lionel Messi]

No, I asked you if you were EUROPEAN (nothing to do with skin colour. Europeans can have any skin colour) because I wanted to affirm my belief that you are a Bargnani fan first, rather than a Raptors fan.
I didn't base it all on whether you are European, but I assumed that since you were a Bargnani fan FIRST that you would also be European...because Bargs is European.

Either way you called my integrity into question. We are just quibbling about insults now. Anyways lets get back on topic and drop it.

Yes, I did call your integrity into question.

Are you a Bargnani fan FIRST and FOREMOST, rather than a Raptors fan? Because then your integrity WOULD be compromised.

[Clutch Carter]

It's basically a form of bigotry. IE Your opinions are invalid based on your ethnicity. Not really acceptable no matter how you try to rationalize it.

[Skeebs]

No, he compared the people who will defend Bargnani by trashing and ragging on anyone BUT Bargnani to cockroaches.
Although, I think "cockroaches" is a little extreme.

those people dont exist man, they are a figment of his imagination. I realize some retards might have said bargs will avg 30 ppg but you have to pick and choose who you take seriously and if you take those people seriously what does that say about you. 90% of people that support bargs are level headed and rational. Yes some of them are European too, calm down.

Its people that latch on to like 1 post out of a million and run with it for months, thats not helping anyone. You're just perpetuating the stupidity.

[Skeebs]

No, I asked you if you were EUROPEAN (nothing to do with skin colour. Europeans can have any skin colour) because I wanted to affirm my belief that you are a Bargnani fan first, rather than a Raptors fan.
I didn't base it all on whether you are European, but I assumed that since you were a Bargnani fan FIRST that you would also be European...because Bargs is European.

Either way you called my integrity into question. We are just quibbling about insults now. Anyways lets get back on topic and drop it.

Yes, I did call your integrity into question.

Are you a Bargnani fan FIRST and FOREMOST, rather than a Raptors fan? Because then your integrity WOULD be compromised.

I've lived in the GTA (grew up in scarbs) for the last 24 years of my life. I grew up with my chicago bulls pullover jackets in grade school, creamed my pants when I found out toronto got an NBA team.

Now that you know you wont make the mistake again.

Remember when you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME.

[Lionel Messi]

It's basically a form of bigotry. IE Your opinions are invalid based on your ethnicity. Not really acceptable no matter how you try to rationalize it.

How many times am I going to have to repeat this.

I didn't say it was because of his ethnicity. I only asked if he was European to CONFIRM my suspicions that he is a BARGNANI FAN, rather than a Raptors fan.
The fact that he is a supporter of ONLY Bargnani, rather than the team, is what invalidates his opinion...not his ethnicity.
If you can't understand that then I feel sorry for you.

[Avenger]

What i learned from this thread is its gonna be okay for me to bring up race/nationality to attack posters and not what they're actually saying. I better not be warned the next time i start questioning people if they're black and dismiss their opinion if they are when people defend that terrible rookie Colangelo drafted.

[Lionel Messi]

Either way you called my integrity into question. We are just quibbling about insults now. Anyways lets get back on topic and drop it.

Yes, I did call your integrity into question.

Are you a Bargnani fan FIRST and FOREMOST, rather than a Raptors fan? Because then your integrity WOULD be compromised.

I've lived in the GTA (grew up in scarbs) for the last 24 years of my life. I grew up with my chicago bulls pullover jackets in grade school, creamed my pants when I found out toronto got an NBA team.

Now that you know you wont make the mistake again.

Remember when you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME.

Yeah, I said it was my mistake to assume things.

Although, your posts make no sense when you couple them with that story. So why do you rag on one of the team's hardest workers and most passionate players (Jack)?

[Lionel Messi]

What i learned from this thread is its gonna be okay for me to bring up race/nationality to attack posters and not what they're actually saying. I better not be warned the next time i start questioning people if they're black when people defend that terrible rookie Colangelo drafted.

What I learned from this post is that your reading comprehension needs some serious work.

[Skeebs]

It's basically a form of bigotry. IE Your opinions are invalid based on your ethnicity. Not really acceptable no matter how you try to rationalize it.

