Retro POY '95-96 (Voting Complete)

[CellarDoor]

^Presumably you're projecting Hakeem at the 2 then?

[bastillon]

yeah, I don't really think he regressed that much from '95 when he was by far the best player on the planet. I've already shown how banged up the Rockets were and it was the reason why they didn't perform as you would expect from defending champs. nobody can overcome so many injuries. also, what impressed me about them is how they beat higher seed in the 1st Rd, and this series wasn't particularly close either. the only time the Lakers won, Dream fouled out with some Dwight-like BS fouls, otherwise this series was close to sweep. that's against a 53W team, when they were at least somewhat healthy (Drexler half of that series, Cassell too, but still). their depth just went to hell in Sonics series, because EVERYONE was injured. that happens hardly ever and isn't something I will hold against Olajuwon here.

for now I have:
MJ
Dream
Malone
Robinson
Pippen

I don't know where to put Shaq and Penny here.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm thinking 1. Jordan 2. Robinson, then deciding between Malone and Hakeem for 3/4, then 5th slot between Penny, Pippen, Payton.

One thing about Malone/Hakeem is that the MVP voters definitely sided with Hakeem. Hakeem gets 4th and 238 points on a 48 win team where he misses 10 games, Malone gets 7th and 85 points playing 82 games on a 55 win team. You get more votes with less wins and GP and the voters definitely prefer you. However Hakeem's domination the last 2 years combined with Karl's flameouts maybe had something to do with it.

[bastillon]

Robinson has no business being 2nd after that Jazz series. meltdown in the most important moment of the season, as usual.

[Dr Positivity]

bastillion - To you what's the difference between Robinson's series against Utah and Hakeem's against Seattle? Both were disappointing... I'd give the edge to Drob because I think he was doing more defensively at this point in his career. Younger Hakeem wouldn't have let Seattle drop 115+ both games at home. Plus while the rest of the series was just OK, in the game that really killed the Spurs (droppin Gm. 1 at home) Robinson put up 29/6/5 on .73 TS%, everyone else just sucked

[sp6r=underrated]

Yea, it should be Hakeem at number two instead of Robinson even though he was far worst in the RS and PS that year, because you know Hakeem raises his game when it counts. What a joke.

Since your killing Robinson for his 2nd round performance getting outplayed by Malone. Let's look at Hakeem's series vs Seattle and Kemp's performance in that series:

Code: Select all

PPG,   RPG,   APG,  BPG,  SPG,   TOV,  TS
18.25, 9.75,  4.25, 2.00, 1.25, 4.25, .525

Code: Select all

PPG,   RPG,   APG,  BPG,  SPG,   TOV,  TS
21.75, 13.75, 1.50, 2.25, 0.5, 4.25, .585

Hakeem got outplayed by Shawn Kemp. That is worse than getting outplayed by Malone.

Robinson was far better in the RS and in the first round of the PS than Hakeem and had a comparable 2nd round and yet Hakeem still gets elevated. The reason why Robinson spurs got to play an easy team in the first round was that he dominated the **** out of the RS and carried a mediocre squad to 59 wins. So you can't ignore first round production in comparing Robinson and Hakeem. Robinson > Hakeem 96 by any objective measurement. I can't imagine how you would the describe the 96 spurs if it was KG or Hakeem in Robinson plays. Actually I can.

at your anti-Hakeem bias claims when you come with the perspective that Hakeem was top 2 in a season when his PS play was inferior to the guy who was far better in the RS that year as well.

*prepared for wall of excuses. It is never Hakeem's fault*

[ronnymac2]

bastillion - To you what's the difference between Robinson's series against Utah and Hakeem's against Seattle? Both were disappointing... I'd give the edge to Drob because I think he was doing more defensively at this point in his career. Younger Hakeem wouldn't have let Seattle drop 115+ both games at home. Plus while the rest of the series was just OK, in the game that really killed the Spurs (droppin Gm. 1 at home) Robinson put up 29/6/5 on .73 TS%, everyone else just sucked

OK?? No, he played badly. You don't lose a series because you lost the first game.

With the series tied 1-1, he puts up 11/9. Shoots 4/10. Fine. Chalk it up to a bad game.

Then he goes and posts 11/4 in 24 minutes. He plays half the game and takes three shots. Has 4 rebounds and 3 turnovers and fouls out.

Then he has an okay game 5 (7/21 isn't too good, but he does do other things very well).

Then, in typical game 6 elimination game fashion, he drops 17/8.

