Retro POY '95-96 (Voting Complete)

[semi-sentient]

I don't know if that's entirely fair.

I think it's perfectly fair to criticize them if we're going to ignore that Payton did an admirable job on the main driving forces (Jordan and Stockton) of the two best offenses in the league.

Yeah, there's a lot of other factors, but Payton's impact is being underrated here. I think guards can and do (do) plenty of damage out on the perimeter by disrupting the ability of opposing guards to effectively run their offense. Now I can't sit here and say with certainty that that's what Payton did on a constant basis because like everyone else, I simply don't remember every play or have the time to rewatch every game, but I do recall him being a fantastic defender whose impact was noticeable, and that's been reinforced by some of the video I've been able to rewatch.

[Baller 24]

I got swayed, I changed my vote after listening to some really strong arguments, Olajuwon is out for me.

[Sedale Threatt]

1. Michael.
2. Karl.
3. David.
4. Anfernee.
5. Gary.

[semi-sentient]

Now that I've had time to let things marinate in my dome, I might be putting too much stock into the post-season, particularly with GP over Malone. I'm thinking of switching those two out, and that's probably the right thing to do since Malone had a really nice RS (I can't get over his post-season efficiency though... that really blows). I have a real issue putting The Evangelist higher than Payton for his failures though. I'm also a bit disturbed by the gap in minutes played. Does anyone think it's a big deal that Robinson played 8 less minutes per game in the playoffs than Payton? That's almost an entire quarter...

Oh, and anyone have a problem with me adding Magic to my honorable mentions list... lol.

[ElGee]

Now that I've had time to let things marinate in my dome, I might be putting too much stock into the post-season, particularly with GP over Malone. I'm thinking of switching those two out, and that's probably the right thing to do since Malone had a really nice RS (I can't get over his post-season efficiency though... that really blows). I have a real issue putting The Evangelist higher than Payton for his failures though. I'm also a bit disturbed by the gap in minutes played. Does anyone think it's a big deal that Robinson played 8 less minutes per game in the playoffs than Payton? That's almost an entire quarter...

Oh, and anyone have a problem with me adding Magic to my honorable mentions list... lol.

G1 vs. Phoenix was a blowout (29 MP). G4 vs. Utah foul trouble (24 MP), although that's a negative on him. G6 against Utah he played 29 minutes and it was a blowout and he had 4 fouls...don't remember if that was a factor at all.

So his playoff minutes don't seem to be a big deal. Those last few games against Utah are problematic though...

[TMACFORMVP]

While I've toned down on my feelings for Hakeem even moreso than my edit yesterday afternoon, I feel the same arguments that are being used for D-Rob, can apply to Karl Malone as well. (Note: I meant in the difference between Hakeem and D-Rob, definitely not disputing Hakeem was better, because Robinson was definitely better in this particular season). Malone had an overall more dominant playoff run, including winning the head to head matchup against Robinson in the playoffs. The same way we punish Robinson in 95 (whether it's right or wrong), it's a similar scenario here.

But does this push Hakeem outside the top 5? Because the arguments that one uses for Robinson (with the defensive side of the ball) - can be used for Hakeem as well in a comparison against Penny. Granted Hakeem wasn't as good a defender, he was still good enough for it to be enough an advantage (especially when you're still doing 27 PPG on over 50% from the floor).

But regardless, I'm starting to feel I'd take Penny over Robinson. What he did without Shaq, and the impact he had in the regular season coupled with better post-season play with the crap Robinson put up in the second half of that Jazz series is certainly more impressive.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Karl Malone
3. Penny Hardaway
4. David Robinson

That 5th spot is either Hakeem, or Payton. I think Hakeem is the better player, I'll get that out of the way. I think people are definitely overstating the "decline," in his game from the previous season. Admittedly he wasn't as good defensively as seasons past, but he was still a dominant force on that end, and the same old offensively. But Payton represents an interesting case. He was better in the playoffs, fared far more team success, and himself was special defensively and offensively (in this case, the DPOY).

