Retro POY '02-03 (ends Tue morning PST)

[An Unbiased Fan]

My problem with Tmac was his lackluster defense, and that he played more games against a horrible Eastern Conference, where Kobe was All-D 1st team, and had to face tough West teams most of the time.

Tmac's stats are slightly better, Kobe's defense was much better.

You haven't read anything in the previous pages, check page 3 and Page 6 post about McGrady and Kobe's defense. I have no idea where you get "lack luster" defense from, when witnessing the team throughout an 82 game season showed that he was arguably an above average defender. Plus there was a bunch of other stuff that was in McGrad'y statistical favor, but again check TMACFORMVPs post on Page 3 and the Page 6, there's a long explanation among the defenses between the two.

I saw plenty of Tmac in 03', and the consensus feeling was that he was a lackluster defender. Both him and Vince were called out for this consistently that year. Kobe on the other hand was 1st team All-D, while Tmac was no where to be found.

And what other stuff are your reffering to? Kobe had more boards and assists too.

[Baller 24]

I saw plenty of Tmac in 03', and the consensus feeling was that he was a lackluster defender. Both him and Vince were called out for this consistently that year. Kobe on the other hand was 1st team All-D, while Tmac was no where to be found.

And what other stuff are your reffering to? Kobe had more boards and assists too.

You didn't read any of the arguments from the previous pages about the defense or how Kobe played without Shaq, or even how their perimeter defense was absolutely terrible (last) with an elite Kobe anchoring it, while Orlando was in the top 10, etc. but anyways there's actually no point in starting a repetitive argument all over again, if you decide to read everything and state your side feel free to argue then, but I'm not going to be repetitive and waste my time.

[Silver Bullet]

Look, I'll explain why I hold missing games against every other player except Shaq and to a lesser extent Duncan.

Good post, but I'm not sure where this is coming from. If you read the preceding posts, we're talking about Shaq 00-02, not Shaq 03. Besides, I'm not holding games missed ahead of him. I've got him pencilled in at No. 1 for the next three years, probably 99 as well.

Yea, I just quoted your post, I wasn't responding to yours -

I think people misunderstood my original post - I will be voting for Shaq this year and the 3 preceding years and possibly 99 as well.

I don't care what stats people put up - Duncan was at best a very very distant 2nd best player during this era - despite being this dominant defensive force, you can count on one hand, the number of times he guarded Shaq.

[Gongxi]

[
How so?
Tmac had 32.1 on 45.7% shooting, 38.6% 3pt, 79.3 FT%
Kobe has 30.0 on 45.1% shooting, 38.3% 3pt, 84.3 FT%

Well, we can just wrap that up in TS%: Kobe's was 55%, which is pretty good for 30 ppg. McGrady's was 56%, which is even better for 30ppg...except he scored more than that. More production with higher efficiency is pretty important. Which also comes into play when you consider that McGrady did what he did (ya know, score more on less shots) while playing two fewer minutes a game. Plays less of a game. Scores more in it. Shoots better doing so. Alright.

One should also point out Kobe's 35+/40+ streaks where LA went 12-2, and his 40 ppg month.

Isn't that included in the season averages?

Overall, Kobe had the better year...

Kobe had 6.9 rpg
Tmac had 6.5 rpg

By virtue of playing those two extra minutes. Normalized to 36 minutes, Kobe has an advantage of .1 in rpg. And as far as rebounding % goes- the best metric- McGrady grabbed 9.5% of all the possible rebounds while he was on the floor. Kobe? 9.3%. Alright, so slight edge to McGrady there.

Kobe had 5.9 apg
Tmac had 5.5 apg

And per 36, Kobe again gets the nod by .1. In assist %, though, McGrady shoots up to 30%, Kobe is at 27.2%. All while Kobe turned the ball over one more time a game. Even if they played the same amount of minutes, Kobe still turns it over 20% more times a game, 3.0 to 2.4. While having a significantly lower usage: 32.9 to 35.2.

Kobe was All-D 1st team
Tmac was average at best on D

We already agreed that Kobe was better on defense, didn't we?

Kobe had to do this against mostly West teams
Tmac had to do it against mostly East teams

That'd be all well and good if it weren't for the fact the Kobe played better against teams from the West than he did teams from the East. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lits/2003/ Playing in the West seemed to help him.

Anyway, all those more in-depth stats are reflected in the advanced ones: McGrady's PER was 30.3; Bryant's 26.2. Win Shares? McGrady, 16.1; Bryant, 14.9. W/48: McGrady .262; Bryant, .210. So, in the end, McGrady scored more while shooting better in less time, grabbed more available rebounds, contributed more of the available assists, while turning the ball over less. He was statistically much better.

If you're voting for Kobe, you either prize team success very highly (especially considering the Lakers only advanced one extra round), or you think very highly of individual defense, which is innately less important than individual offense.

Although I know I'm not convincing you, Unbiased Fan. Nothing can sway your opinion on Kobe.

