Shaq hasn't helped his team the last three seasons

[ronnymac2]

Shaq didn't help them in the Boston series.

He shouldn't have played as much as he did. Individually, he played okay. I don't think he helped them in this series. I actually think Z's jumper or Hickson's ability to be an aggressor/threat on the pick-n-roll is something that would have helped Cleveland more.

I'm so sure he would have helped them against Orlando. L.A., too, if they met up. But we'll never know now.

[JordansBulls]

Shaq didn't help them in the Boston series.

He shouldn't have played as much as he did. Individually, he played okay. I don't think he helped them in this series. I actually think Z's jumper or Hickson's ability to be an aggressor/threat on the pick-n-roll is something that would have helped Cleveland more.

I'm so sure he would have helped them against Orlando. L.A., too, if they met up. But we'll never know now.

They needed to speed up the game. When Hickson played the Cavs dominated. When Shaq played, the Celtics won. It happened the 1st game of year and the last game in Boston.

Remember the Celtics were dominating that one game in Boston and up at the half and Shaq got that thumb injury and then Cleveland dominated the 2nd half with no Shaq there.

[tsherkin]

They needed to speed up the game. When Hickson played the Cavs dominated. When Shaq played, the Celtics won. It happened the 1st game of year and the last game in Boston.

This isn't accurate. The Cavs roleplayers need to hit open shots. Time and again in the second half, Jamison and Mo Williams bricked open threes from the pocket and the wing. If they were hitting those, this game ends with the Cavs on top, but the 3 dried up and they couldn't get any offense from anyone else but James. Speeding the game up wouldn't help, they WERE running in the second half, but the Celtics were abandoning the offensive glass and getting back in transition. They had 3, 4 guys back every time the Cavs were pushing the ball.

[Sedale Threatt]

Shaq is the reason that the Cavs are going to get over the hump this season and win a championship.

WHATEVER YOU SAY, DUMBASS.

You aren't the only one bro. I drank the Koo-Aid, too. Not necessarily on Shaq, but the Cavs in general. I didn't think there was any way they could flame out again.

[Sedale Threatt]

I got criticized for making this case in multiple threads all year. Phoenix was better off without Shaq.

Cavs get bounced in second round. Shaq had a bad plus minus for the season. Cavs went 40-13 in the games he played but 19-3 in the games he didn't.

Suns are in Conference finals, after Shaq was replaced with Channing Frye.

Nothing against the Big Fella. You can make a great case had the best single season of all time, and he was almost a top 5 player from 93-06 which is insane.

But after that his box score stats have overstated his value the last few years, and I got tired of people raving about his season last year.

You're 100% correct. The results speak for themselves. Doesn't impact his legacy in the slightest. He was a phenomenal player for a long, long time -- much longer than I expected. He's still one of my favorite players ever. But again -- the results speak for themselves.

[sp6r=underrated]

I got criticized for making this case in multiple threads all year. Phoenix was better off without Shaq.

Cavs get bounced in second round. Shaq had a bad plus minus for the season. Cavs went 40-13 in the games he played but 19-3 in the games he didn't.

Suns are in Conference finals, after Shaq was replaced with Channing Frye.

Nothing against the Big Fella. You can make a great case had the best single season of all time, and he was almost a top 5 player from 93-06 which is insane.

But after that his box score stats have overstated his value the last few years, and I got tired of people raving about his season last year.

You're 100% correct. The results speak for themselves. Doesn't impact his legacy in the slightest. He was a phenomenal player for a long, long time -- much longer than I expected. He's still one of my favorite players ever. But again -- the results speak for themselves.

Honestly, after the POY threads were I've realized how wrong I am about everything, I needed this

[bastillon]

The weird thing about this is the Cavs vs Celtics went 7 when Boston was much better in 2008 and the Cavs much worse, now all of a sudden the Celtics win in 6 without the HCA while being much worse and the Cavs being much better.
But I've felt all along that the Cavs should have been playing Hickson at Center against Boston instead of Shaq.

now I know why you use poorly constructed statistical arguments or flat out words of somebody else. it's probably good for you not to proclaim any of your personal observation given that.