How is that an ok series?

[sp6r=underrated]

And I'll add if by some odd chance Hakeem gets over Robinson in 96, as a protest vote, I am voting for Robinson and Shaq over Hakeem in 1995. It would be a total disgrace if he ends up number 2 in 95. He is far closer to not being top 5 than top 2.

[sp6r=underrated]

bastillion - To you what's the difference between Robinson's series against Utah and Hakeem's against Seattle? Both were disappointing... I'd give the edge to Drob because I think he was doing more defensively at this point in his career. Younger Hakeem wouldn't have let Seattle drop 115+ both games at home. Plus while the rest of the series was just OK, in the game that really killed the Spurs (droppin Gm. 1 at home) Robinson put up 29/6/5 on .73 TS%, everyone else just sucked

OK?? No, he played badly. You don't lose a series because you lost the first game.

With the series tied 1-1, he puts up 11/9. Shoots 4/10. Fine. Chalk it up to a bad game.

Then he goes and posts 11/4 in 24 minutes. He plays half the game and takes three shots. Has 4 rebounds and 3 turnovers and fouls out.

Then he has an okay game 5 (7/21 isn't too good, but he does do other things very well).

Then, in typical game 6 elimination game fashion, he drops 17/8.

How is that an ok series?

In comparison to Hakeem, the question isn't whether it was a bad series. Hakeem had to have had a far better PS than Robinson to pass him this year. Robinson actually had the better PS. Hakeem shouldn't be elevated based on his PS play in other seasons, during years he didn't play well in PS.

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah I'm seeing a trend of people looking to kill guys who have a rep for disappointing in the playoffs without applying the same standard across the board. With Hakeem people seem to be just saying "He was #1, looks about the same, so #2". I don't know how you put Hakeem at #2 in the regular season after missing significant time on <50 win team, and I don't know how he moves up after a playoff performance he has his full supporting cast from the previous year where his stats go down and his team gets swept.

[sp6r=underrated]

Olajuwon had a similar RS as Robinson, though David was obviously the superior, but the team impact in the RS and how the Rockets did without him (only winning 1 game), IMO it's Olajuwon for me anyways.

Baller

I love reading your posts, but it is insane to think Hakeem's RS was even close to Robinson

Stats: favor Robinson big way
Recognition: favors Robinson big way
team success: Robinson Spurs were far better in the RS that year than Hakeem's rockets. You can't play the supporting cast card either.

[sp6r=underrated]

Yeah I'm seeing a trend of people looking to kill guys who have a rep for disappointing in the playoffs without applying the same standard across the board. With Hakeem people seem to be just saying "He was #1, looks about the same, so #2". I don't know how you put Hakeem at #2 after missing significant time on <50 win team, and I don't know how he moves up after a playoff performance he has his full supporting cast from the previous year where his stats go down and his team gets swept.

It is a disgusting joke. A tragedy. Probably the worst vote since Bush > Kerry. Robinson was better in the PS than Hakeem and far better in the RS. Yet there are a lot of people who still are going to vote for Hakeem. No series has more out of proportion warped people's perception than the 95 WCF. If I could make any series in NBA history not happen and instead have had the ultimate winners defeat someone else, it would be that one.

[Baller 24]

Baller

I love reading your posts, but it is insane to think Hakeem's RS was even close to Robinson

Stats: favor Robinson big way
Recognition: favors Robinson big way
team success: Robinson Spurs were far better in the RS that year than Hakeem's rockets. You can't play the supporting cast card either.

Yeah, obviously. I was speaking from a box score standout, I stated that Robinson's is obviously better. Just noting that it stood-out from a box-score standpoint. 25/12/3 v 27/11/3. But yes, of course Robinson's RS definitely better than Olajuwon.

[Baller 24]

As I noted earlier, I've got Jordan and Robinson locked up as my top 2, Hardaway is making a STRONG case for me to pick him at 3, with Olajuwon and Payton fighting for 4 and 5 for me.

[ItsMillerTime]

Jordan and the Admiral are locks at the 1 and 2 for me. Penny, Payton, Malone, Pippen, and Hakeem are who im trying to decide between, unless I see a good argument for someone else

[ronnymac2]

bastillion - To you what's the difference between Robinson's series against Utah and Hakeem's against Seattle? Both were disappointing... I'd give the edge to Drob because I think he was doing more defensively at this point in his career. Younger Hakeem wouldn't have let Seattle drop 115+ both games at home. Plus while the rest of the series was just OK, in the game that really killed the Spurs (droppin Gm. 1 at home) Robinson put up 29/6/5 on .73 TS%, everyone else just sucked

OK?? No, he played badly. You don't lose a series because you lost the first game.