[Silver Bullet]

Gongxi - can you tell me who you remember being regarded as the better player in 2003 ?

[Gongxi]

Kobe. Because he was in the Finals the last three years.

That doesn't make him better, though.

[Baller 24]

I think 2002 will be really interesting. The Kobe v McGrady deal gets a little tougher, and then there's Kidd, Shaq, Duncan, KG..

[bastillon]

I think 2002 will be really interesting. The Kobe v McGrady deal gets a little tougher, and then there's Kidd, Shaq, Duncan, KG..

Kidd wasn't TOP5 player by any means.

[Tesla]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Tracy McGrady
5. Shaquille O'Neal

Snub: Jason Kidd

Duncan wins the MVP and the chip, this is KG's first real year of really top/peak play IMO, he did get eliminated in the 1st round, but I since nobody else close to his calibur got out of the second round I cant really justify ranking them ahead of him.

Kobe vs. Tmac.... well I am a Kobe fan and a Laker fan, but at no point when they were in their respective primes did I feel Tmac was better than Kobe. Kobe being more of a 2-way player and finishing higher on MVP voting edges Tmac out, and despite what PER says, I feel Kobes production was on-par with Tmacs. I just never felt Tmac was truley the better player, on par yes.

Shaq had a real off year, but any year in the early 00's up to 05, he is arguably the best player in the league when hes actually healthy in playing... scratch that.. .he is the best player in the league when healthy and playing.

[ronnymac2]

Nobody made me think Duncan wasn't first, so he gets the spot.

I know Shaq was idiot in the beginning of the year, which did contribute negatively to the team in general. But....I think they lost because of reasons indepenend of Shaq..and Kobe for that matter. Injuries, no depth, PJ having heart problems in the playoffs that year, and Tim Duncan performing really well are major reasons why the Lakers didn't win a fourth title.

Considering that I think Shaq, when on the floor, is clearly better than anybody else this season (except Duncan, and even then, as players, I'd take O'neal by a little bit), I'll take him at 3.

Kobe probably enters his true prime this year. He's going over Garnett and McGrady. Barely over those two, especially KG.

Yeah, T-Mac had better offensive stats than Kobe this year. That doesn't mean he was the better offensive player. They are basically equal on offense this year. That's why Kobe's defense gives him the edge.

Then KG over Tracy. Tracy over Kidd, Dirk, and yes, Michael Jordan.

Final Vote:

Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Garnett
McGrady

[ElGee]

So it appears, for the extremely narrow purposes of this little project, that KG's crappy teammates actually helped him quite a bit.

Wow. I'd argue they hurt him a lot, given that a lot of people (myself included) think he was at the top of the league for these years...and we've seen what having good teammates can do to inflate people's opinions in these projects. Garnett with Duncan's supporting cast would, well, probably have the POY record of Duncan.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I saw plenty of Tmac in 03', and the consensus feeling was that he was a lackluster defender. Both him and Vince were called out for this consistently that year. Kobe on the other hand was 1st team All-D, while Tmac was no where to be found.

And what other stuff are your reffering to? Kobe had more boards and assists too.

You didn't read any of the arguments from the previous pages about the defense or how Kobe played without Shaq, or even how their perimeter defense was absolutely terrible (last) with an elite Kobe anchoring it, while Orlando was in the top 10, etc. but anyways there's actually no point in starting a repetitive argument all over again, if you decide to read everything and state your side feel free to argue then, but I'm not going to be repetitive and waste my time.

I read the arguments, I just don't agree with them. Shaq wasn't the only one hurt at the beginning of 03', LA had multiple injuries. The coaches picked Kobe as All-D 1st, while Tmac was nowhere to be found.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Anyway, all those more in-depth stats are reflected in the advanced ones: McGrady's PER was 30.3; Bryant's 26.2. Win Shares? McGrady, 16.1; Bryant, 14.9. W/48: McGrady .262; Bryant, .210. So, in the end, McGrady scored more while shooting better in less time, grabbed more available rebounds, contributed more of the available assists, while turning the ball over less. He was statistically much better.

If you're voting for Kobe, you either prize team success very highly (especially considering the Lakers only advanced one extra round), or you think very highly of individual defense, which is innately less important than individual offense.

Although I know I'm not convincing you, Unbiased Fan. Nothing can sway your opinion on Kobe.

Tmac has a higher PER, but that's the only stat where he was "statistically much better". You downplay Kobe's reb & assists advantage using mpg, yet forget that Tmac had a higher usage rate, 35.2 vs 32.9, which helped him in other areas.

Tmac was great this year, but not nearly as good as KOBE on BOTH sides of the court. Their numbers are virtually even across the board, but Kobe gets the knod due to his elite defense.

I think individual offense AND individual defense is very important.