Ultimately how I punished D-Rob for his playoff production, it would seem contradictory if I pretended Hakeem put a valiant effort. The bottom line was that he didn't, while Payton was very good. As of now, my 5th spot will go to Payton, but at this point I can still be swayed for all the positions I've selected.

5. Gary Payton

[JordansBulls]

1995-1996

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was Tied in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs and WS per 48 minutes, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.

2. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team, 3rd in Season PER and 3rd in Win Shares. Outplayed Robinson in the head to head series when the Spurs were favorite.

3. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Tied in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

* - Got Upset in Round 2 and only averaged 19.33 ppg in the series vs the Jazz on 48% FG.

4. Hakeem - Finished 4th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 2nd Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

5. Gary Payton (DPOY, 1st Team All Defense, 2nd Team All NBA, 3rd in playoff Win Shares)

HM: Penny Hardaway - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, All NBA 1st Team, 4th in season Win Shares, Scottie Pippen - All NBA 1st Team and All NBA 1st Defensive team, finished 5th in MVP voting, and 4th in playoff WS, Stockton, Shaq, Grant Hill, Shawn Kemp


Edit: I updated my rankings.

[ElGee]

Btw, I'm not sure if anyone is overly down on Malone's postseason because of his TS%, but a lot of that was FT%. (For some reason, FT defense was great in the playoff's that year.)

If he makes FT's at his career playoff average, his TS% would jump to 52.9% (as well as his scoring average increasing 1.7 ppg). I thought he played great in G5 and G6 vs. Seattle against elimination. 29-15 in G5 and 32-10-7 in G6 with 4 steals. Solid game 7 outside of FT shooting.

Those FT's do count though - if he made them perhaps Utah wins G4 or G7. Incredibly close series. I thought he made up for with passing/offense created and low turnovers.

[drza]

Leaning towards Jordan, Robinson, Penny, Olajuwon and Malone in that order. I hope to come back and spend some more time posting (I've already read the thread), but these last 2 weeks have been a beast and I don't know that I'll make it back. If I don't, consider this post my vote. If I do, I'll write it up more formally.

[shawngoat23]

1. Michael Jordan
2. David Robinson
3. Penny Hardaway

Not sure how to go here at this point. Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, and Scottie Pippen are on my short list. Some of you might be surprised to see Kemp, but he was a legitimate stud this year and brought it in the post-season.

If I don't change my mind by the time voting closes, I'm going with:

4. Karl Malone
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

[mysticbb]

Of course Jordan did miss some open shots, but all players do.

He missed more than usual, that is the point. It looked like he wasn't quite in the same rhythm especially in game 6. Distracted by Payton? Probably. But I for myself think it had more to do Jordan not being "Jordan" in that game.

That doesn't mean that Payton didn't still play very good defense on him.

For sure, I didn't deny that. He played really good defense against Jordan.

I've only watched bits and pieces of that series recently, so from what I recall they put Payton more on Jordan after game 2. In game 4, I believe he guarded him almost exclusively and they were actually matched up with each other since Harper was hurting.

More, yes, exclusively, no. Jordan played very well off screens and in those cases the Sonics switched. It also was the case that Hawkins and Schrempf were on Jordan for a couple of possessions in each of those games.

You sure about that?

Uh, yes, I'm sure about that, but I'm still wrong. I thought we were talking about the finals. For the regular season you are obviously right. Sorry for that.

Just out of curiosity, are there any box scores available for Jordan's post-season games against the Bad Boy Pistons of the late 80's? I've always been curious as to what Jordan's numbers looked like against them in comparison to the others, particularly when they were at their peak defensively.

No complete boxscores. But some numbers for the series in 1988, 1989 and 1990.