[bastillon]

They needed to speed up the game. When Hickson played the Cavs dominated. When Shaq played, the Celtics won. It happened the 1st game of year and the last game in Boston.

This isn't accurate. The Cavs roleplayers need to hit open shots. Time and again in the second half, Jamison and Mo Williams bricked open threes from the pocket and the wing. If they were hitting those, this game ends with the Cavs on top, but the 3 dried up and they couldn't get any offense from anyone else but James. Speeding the game up wouldn't help, they WERE running in the second half, but the Celtics were abandoning the offensive glass and getting back in transition. They had 3, 4 guys back every time the Cavs were pushing the ball.

Mo Williams easily outplayed LeBron in the first half so this isn't even relevant here. Cavs lost because James decided to make Rondo and Tony Allen better in transition and turned the ball over all game long. without his TOs Cavs would be in ~15 range for TOs, which is fine. Celtics ran in transition and that's on James. and easy looks ? I wonder when, I haven't seen them.

Shaq clearly didn't help his team win though, no question about that. he plays the worst p'n'r defense in the league and can't do anything against Perkins on offense. I love how Shaq's stats are stat-padded, they all came from dump offs after drives. 1 one 1 he was just using possessions and either turning the ball over or missing a shot. I wonder what his FG% was against Perkins on post-ups.

[lorak]

Mo Williams easily outplayed LeBron in the first half so this isn't even relevant here. Cavs lost because James decided to make Rondo and Tony Allen better in transition and turned the ball over all game long. without his TOs Cavs would be in ~15 range for TOs, which is fine. Celtics ran in transition and that's on James. and easy looks ? I wonder when, I haven't seen them.

So watch the game again

1 one 1 he was just using possessions and either turning the ball over or missing a shot. I wonder what his FG% was against Perkins on post-ups.

Really, really bad. I honestly don’t remember Shaq’s baskets against Perkins, I doubt he had any.

[microfib4thewin]

What I am intrigued by is where the hard nosed defense went. When Lebron literally had zero offensive support the Cavs were still able to finish better than expected because they can defend anyone. It was how they pushed the 06 Pistons and the 08 Celtics to 7 games and how they got to the Finals in 07. Ever since they became the favorite in the regular season that same defense is nowhere to be found. Even against the Hawks last year Lebron had to close out in the 4th because they keep losing leads. It really seem like a case of overconfidence over anything else that sent them to their demise. The logic of having bad defenders doesn't work because the Cavs never had great defenders to begin with outside of a washed up Larry Hughes.

Shaq is very low on my to-blame list, but I agree with sp6r that his on-court presence didn't help the Cavs. For any point that he managed to score in isolation he gave up just as much on the other end(KG in the first half). It doesn't help that he can't stay out of foul trouble either.

[jaypo]

Funny how you point to Shaq "giving up" points to KG. As I remember, Shaq kept KG out of the paing, something that nobody else could do. I also remember him chasing KG out to the 3pt line a couple of times, b/c KG couldnt' back him down. I.E.- he played KG better than anyone else on the Cav's team, and let's not forget that he was put on KG because KG was shredding them.

Let's look at how Perkins did against him, because apples to apples!!!! You can't blame Shaq for Rondo shredding the defense, because the guards need to be the ones to step up and not leave the bigs out to dry.

[bastillon]

Funny how you point to Shaq "giving up" points to KG. As I remember, Shaq kept KG out of the paing, something that nobody else could do. I also remember him chasing KG out to the 3pt line a couple of times, b/c KG couldnt' back him down. I.E.- he played KG better than anyone else on the Cav's team, and let's not forget that he was put on KG because KG was shredding them.

