Moderators: Rich Rane, NyCeEvO
vincecarter4pres wrote:The kid couldn't read a book of matches though.
It's got to be a little concerning, no?
)
jerseyjac wrote:enetric wrote:jerseyjac wrote:I spun it that way for a reason..I think the best comparison is a bigger Zach Randolph, from the weight/getting into NBA shape to the so called attitude to the type of player they are...
When u dislike a player u tend to go off the deep end w/ exaggeration...big baby is phenomenal shape...dwayne, curry...come on...u think he has no skill, fine, but u haven't even touched on his game...or potential to be a player in this league...but have gone overboard a bit w/ cousins potential to suck...
U wanna pass on him because of the red flags, I agree, in the other thread I stated favors is my guy=low risk, high reward...
Wes johnson and others monroe, wake forest kid, all might get picked before demarcus...still think people are sleeping on him...
I had a feeling the way I worded all of that it was going to irk you.Thought about editing it...then I said screw it...you know what I meant! And if not, I would clarify it later.
OK...first off I do NOT hate Cousins. And I absolutely DO think he is talented. I think he is the most NBA ready player in the draft. Having said that...most of the time...this is the opposite of upside. VC4pres said it and I agree. If he wasn't such a slob...first pick of the draft. But he is NOT in NBA shape...and there are comments all over the place about attitude and NOT being coachable. These younger knuckleheads just say Derrick Coleman....but that's bush. DC was an elite NCAA athlete. A stud...and possibly the greatest rebounder in college history. His hoops IQ was off the charts (Chuck Daly's words) And his level of play was 20-11 without even trying. He made it look easy.
He could pas. He could shoot from 3 and he could dribble end to end. He could run an offense back to the basket or facing up. This kid isn't that. He has great footwork. He is BIG. But I don't see his body type game, or attitude for the work he needs to do as being an upside guy is all. This kid needs to work his ass off just to be worthy of 25 minutes a night in the NBA...just to be able to stay on a court without needing an oxygen tank 25 minutes per. DC needed to want to go from Zo CWEB level to KG/TD level. And he DIDN'T WANT IT. That made people disgusted enough to simply write him off despite 8 or so quality years in the league with an other 6 as a support player.
I see this kid having he issues Curry has. And Curry was elite low post big man. ELITE. He just sucked at everything else and never got himself into NBA condition.
I cant find an argument that says...because he is big and because he has some good skills at the college level that this kid can or will suddenly listen to coaches about everything from hustling on D to, positioning to weight loss. I think his upside could be severely limited...because I think HE will limit it. Now if he wants it? If he isn't that kid that scouts routinely say "would take plays off and simply not run down the other end to play any D and then make a couple of great plays"...presumeably after he caught his breath...then great. But you know that if he tries that in the NBA...he will be in a suit the next game.
I just happen to not want the aggravation and as tit happens we have a great center who lacks in his ability to step out on quick 4's. Seems easy to me. Take whoever 76ers don't take and let someone else mess around with the big magubu out of shape destined to be an NBA center...if at all guy.
And that's pretty much what I was trying to say...
Fair enough E
On EspnU, they were talking about all the questions they ask prospects...GMs only wish they could gauge a player's determination and commitment to the game...Like you said you gotta want it...DC chose burgers over basketball mid way through his career, but had the potential to become one of the great PFs (very curious if he would use injuries as an excuse)..I personally feel he disrespected both his career and the sport of basketball...thats how good he could of been...
treiz wrote:vincecarter4pres wrote:The kid couldn't read a book of matches though.
It's got to be a little concerning, no?
Wasn't Amare like that? I think as long as they're coachable and have a good work-ethic, intelligence shouldn't matter that much. It's not like he's "DUH" stupid.
(In all fairness though, in the recent NFL draft I wanted Myron Rolle and Toby Gerhart just because of their intelligence
SpeedyG wrote:I'm glad E posted the link on the guys that had weight concerns coming into the league, since I was wondering and trying to think of examples of guys who overcame weight issues and fulfilled their potentials. This is my concern with Cousins. If it was just weight issues, fine. If it was just attitude concerns, OK. But having both is a bad, bad, combination. But like I said, I tried to think of high draft picks, both in the NFL and NBA, that came in with character concerns and lived up to they potential and can't really think of any. I think one thing we fail to realize is just how easy it is for these NBA players to gain weight. They play 82 games per season (and for a rookie, this is a big jump from the number of games they play in college), plus Summer League plus Pre-season + practice and gym work all season long.
That is a lot of physical activity, and these guys need to eat to have the energy to be able to last the entire season. Wing players usually don't keep the weight they gain in-season, because they run and move constantly. But big men don't run as much as these guys. Most rookies bulk up and get stronger when they get to the NBA. I can't think of many (if any) examples of guys who slimmed down from their rookie year. If a big man increases his eating input but doesn't burn it off, it is quite easy for the lbs to start adding up.
Shaq was not in the best shape coming in, but we saw how he ballooned past 300 quickly. Same with Eddy Curry. Just look at Shawn Kemp. The guy was an elite athlete. An injury here, laziness there and the guy can barely get off the floor.