1988 - 27.4/8.8/4.6
1989 - 29.7/5.5/6.5
1990 - 32.1/7.1/6.3

1991 - 29.8/5.2/7 on 64.6 ts%

The 1989 series is somewhat covered by youtube.

Example: Superb game by Jordan (Game 3):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bQ9E0G05TY


Regular season game in April, 1988, Jordan scored 59 points.

1st part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk5mUhQncfI

He did play pretty good against the Knicks in 1992 when they became a good defensive team, but his series against them in 1993 consisted of 2 great games with a couple of stinkers and mediocre (at best) performances mixed in. He shot pretty poorly in that series (outside of that 50+ point game), but he does get somewhat of a break for doing other things well.

That is what Jordan usually did. In games in which he was off with his shot, he usually tried to get to the line more often to still put some points on the board. He also was able to increase his defensive intensity in those cases, because he spent less energy over the course of the game on offense. Obviously Jordan had also a couple of bad games, he wasn't flawless, but he for sure gave me the impression that more often than not he was able to make the right decision how he should act in a game. When he was off with his shot, he didn't force bad shots, he just tried different things and increased his passing game. Jordan was very good at reading the defense and determining which opportunities they give him. Imho Jordan was the best decision maker in the game, maybe Bird was close, but both were ahead of Magic, who tended to "overpassing" it from time to time.

[An Unbiased Fan]

#1 MJ - Leadership on & off the court was great. MVP, All-NBA/All-D 1st, Finals MVP. Best RS & PS player, and led team to historic 72 win season.

#2 DRob - Stellar RS & PS performances. All-NBA/All-D 1st. Would be #1 most years.

#3 Penny - Oh what could have been. 96' Penny was one of the most versatile players I have ever seen. All-NBA 1st, and showed great on court leadership with Shaq out and in the playoffs.

#4 Payton - This was when he was the "glove". His smothering defense is greatly underappreciated by those who didn't see him play in this era. DPOY, All-D 1st, and led Seatle to 64 wins.

#5 Malone - Solid year, All-NBA 1st, good PS. Not the defender yet that he was in 97', but still a one of the best in 96'.

[kaima]

#2 DRob - Stellar RS & PS performances. All-NBA/All-D 1st. Would be #1 most years.

What?!??!!!

#5 Malone - Solid year, All-NBA 1st, good PS.

So Malone had a worse post-season than Robinson?

Are you sure you're voting in the right thread?

Not the defender yet that he was in 97',

Then what does that say for Robinson, who was again on the receiving end of a beating on both sides of the ball from Malone.

Your descriptions make no sense when contrasted between these players.

[kaima]

1995-1996

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was Tied in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs and WS per 48 minutes, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.


2. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Tied in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

* - Got Upset in Round 2 and only averaged 19.33 ppg in the series vs the Jazz on 48% FG.


3. Hakeem - Finished 4th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 2nd Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

4. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team, 3rd in Season PER and 3rd in Win Shares.

JordansBulls, you made the point in other threads that Malone's superior regular season(s), shouldn't place Malone over Jordan because of how they each played in the Finals, whether in 97 or 98.

By that same standard, how can Malone rank behind Robinson, a player he treated like a stuck pig in a matchup where the two guarded each other?

I just don't know if the argument between players and threads is kosher.

And how do you figure that Malone was worse than Hakeem?

Leaning towards Jordan, Robinson, Penny, Olajuwon and Malone in that order. I hope to come back and spend some more time posting (I've already read the thread), but these last 2 weeks have been a beast and I don't know that I'll make it back. If I don't, consider this post my vote. If I do, I'll write it up more formally.

From any type of micro to macro analysis, I find it really hard to figure how Malone comes in behind both Hakeem and Robinson.

[kaima]

Stockton had an injury that he probably shouldn't have even played with.

And it showed against Seattle.

That's a fair point, but Stockton did show up in a big way in game 7 whereas Malone went AWOL.

Granted.

But Malone did the heavy-lifting, arguably throughout the playoffs, to get the Jazz to that point.

