Retro POY '03-04 (Voting Complete)

[sp6r=underrated]

.04 didn't hurt, either.

It still pisses me off that we ultimately wasted that shot.

Funny. As a Duncan fan I'm angry he wasted that memorial "should have been" game winner because of .04.

[Sedale Threatt]

As Shaq said, quite perfectly, "One lucky shot deserves another."

[drza]

.04 didn't hurt, either.

It still pisses me off that we ultimately wasted that shot.

Funny. As a Duncan fan I'm angry he wasted that memorial "should have been" game winner because of .04.

Funny. As a Garnett fan I'm angry that this prevented the closest thing we ever would have gotten to a prime KG vs Duncan matchup in the postseason. Even with Cassell hurt and throwing the teams out of balance again, I would have paid good money to get to see that just once with both guys at their peaks on a big stage.

[sp6r=underrated]

So it's settled, everyone was disappointed in 2004. 2004 was like getting pumped for an undergrad kegger and then going to the party and finding the kegs are empty and not one woman is in the crowd.

[An Unbiased Fan]

You could also say that Kobe's off-court drama -- which was self inflicted, let's remember -- had a hugely negative impact on the season, capped off by his flame-out in the Finals. I can't seriously consider him.

Well, that's true. I'm still not sure how you can't consider probably the best player in the playoffs until the finals, and one of the most important players on a championship team in the regular season... if Minny eliminates the Lakers in 7 in WCF people would be singing a little bit of a different tune.

I think that Laker squad is one of the most interesting stories in recent memory and people all have a different sense of what happened that year with them, which makes it even more intriguing. I don't think the Lakers had any business being in the Finals to begin with, given their circumstances that year, people will remember that year as a epic Laker failure, given the talent, etc... but in retrospect given the injuries and circumstances surrounding the team, and the fact that they actually weren't all that talented, it was a miracle they were even in the finals.

Interesting points. I do expect people to be overly harsh towards Kobe because of his Finals. But think about this. No one outside of Shaq & Kobe scored more than 10 points in ANY game outside of garabge time in game 5. Kobe took a lot of tough shots, but that was due in large part to the absolute suckfest the roleplayers put on, and the inability of LA to establish Shaq downlow. Detroit was very good at running down court and preventing Shaq from getting good position.

Roleplayer shooting:
Fisher - 30.6%
Payton - 32.1%
George - 39.3%
Malone - 33.3%
Slava - 35.3%
Rush - 31.8%
Walton - 38.5%

Only Rick Fox who only shot 7 shots was over 40% amongst the roleplayers. This allowed Detorit to basically guard 2 players the whole series. Shaq only shot when he was right by the basket, and Kobe was the only one who could create his own shot.

[mysticbb]

Looking at some of these candidates, and the overall summary, it was just a lame season all around. If the regular-season records had held up, we'd have been headed for a Minnesota-Indiana Finals. How strange would that have been?

Well, that had also a lot to do with the injuries to some of the more important players like Chris Webber, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal or Kobe Bryant. The Mavericks completely screwed up their roster by adding two players who played essential the same position as their best player and they had no real center anymore. In the East the Nets had injuries to Kenyon Martin and Jason Kidd, Iverson only played 48 games.
After the draft teams like the Heat, Denver, Toronto or the Cavs tried to build around their new rookies. And rookies usually don't have a big impact. The biggest had probably Dwyane Wade, but nobody really talked about him, because of LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony.
Just imagine that players like Jermaine O'Neal (48.9 ts%!) or Peja Stojakovic were considered MVP candidates (and others complained for 2005 about Steve Nash).

Well, overall it wasn't a really good season and Kevin Garnett for sure was the best player that season. It might somewhat explain that in the very next season Garnett's impact wasn't as big anymore and the Timberwolves missed the playoffs. The rest of the league improved again.

Anyway, my vote:

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Chauncey Billups

HM: Jason Kidd, Ron Artest (for being DPOY and playing great perimeter defense), Tracy McGrady

[Sedale Threatt]

1. KG -- best season from an all-time great
2. Duncan -- it took everything KG had to slip past Duncan on my list
3. Shaq -- still great despite slippage (wonder what his donut shares/48 would have been)
4. Ben Wallace -- vacillated between him and Chauncey, went with Bill Russell Jr.
5. Brian Cardinal -- came for the advanced stats, stayed for the haircut

[mysticbb]

5. Brian Cardinal -- came for the advanced stats, stayed for the haircut

Lol, that made my day.

But seriously, Cardinal played only 20 mpg and came off the bench. His APM isn't close to the top in the league. Sometimes it is just the context.

And you said that you are angry about Bryant, but give the guy some credit. He played really good until the finals. The haircut wasn't that different from Cardinal's either. ;)

[Silver Bullet]

Are you guys not taking this thing seriously anymore or what's the deal ?

[Sedale Threatt]

Lol, that made my day.

But seriously, Cardinal played only 20 mpg and came off the bench. His APM isn't close to the top in the league. Sometimes it is just the context.

And you said that you are angry about Bryant, but give the guy some credit. He played really good until the finals. The haircut wasn't that different from Cardinal's either.

OK, OK...if we're being honest, I just wanted to vote for the guy because he looks exactly like my brother in law. Plus, a little tongue-in-cheek nod to what a crappy year it was.

Regarding Bryant, I wouldn't put him any higher than fourth, and considering I blasted Dirk from first to fifth for one bad series, I don't think it's overly harsh to knock Kobe down two slots for casting a pall on his team's season and turning in a horrendous Finals.

I'm going to dump on Kareem pretty hard for 83, too. And Magic in 84.

[Sedale Threatt]

Are you guys not taking this thing seriously anymore or what's the deal ?