With the series tied 1-1, he puts up 11/9. Shoots 4/10. Fine. Chalk it up to a bad game.

Then he goes and posts 11/4 in 24 minutes. He plays half the game and takes three shots. Has 4 rebounds and 3 turnovers and fouls out.

Then he has an okay game 5 (7/21 isn't too good, but he does do other things very well).

Then, in typical game 6 elimination game fashion, he drops 17/8.

How is that an ok series?

In comparison to Hakeem, the question isn't whether it was a bad series. Hakeem had to have had a far better PS than Robinson to pass him this year. Robinson actually had the better PS. Hakeem shouldn't be elevated based on his PS play in other seasons, during years he didn't play well in PS.

I wasn't talking about Robinson's play relative to Olajuwon. Not yet anyway. I was just talking about Robinson.

This isn't about prior years either. If you or anybody else can answer this question, I'd appreciate it. What about David Robinson's game caused him to play so poorly in the big spot in 1996? What material facets of Robinson's game (skillset, mentality, etc.) caused Robinson in 1996 to play poorly as an individual against the Utah Jazz?

[Baller 24]

Personally, I think Penny is being overlooked, for about a 1/3rd of the season without Shaq the Magic went 20-8, with the following lineup:

N. Anderson ▪ H. Grant ▪ A. Hardaway ▪ J. Koncak ▪ D. Scott ---18-7 overall
N. Anderson ▪ A. Hardaway ▪ J. Koncak ▪ D. Royal ▪ D. Scott ---3-1 overall

Throughout this span they beat the following teams: (this is including starting the season out 18-4 without Shaq, and they beat the Bulls)

Fri, Nov 3, 1995 Cleveland Cavaliers
Mon, Nov 6, 1995 Washington Bullets
Wed, Nov 8, 1995 New Jersey Nets
Fri, Nov 10, 1995 @ Boston Celtics
Sat, Nov 11, 1995 Miami Heat
Tue, Nov 14, 1995 Chicago Bulls
Thu, Nov 16, 1995 Indiana Pacers
Mon, Nov 20, 1995 Golden State Warriors
Wed, Nov 22, 1995 Vancouver Grizzlies
Fri, Nov 24, 1995 @ Minnesota Timberwolves
Sat, Nov 25, 1995 @ Washington Bullets
Mon, Nov 27, 1995 Detroit Pistons
Thu, Nov 30, 1995 Dallas Mavericks
Tue, Dec 5, 1995 @ Los Angeles Clippers
Wed, Dec 6, 1995 @ Golden State Warriors
Fri, Dec 8, 1995 Charlotte Hornets
Tue, Dec 12, 1995@ New Jersey Nets
Fri, Dec 15, 1995 Utah Jazz
Tue, Jan 9, 1996 New Jersey Nets
Fri, Jan 12, 1996 Milwaukee Bucks

(Highlighted the playoff teams that season)

[An Unbiased Fan]

^
Penny will probably be #3 for me.

Sadly, the success he had without Shaq that year was the root cause of why friction between the two formed(from what I heard). For whatever reason, Shaq had to be THE man. Reminds me of another feud he had years later on.....

[Baller 24]

Yeah, I'm leaning towards 3 for me as well, and here's how he performed without Shaq in the 28 games (1/3rd of the season):

Code: Select all

25.1PPG 6.4APG 4.8RPG TSP 62%

Holly crap

[lorak]

Yeah I'm seeing a trend of people looking to kill guys who have a rep for disappointing in the playoffs without applying the same standard across the board. With Hakeem people seem to be just saying "He was #1, looks about the same, so #2". I don't know how you put Hakeem at #2 after missing significant time on <50 win team, and I don't know how he moves up after a playoff performance he has his full supporting cast from the previous year where his stats go down and his team gets swept.

It is a disgusting joke. A tragedy. Probably the worst vote since Bush > Kerry. Robinson was better in the PS than Hakeem and far better in the RS. Yet there are a lot of people who still are going to vote for Hakeem. No series has more out of proportion warped people's perception than the 95 WCF. If I could make any series in NBA history not happen and instead have had the ultimate winners defeat someone else, it would be that one.

+1

Baller, great post about Penny