If Stockton, no matter the injury, plays like himself earlier, the series could have been tilted. As it was, I was impressed with Malone's overall series performance, wherein he was the best player on the floor.

That just illutrates the importance of a guy like Stockton.

Yes and no. Malone got them to a game 7 with Stockton playing terribly for most of the series.

Also, Hornacek played extremely well in that series, so it's not like Malone was playing 1 on 5.

Hornacek was the piece that made Utah into a legit title contender.

So I wouldn't disagree with you, needless (and heedless of redundancy) to say.

Code: Select all

  Malone: 27.0 PTS (.501 TS%), 11.6 REB, 5.1 AST
Hornacek: 20.3 PTS (.639 TS%),  3.7 REB, 3.7 AST
Stockton:  9.9 PTS (.452 TS%),  2.9 REB, 7.7 AST

Interesting to note that Hornacek wasn't too hot in game 7 himself, making 3 of 10 shots and scoring less than half what his average was coming into that game.

I do find it interesting that Stockton is noted as second-rate consistently on this site, as well as the undue hype of Payton demolishing him (it would be due, if Stockton wasn't playing with a near-useless arm), but when it comes time to question or attack Malone, suddenly Stockton was a basketball-god-made-flesh who created a superstar named Karl Malone.

For the record, I've always liked Stockton and consider him one of the best PG's ever.

In that sense, I think Malone's series was quite impressive overall, in that the Jazz pushed the Sonics with only one superstar playing at a high level.

It's similar in a playoff context to what Penny is being praised for (rightfully) in regards to regular season performance.

Granted, not a perfect parallel, but I think it speaks well of Malone that he could push the Sonics, a team that won 64 games with a young core of stars in their prime, with Jeff Hornacek as his main complement.

Or at the very least, even when playing as badly as he did in the Sonics series, he's supposed to be more than enough help to get to the Finals. Kind of ridiculous.

No, but what about the contribution of Hornacek? His numbers were pretty insane.

Hornacek was great, within the system and as a second option.

And Malone was dominant in that series.

What always strikes me, as well, was Malone's anger/amusement over the fact that Seattle knew better than to have Kemp guard him.

[JordansBulls]

1995-1996

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was Tied in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs and WS per 48 minutes, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.


2. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Tied in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

* - Got Upset in Round 2 and only averaged 19.33 ppg in the series vs the Jazz on 48% FG.


3. Hakeem - Finished 4th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 2nd Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

4. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team, 3rd in Season PER and 3rd in Win Shares.

JordansBulls, you made the point in other threads that Malone's superior regular season(s), shouldn't place Malone over Jordan because of how they each played in the Finals, whether in 97 or 98.

By that same standard, how can Malone rank behind Robinson, a player he treated like a stuck pig in a matchup where the two guarded each other?

I just don't know if the argument between players and threads is kosher.

And how do you figure that Malone was worse than Hakeem?

Their is a difference in voting the #1 guy in a thread vs #2-5.

In 1996, Malone didn't have better numbers, nor did he win the title over Robinson. Also he wasn't All NBA and Defense like Hakeem and Robinson but also he didn't finish top 5 in MVP voting to overtake them.
Also Drob still had a higher PER in the playoffs and WS/Per48 minutes over Malone.
Not only that but Jeff Hornecek lead the Jazz in WS that postseason.

[kaima]

Re: Drob…One of the big problems with his postseason play that’s getting almost no mention here is defense. As noted, Robinson put up good numbers in the playoffs…they were just lower than his RS output. But the problem was he got outplayed, often greatly, by opposing frontcourt players. Since one of David Robinson’s key strengths is supposedly his D, his failures on that end in the playoffs greatly increase the dropoff from regular to postseason. People are talking about Jordan having two off shooting nights in the final three games of the finals when being guarded by Payton. Isn’t is suspicious that Jordan suddenly had two off games out of three...compared to Malone and Hakeem in 1994, 1995, and 1996…who had a total of three off games out of 15? Where’s the D, David?