Lighten up, junior. Just having a little fun with a fifth-place vote worth a whopping two points in a thoroughly forgettable year.

[Doctor MJ]

1. KG -- best season from an all-time great
2. Duncan -- it took everything KG had to slip past Duncan on my list
3. Shaq -- still great despite slippage (wonder what his donut shares/48 would have been)
4. Ben Wallace -- vacillated between him and Chauncey, went with Bill Russell Jr.
5. Brian Cardinal -- came for the advanced stats, stayed for the haircut

Nah, I'm not going to count your vote if you're not being serious. Sorry to be a hardass. Change the Cardinal vote to something I can believe, and I'll count it.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

I'd like to see someone make an argument for Ben Wallace over anyone else on those Pistons. I can't see it personally, and I feel that Rasheed really made his job a lot easier. Without Rasheed, Ben can't do what he does, and that Detroit team isn't nearly as good.

Chauncey imo was the most indispensable member of that squad, between his running of the offense, timely shooting (this was before he became overrated as a clutch shooter in the coming years), and well above average defense at the point guard position.

Also don't think you can penalize Shaq and Kobe THAT much for the Finals, they were still 2 of the top 5 players in the NBA for the entire rest of the season. I think both have to be on any top 5 list.

EDIT: Sedale if you really HAVE to put Ben up there, at least put Chauncey at # 5. It just makes me sick to see Ben on a top 5 list, he is imo one of the most overrated players of all time, and I'd like to be convinced otherwise if there is a good argument for it.

[Sedale Threatt]

Nah, I'm not going to count your vote if you're not being serious. Sorry to be a hardass. Change the Cardinal vote to something I can believe, and I'll count it.

Alfredo Garcia.

If he doesn't qualify, then Chauncey Billups.

[Sedale Threatt]

Without Rasheed, Ben can't do what he does, and that Detroit team isn't nearly as good.

What, defend and rebound like a mad man? Ben had already been doing that for a number of years before Rasheed ever showed up.

Now, I agree that his arrival put the Pistons over the top. Not because he was that spectacular, but because he was the last piece in a rare ensemble championship team.

At any rate, I'm not going to cart out a bunch of stats or formulas or anything like that to support him. We're not even a fifth of the way through this project, and my eyes are already watering. I feel like I'm back in college taking an advanced calculus class.

I picked him for two reasons: 1. There is a significant dearth of candidates; 2. I like what he contributed to a championship team.

[ElGee]

Jermaine O'Neal? Am I missing something? He's at the bottom of the league for big men in scoring effiiency...can we hear more about him?

[mysticbb]

Jermaine O'Neal? Am I missing something? He's at the bottom of the league for big men in scoring effiiency...can we hear more about him?

I refuse to talk about him. He is not only on the bottom in scoring efficiency that year, he has also the worst Net+/- of all starters for the Pacers and the worst OnCourt DRtg of the S5. Yes, I don't think that Jermaine O'Neal is that good and he wasn't the main reason for the 61 wins of the Pacers that season.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

I'll say this in JO's defense, for as poor as his offensive efficiency was, he still produced far more than Ben Wallace, with a comparable presence on defense, only really lagging behind in rebounding.

Still a weak candidate for a top 5 though.

[NO-KG-AI]

JO shouldn't be top 5 probably, but he was seen at the time, far better than some are remembering.

[Gongxi]

Just for posterity's sake, I'm going to say that throughout this thing I'm going mostly by on-court production, with games in December mattering as much as games in March, and games in the playoffs meaning only about 50% more than games in the regular season. Which is to say: if you play 20 playoff games and 82 regular season games, your regular season still accounts for roughly 2/3rds of where I'm placing you. Why? Because a 20 game sample size pales in comparison to 82 or, together, 102 games.

Also, I don't much care about how well your team did. It's basketball, not ping pong- one player can't dictate whether an entire team wins or loses.

So how much do we really need to talk about Garnett here? He was statistically clearly above his peers in the regular season. In the playoffs, if can be argued that he was not the absolute best (statistically), but if not, he was right there among them. His defense was stellar all year long. That covers most of what should be said, but I know there's some people that think great players somehow forget how to play basketball or something when their teams don't make the playoffs or something (see Garnett's showing in 04-05) so for those folks: he had team success, too. A trip to the WCF where he was derailed not by a more productive star, but by one of the greatest 1-2 punches in history, whilst Minnesota suffered injuries. He's #1 this season and I'd expect (hope), he POY shares are .900+. 24/14/5/2? Come on.

Then we have Duncan in his own little tier, I believe, with a great, great regular season and very good postseason. After TD, it gets tight, but emotional implosion or not, Bryant and O'Neal (the Shaquille version) go here. Great individual seasons, and Shaq played a little better in the postseason, and Kobe missed a bunch of games in the regular season.

Fifth? I'd go with McGrady, but he only played 67 games. Kobe might've been able to get away with that, with his season and playoff games decreasing the percentage of total missed games; TMac isn't. Jermaine O'Neal simply wasn't that efficient offensively; pretty sure that was just the ol' “This team won 60+ games, someone must be MVP-caliber on it, right?!”. Jason Kidd would be a nice choice, too, but he shares McGrady's problem. Dirk had a great playoffs...all five games of it. This is perhaps Jason Kidd's last prime season. 9 triple-doubles, excellent defense, 15/9/7 but...67 games played. Peja: 24 ppg and 6 rpg isn't too impressive, but 62 TS% is a little ridiculous. And he played 81 games. I guess that last stat is good enough for this season.

Peja takes 5th for me

1- Kevin Garnett
2- Tim Duncan
3- Shaquille O'Neal
4- Kobe Bryant
5- Peja Stojakovic