Let's look at how Perkins did against him, because apples to apples!!!! You can't blame Shaq for Rondo shredding the defense, because the guards need to be the ones to step up and not leave the bigs out to dry.

[Volcano]

It's pretty evident that Shaq has been a non-factor for a while now. The only time he'll have any real impact is against crappy and skinny bigs, like Bosh + Bargnani. Even then, they could probably do a sufficient defensive job on him at this point.

[Basileus777]

Most of the league doesn't matter. The Lakers and Magic are easily the two biggest(literally and figuratively) blockades to an NBA championship for the Cavs,

Ouch.

[Basileus777]

What I am intrigued by is where the hard nosed defense went. When Lebron literally had zero offensive support the Cavs were still able to finish better than expected because they can defend anyone. It was how they pushed the 06 Pistons and the 08 Celtics to 7 games and how they got to the Finals in 07. Ever since they became the favorite in the regular season that same defense is nowhere to be found. Even against the Hawks last year Lebron had to close out in the 4th because they keep losing leads. It really seem like a case of overconfidence over anything else that sent them to their demise. The logic of having bad defenders doesn't work because the Cavs never had great defenders to begin with outside of a washed up Larry Hughes.

Almost all of the players the Cavs brought in since then are offensively-minded players, ie Mo, Jamison, Hickson, Shaq. Other than Shaq all of those players are soft too. You can't have a frontcourt of Shaq, Jamison, Hickson, and Z and be a reliable defensive team.

The Cavs used to be a tough, gritty team with great chemistry (everyone knew their roles) that grinded out games with defense and rebounding. The present day Cavs are front-runners that don't play defense if shots aren't falling and the flow of the game is against them.

[WesWesley]

Because I'm leaving for work and don't have time, this is a placeholder post.

But it bears mention that Shaq and the team both had to adjust to one another, being as this is their FIRST year together. Chemistry is learned over time, not instantaneously, especially with a coach who isn't exactly an offensive savant.

I will post more later.

Say what you want but Shaq is struggling to dunk the ball at times.

He's so outta shape, the refs don't respect him anymore and he's got this i don't give a **** attitude.

[microfib4thewin]

You can't blame Shaq for Rondo shredding the defense, because the guards need to be the ones to step up and not leave the bigs out to dry.

Funny, I thought it was also the big's responsibility to clean up the guard's mistake when needed. Then again, Shaq is so incompetent at help defense I can't fault him for something he's completely incapable of doing.

I also think people are mistaken on sp6r's viewpoint. He didn't say Shaq hurt the Cavs, but Shaq was pretty much a neutral presence who neither helps nor hurts the team because what he can do and couldn't do cancels each other out.

[tsherkin]

Given his limited minutes and foul trouble, I'm inclined to agree that Shaq wasnt super-helpful to the Cavs in the playoffs. He didn't hurt them, but he wasn't a significant factor either way.

[bballcool34]

Funny how you point to Shaq "giving up" points to KG. As I remember, Shaq kept KG out of the paing, something that nobody else could do. I also remember him chasing KG out to the 3pt line a couple of times, b/c KG couldnt' back him down. I.E.- he played KG better than anyone else on the Cav's team, and let's not forget that he was put on KG because KG was shredding them.

Let's look at how Perkins did against him, because apples to apples!!!! You can't blame Shaq for Rondo shredding the defense, because the guards need to be the ones to step up and not leave the bigs out to dry.

Shaq hurts the team defense especially on the pick and roll and such...

BUT, he's always been a good man defender and Garnett tends to struggle with bigger, stronger players in the post...he couldn't get any ground on Shaq, and actually had to run around near the three point line once when Shaq was guarding him...watch when Dwight guards him this series, he'll have trouble getting easy looks/fadeaways on anything other than longer range jump shots...

That's not to bash Garnett- he's so dangerous even now because he can hit that long range jumper- but he struggles getting past/consistently creating good shots in the post against bigger guys...

[Mamba Venom]

He would be good off the bench filling that Zo role in 2006.