So if David Robinson averages 21.1 points and 10.1 boards a game on 44.8% shooting, he’s playing well…but not as well as he should. And that’s on offense,. If the opposing frontcourt player who is also an MVP candidate is averaging 30.1 and 11.3 and shooting over 50%, Robinson’s dropoff is greater than the offensive numbers show. And that’s how David Robinson did and how Malone and Hakeem did in their playoff matchups in 1994, 1995, and 1996.

I think you took Occam's razor to my argument, and explicated the defensive question which I was a bit remiss in doing.

To me Robinson's fundamental flaws were just that: he relied far too much on athleticism on both sides of the ball, and guys more fundamentally gifted, both offensively and defensively, exposed him when matchups were keyed-in, as is inherent to playoff series.

Looking at his play against Malone, a or the parallel line of failure was Robinson's mental frailty. It was like a boy against UFC testosterone pumper when the two faced off: Malone was looking to initiate contact, while David looked like he wanted to run while standing still and taking it.

[kaima]

1995-1996

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Was Tied in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Led in Win Shares in the Playoffs and WS per 48 minutes, Was 4th in Playoff PER, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.


2. David Robinson - Finished 2nd in MVP Voting, Tied in PER and 2nd in WS on the season. 1st Team All NBA And Defense.

* - Got Upset in Round 2 and only averaged 19.33 ppg in the series vs the Jazz on 48% FG.


3. Hakeem - Finished 4th in MVP voting, ALL NBA 2nd Team and 2nd team Defense (3rd in WS in the playoffs)

4. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team, 3rd in Season PER and 3rd in Win Shares.

JordansBulls, you made the point in other threads that Malone's superior regular season(s), shouldn't place Malone over Jordan because of how they each played in the Finals, whether in 97 or 98.

By that same standard, how can Malone rank behind Robinson, a player he treated like a stuck pig in a matchup where the two guarded each other?

I just don't know if the argument between players and threads is kosher.

And how do you figure that Malone was worse than Hakeem?

Their is a difference in voting the #1 guy in a thread vs #2-5.

In 1996, Malone didn't have better numbers, nor did he win the title over Robinson.

Well, he certainly had better numbers against Robinson in their series.

If we're talking about regular seasons, then the point returns to your own standards as regards prior regular seasons versus post-seasons.

That's the the central piece of your argument against Malone v. Jordan (which I agree with).

Further, it should be noted that this matchup-as-a-measurement-of-worth standard works far better with Malone and Robinson than Malone and Jordan because the former guarded each other and played far more similar roles for their teams on a one to one basis.

Also he wasn't All NBA and Defense like Hakeem and Robinson but also he didn't finish top 5 in MVP voting to overtake them

And yet Malone played better defense than Robinson in their matchup.

Malone's post defense was often underrated.

If this is a roundup of season awards, then by definition Robinson's post-season doesn't matter.

Also Drob still had a higher PER in the playoffs and WS/Per48 minutes over Malone.

I'll trust my own lying eyes. Malone was better than Robinson in the playoffs.

And Robinson got booted yet again because of that very factor.

Maybe advanced metrics can make Robinson's games of 11, 11 and 17 points against Malone's defense a matchup win for him over the guy, again Malone, that never scored less than 22 in the series.

That's not the greatest of compliments to those measurements.

And further, beating up on Phoenix was quite clearly different from playing Utah. The very fact that Robinson folded so pathetically against Malone, then directly leading to his team again going home early, is a major problem when arguing that Robinson was better or had the superior season.

He again allowed a star post presence to badly outplay him.

Not only that but Jeff Hornecek lead the Jazz in WS that postseason.

I don't think that helps your argument.

[JordansBulls]

Well, he certainly had better numbers against Robinson in their series.