How many times am I going to have to repeat this.

I didn't say it was because of his ethnicity. I only asked if he was European to CONFIRM my suspicions that he is a BARGNANI FAN, rather than a Raptors fan.
The fact that he is a supporter of ONLY Bargnani, rather than the team, is what invalidates his opinion...not his ethnicity.
If you can't understand that then I feel sorry for you.

No you arent understanding. Because if I had said 'Yes I am european' then you would have said 'AHA! I got you!' and not taken my points seriously and toss my opinion aside.

[Ripp]

Look, here is the deal. Me, I've been watching the Raps since the 2008-2009 season. I've not seen anything suggesting that Bargnani is even better than Jose or Jack. Jose and Jack are nice players, but not even rock solid starters, not to talk of all-star. Then you have a guy like CB, who is not just a one-time all-star, but by most accounts one of the top 2 or 3 PFs currently in the league, and had a historically great season.

It is an insult to logic or intelligence to compare the two players. Compare Bargs to Amir, Jose, and Jack...that might be an intellectually stimulating discussion. But comparing him to Bosh or even any of the all-star caliber players? If you make such a comparison, people will rightfully question your integrity and motives. It really is just that simple.

With that said, I will admit that when I started watching the Raps in the 2008-2009 season, I did sometimes see flashed of brilliance in Bargs. And this really is all he has left, potential and hope for the future. But let's keep it real...the guy will be 25 in October. If you don't get it by 25, you'll never get it. Bargnani has yet to make the ginormous leap that every other player with star potential has made.

So realistically, the clock is ticking. Even Stromile Swift and Kwame Brown had a lot of potential...you just have to be careful you don't keep waiting for something that will never happen.

[Avenger]

Although, your posts make no sense when you couple them with that story. So why do you rag on one of the team's hardest workers and most passionate players (Jack)?

hard work and passion is completely irrelevant when you're hurting the team everytime you step on the floor, he was the Raptors worst big minute player followed by Bargnani.

[Lionel Messi]

It's basically a form of bigotry. IE Your opinions are invalid based on your ethnicity. Not really acceptable no matter how you try to rationalize it.

How many times am I going to have to repeat this.

I didn't say it was because of his ethnicity. I only asked if he was European to CONFIRM my suspicions that he is a BARGNANI FAN, rather than a Raptors fan.
The fact that he is a supporter of ONLY Bargnani, rather than the team, is what invalidates his opinion...not his ethnicity.
If you can't understand that then I feel sorry for you.

No you arent understanding. Because if I had said 'Yes I am european' then you would have said 'AHA! I got you!' and not taken my points seriously and toss my opinion aside.

No, I tossed your opinion out the moment you started saying Bosh wouldn't average 20 points on the Mavs, or the moment you called Jarrett Jack "TJ" to defend your opinion that Bargnani is the second best player on the Raptors.

[Ripp]

It's basically a form of bigotry. IE Your opinions are invalid based on your ethnicity. Not really acceptable no matter how you try to rationalize it.

How many times am I going to have to repeat this.

I didn't say it was because of his ethnicity. I only asked if he was European to CONFIRM my suspicions that he is a BARGNANI FAN, rather than a Raptors fan.
The fact that he is a supporter of ONLY Bargnani, rather than the team, is what invalidates his opinion...not his ethnicity.
If you can't understand that then I feel sorry for you.

No you arent understanding. Because if I had said 'Yes I am european' then you would have said 'AHA! I got you!' and not taken my points seriously and toss my opinion aside.

What is so hard to understand? You are comparing one of the elite players in the league to a guy who is at best roughly as good as Jarrett Jack. If I then learn that you are from Italy, and in fact Bargnani's cousin, why is it unjust to question your motives? I either have to question your motives, or question something else.

[Lionel Messi]

Look, here is the deal. Me, I've been watching the Raps since the 2008-2009 season. I've not seen anything suggesting that Bargnani is even better than Jose or Jack. Jose and Jack are nice players, but not even rock solid starters, not to talk of all-star. Then you have a guy like CB, who is not just a one-time all-star, but by most accounts one of the top 2 or 3 PFs currently in the league, and had a historically great season.