[Doctor MJ]

Since it's does have a bearing on this year's voting, I feel like I should say something: If you're placing Kobe ahead of McGrady this season because he played more of his team's games although played a little worse, you should extend Duncan that same courtesy vis-a-vis Shaq next year. Or, if you're gonna put Shaq at #1, disregarding the games played discrepancy, extend that courtesy to McGrady.

02-03
Bryant: 94 games played/94 games possible= 100%
McGrady: 82 games played/89 games possible: 92%
01-02
Duncan: 92 games played/92 games possible=100%
O'Neal: 86 games played/101 games possible= 85%

Obviously, all things aren't equal. Two different players, having two different season, compared to two different players with their own two different seasons. But, food for though.

Hmm. Well, I brought it up and made clear that if you think McGrady played well better than Kobe you should pick McGrady. The difference in playing time is just something that everyone should be factoring in, and should make a difference in close matchups.

Re: McGrady vs Shaq situations. There's a huge factor you're not mentioning: Shaq won the title playing "best player in the world fashion" - and every single person who rates him ahead of Duncan does so based on that. McGrady is his regular season - I can't imagine there's anyone who rated Kobe clearly better based on the regular season, and then changed their mind based on the post-season. So regular season games missed are clearly far more relevant to McGrady.

[bastillon]

Kobe probably enters his true prime this year. He's going over Garnett and McGrady. Barely over those two, especially KG.

what's the argument for Kobe over KG ?

Tmac was great this year, but not nearly as good as KOBE on BOTH sides of the court. Their numbers are virtually even across the board, but Kobe gets the knod due to his elite defense.

I think individual offense AND individual defense is very important.

where did you get this Kobe's elite defense ?

[An Unbiased Fan]

where did you get this Kobe's elite defense ?

All-Defense 1st team, and from observation.

[bastillon]

where did you get this Kobe's elite defense ?

All-Defense 1st team, and from observation.

Kobe has been known for playing below his reputation, so I don't know if 1st team all-D is really something to bring up here, especially that there was no competition for that spot to begin with. Doug Christie was 1st team all-D and Snow managed to make 2nd team. how does that prove Kobe was ELITE ?

as far as observation, which games have proven Bryant elite-D label worthy for you ?

[An Unbiased Fan]

where did you get this Kobe's elite defense ?

All-Defense 1st team, and from observation.

Kobe has been known for playing below his reputation, so I don't know if 1st team all-D is really something to bring up here, especially that there was no competition for that spot to begin with. Doug Christie was 1st team all-D and Snow managed to make 2nd team. how does that prove Kobe was ELITE ?

as far as observation, which games have proven Bryant elite-D label worthy for you ?

Not sure what you're looking for. Bowen(who played guard back then), Christie, Kidd, Snow, were all great defenders, there was plenty of competition. So yes, the All-Defense team means something. There are no stand-alone games which make a player an elite defender, its what they do for the whole year that matters.

This debate is about Tmac vs Kobe in 2003 though, and it's clear that Kobe was the superior defender that year.

[ronnymac2]

Kobe probably enters his true prime this year. He's going over Garnett and McGrady. Barely over those two, especially KG.

what's the argument for Kobe over KG ?

First off, I don't think it's a big separation. Prime Kobe and prime KG are neck and neck, and if one prefers KG, I don't have a huge problem with it. Especially in this comparison, considering 03 Bryant is a little worse than 06 Bryant.

I think Kobe is better because I value his offense over anything KG brings, including his admittedly dominant defense. And no, I don't do it as "Kobe> KG on offense and KG> Kobe on defense so they are even." And I don't do it as "Kobe's defense is equal or close to KG because of his random all-d team selection or relative to his position."

I know that Garnett is flat out a top 10 defensive player ever and Kobe isn't really on that level at all. But I value great offense over great defense, and even though KG is a great offensive player, he simply isn't the constant offensive performer that 03 or regular prime Kobe is, nor can he emulate the big-time clutch abilities of Bryant (usually). IIRC, Kobe showed off some of that clutch ability in that Minny series. He brought LA back in gm 5 of the SA series, and LA would have won if Horry's 3 went down. Just a few examples from 03.

That's why I think prime Kobe is better than prime KG. This year, KG doesn't get any bonuses for significantly greater statistcal domination or team success or accolades. So....Kobe goes ahead of him on my list.

[bastillon]

I think Kobe is better because I value his offense over anything KG brings

is it observation type of thing or something actually supported by the numbers ?

But I value great offense over great defense, and even though KG is a great offensive player, he simply isn't the constant offensive performer that 03 or regular prime Kobe is, nor can he emulate the big-time clutch abilities of Bryant (usually).

does leading a team to top5 ranked offense alongside not-exactly-competent-SC mean something to you or is that one of these cases when you don't think you can be convinced ?

IIRC, Kobe showed off some of that clutch ability in that Minny series. He brought LA back in gm 5 of the SA series, and LA would have won if Horry's 3 went down. Just a few examples from 03.

does that outweigh KG's contributions the way he played that season ? even in the Minny series Garnett had some amazing games...