Yes he did, I acknowledged that. But Robinson still had better playoff numbers than Malone. Higher PER, and better WS/48 minutes.

If we're talking about regular seasons, then the point returns to your own standards as regards prior regular seasons versus post-seasons.

That's the the central piece of your argument against Malone v. Jordan (which I agree with).

Big difference. Robinson was 2nd in MVP voting while Malone was 7th. It wasn't like he was top 3-4 in MVP voting.

And yet Malone played better defense than Robinson in their matchup.

Malone's post defense was often underrated.

If this is a roundup of season awards, then by definition Robinson's post-season doesn't matter.

Didn't say Malone wasn't a good defender, I said both Robinson and Hakeem made both all nba and all defense teams.

I'll trust my own lying eyes. Malone was better than Robinson in the playoffs.

He was better in the series head to head, I completely agree.

And Robinson got booted yet again because of that very factor.

I don't think that helps your argument.

Yes it shows Hornecek produced more so than Malone for the Jazz success that Postseason.

I think the difficult thing here is how to measure Malone. I mean finishing 7th in MVP voting makes it kinda difficult to rank someone #2 in a season. If he were #4 or better I probably would have done so.

What is your argument here? Are you saying Malone should have been #2?

I actually thought about putting Payton #2 here.

[kaima]

Well, he certainly had better numbers against Robinson in their series.

Yes he did, I acknowledged that. But Robinson still had better playoff numbers than Malone. Higher PER, and better WS/48 minutes.

So, does this mean that you conclude that Robinson played better, and that he was the better player in the Jazz/Spurs series, or simply that, by virtue of these aggregates, he must be placed over Malone?

If we're talking about regular seasons, then the point returns to your own standards as regards prior regular seasons versus post-seasons.

That's the the central piece of your argument against Malone v. Jordan (which I agree with).

Big difference. Robinson was 2nd in MVP voting while Malone was 7th. It wasn't like he was top 3-4 in MVP voting.

So, is your voting pattern primarily based on counting up awards shares?

Further, if you're big on matchups defining value, the Robinson/Malone beatdown is a more logical exploration and exclamation as far as standard and point.

That is, on a logical basis.

And yet Malone played better defense than Robinson in their matchup.

Malone's post defense was often underrated.

If this is a roundup of season awards, then by definition Robinson's post-season doesn't matter.

Didn't say Malone wasn't a good defender, I said both Robinson and Hakeem made both all nba and all defense teams.

See the bold.

I'll trust my own lying eyes. Malone was better than Robinson in the playoffs.

He was better in the series head to head, I completely agree.

And considering this directly lead to SA's ouster, I think that's a rather big deal.

If Malone having a worse Finals than Jordan knocks him down to 2 in other seasons, why shouldn't Malone's head to head play against Robinson carry similar weight?

I don't think that helps your argument.

Yes it shows Hornecek produced more so than Malone for the Jazz success that Postseason.

Which shows the measurement has serious flaws.

Kind of my point.

The measurement is not placing a fair value on Malone demolishing the guy you think was the second best player in the league, nor does it take into account what Malone's presence did for Hornacek's numbers.

The system Utah ran was perfect for Horny. He was perfect within it. But it was DOA without Malone at the center of it.

If you truly believe that Malone contributed so little to Utah's post-season success, then he shouldn't be in your top 10, let alone 5.

I think the difficult thing here is how to measure Malone. I mean finishing 7th in MVP voting makes it kinda difficult to rank someone #2 in a season. If he were #4 or better I probably would have done so.

So this all comes down to award shares, explicitly.

And there's an interesting clash: you value WS and PER, yet they don't agree with the MVP vote.

Bit of a problem.

According to WS and PER in the regular season, Malone should have been number 3 in MVP votes.

Something's got to give.

What is your argument here? Are you saying Malone should have been #2?

Considering what he did to your number 2 in the playoffs, and his overall run in that post-season? Yes.

And I really don't see the argument for Olajuwon over Malone.