It is an insult to logic or intelligence to compare the two players. Compare Bargs to Amir, Jose, and Jack...that might be an intellectually stimulating discussion. But comparing him to Bosh or even any of the all-star caliber players? If you make such a comparison, people will rightfully question your integrity and motives. It really is just that simple.

With that said, I will admit that when I started watching the Raps in the 2008-2009 season, I did sometimes see flashed of brilliance in Bargs. And this really is all he has left, potential and hope for the future. But let's keep it real...the guy will be 25 in October. If you don't get it by 25, you'll never get it. Bargnani has yet to make the ginormous leap that every other player with star potential has made.

So realistically, the clock is ticking. Even Stromile Swift and Kwame Brown had a lot of potential...you just have to be careful you don't keep waiting for something that will never happen.

Ya, but Bargnani has already made something out of his potential. Those guys never did.
Maybe you don't like the path that Bargnani is on, but he has solidified himself as a legit NBA player (not all-star, just a valuable NBA player).
I'm hoping he continues to improve, because he has "gotten" some things...just not enough.

[Skeebs]

Look, here is the deal. Me, I've been watching the Raps since the 2008-2009 season...

I stopped reading right about there.

[Lionel Messi]

Although, your posts make no sense when you couple them with that story. So why do you rag on one of the team's hardest workers and most passionate players (Jack)?

hard work and passion is completely irrelevant when you're hurting the team everytime you step on the floor, he was the Raptors worst big minute player followed by Bargnani.

I disagree.

[Clutch Carter]

It's basically a form of bigotry. IE Your opinions are invalid based on your ethnicity. Not really acceptable no matter how you try to rationalize it.

How many times am I going to have to repeat this.

I didn't say it was because of his ethnicity. I only asked if he was European to CONFIRM my suspicions that he is a BARGNANI FAN, rather than a Raptors fan.
The fact that he is a supporter of ONLY Bargnani, rather than the team, is what invalidates his opinion...not his ethnicity.
If you can't understand that then I feel sorry for you.

What you fail to understand is that a posters ethnicity has no bearing on the actual debate. It's clear trying to reason with you isn't working, so I'll just leave it at that.

[Ripp]

Ya, but Bargnani has already made something out of his potential. Those guys never did.
Maybe you don't like the path that Bargnani is on, but he has solidified himself as a legit NBA player (not all-star, just a valuable NBA player).
I'm hoping he continues to improve, because he has "gotten" some things...just not enough.

My point wasn't clear, I guess. My point is that potential is not enough. Lots of people have had it, but have not panned out.

So from what you say, you are satisfied with the current player that is Andrea Bargnani, and thus think that he has panned out? Is this a player you want to go to war with next year? I would like to see massive improvement both offensively and defensively before I'd view him as even a legitimate starting player.

[RocLaFamilia]

Bargnani has yet to make the ginormous leap that every other player with star potential has made.

Again not trying to attack you, don't want to be called any names by you. But what is this "leap" look like statistically with other star potential players? Also you mentioned that players don't improve after they are 25? Isn't Bosh 26, and I am sure you and other posters have pointed out that he improved from last year to this year? I am may be misunderstanding you, so just clearing it up.

[Ripp]

Bargnani has yet to make the ginormous leap that every other player with star potential has made.

Again not trying to attack you, don't want to be called any names by you. But what is this "leap" look like statistically with other star potential players? Also you mentioned that players don't improve after they are 25? Isn't Bosh 26, and I am sure you and other posters have pointed out that he improved from last year to this year? I am may be misunderstanding you, so just clearing it up.

OK...can you pick a player in the league that you think has had an nice career over his first 5 years that you think Bargnani can roughly be as good as? Pick such a guy, then I'll show you the differences in their progression. Perhaps a European big man of some sort might be a good comparison, but I leave it at your discretion to choose.

And sorry if you've viewed any of my comments as namecalling...I apologize for any offense given.