I think that is the biggest concern with Cousins. The size, feet, and athleticism is there. The skills offensively are definitely there. I just am not sure he has the maturity and discipline to put it all together.
enetric wrote:jerseyjac wrote:enetric wrote:I had a feeling the way I worded all of that it was going to irk you.
OK...first off I do NOT hate Cousins. And I absolutely DO think he is talented. I think he is the most NBA ready player in the draft. Having said that...most of the time...this is the opposite of upside. VC4pres said it and I agree. If he wasn't such a slob...first pick of the draft. But he is NOT in NBA shape...and there are comments all over the place about attitude and NOT being coachable. These younger knuckleheads just say Derrick Coleman....but that's bush. DC was an elite NCAA athlete. A stud...and possibly the greatest rebounder in college history. His hoops IQ was off the charts (Chuck Daly's words) And his level of play was 20-11 without even trying. He made it look easy.
He could pas. He could shoot from 3 and he could dribble end to end. He could run an offense back to the basket or facing up. This kid isn't that. He has great footwork. He is BIG. But I don't see his body type game, or attitude for the work he needs to do as being an upside guy is all. This kid needs to work his ass off just to be worthy of 25 minutes a night in the NBA...just to be able to stay on a court without needing an oxygen tank 25 minutes per. DC needed to want to go from Zo CWEB level to KG/TD level. And he DIDN'T WANT IT. That made people disgusted enough to simply write him off despite 8 or so quality years in the league with an other 6 as a support player.
I see this kid having he issues Curry has. And Curry was elite low post big man. ELITE. He just sucked at everything else and never got himself into NBA condition.
I cant find an argument that says...because he is big and because he has some good skills at the college level that this kid can or will suddenly listen to coaches about everything from hustling on D to, positioning to weight loss. I think his upside could be severely limited...because I think HE will limit it. Now if he wants it? If he isn't that kid that scouts routinely say "would take plays off and simply not run down the other end to play any D and then make a couple of great plays"...presumeably after he caught his breath...then great. But you know that if he tries that in the NBA...he will be in a suit the next game.
I just happen to not want the aggravation and as tit happens we have a great center who lacks in his ability to step out on quick 4's. Seems easy to me. Take whoever 76ers don't take and let someone else mess around with the big magubu out of shape destined to be an NBA center...if at all guy.
And that's pretty much what I was trying to say...
Fair enough E
On EspnU, they were talking about all the questions they ask prospects...GMs only wish they could gauge a player's determination and commitment to the game...Like you said you gotta want it...DC chose burgers over basketball mid way through his career, but had the potential to become one of the great PFs (very curious if he would use injuries as an excuse)..I personally feel he disrespected both his career and the sport of basketball...thats how good he could of been...
I have to say...and feel free to rip me for DC bias...no problem. But dont forget there is one thing I can relate to with DC. Having a heart ailment. I can tell you...not an excuse when you are on the meds he was on. He was absolutely NOT able to keep himsel in NBA shape mid way through is career from the meds and condition he had. No way. I eat just fine...and have slowly become a wide body sloth since my heart surgery. Its rough man. People dismissed his hearet condition as having no heart as an athlete. It really wasnt fair in my opinion. But at that stage he had more critics than supporters so no one was going o cry over misrepresenting a guy fans were taught to hate. He is the poster boy for bad reputations and failed first overall picks. And in reality he had a fine career. Better than Larry Johnson who was remembered as a great player and his injuries was always accepted beause he was so popular. Just my two cents on DC.
As for wanting it...yeah...its tough. These guys are coached as far as what to say. If Philly is so on the fence about the pick...I wonder if they would take Yi and #3 to simply flip it...get a third team in if they have to send out matching salary...throw in #27 if he helps get it done. Cap room created, possibly the best talent in the draft acquired. Move Humphries, have room for the second max guy? What do you think JJ?
enetric wrote:SpeedyG wrote:I'm glad E posted the link on the guys that had weight concerns coming into the league, since I was wondering and trying to think of examples of guys who overcame weight issues and fulfilled their potentials. This is my concern with Cousins. If it was just weight issues, fine. If it was just attitude concerns, OK. But having both is a bad, bad, combination. But like I said, I tried to think of high draft picks, both in the NFL and NBA, that came in with character concerns and lived up to they potential and can't really think of any. I think one thing we fail to realize is just how easy it is for these NBA players to gain weight. They play 82 games per season (and for a rookie, this is a big jump from the number of games they play in college), plus Summer League plus Pre-season + practice and gym work all season long.
That is a lot of physical activity, and these guys need to eat to have the energy to be able to last the entire season. Wing players usually don't keep the weight they gain in-season, because they run and move constantly. But big men don't run as much as these guys. Most rookies bulk up and get stronger when they get to the NBA. I can't think of many (if any) examples of guys who slimmed down from their rookie year. If a big man increases his eating input but doesn't burn it off, it is quite easy for the lbs to start adding up.
Shaq was not in the best shape coming in, but we saw how he ballooned past 300 quickly. Same with Eddy Curry. Just look at Shawn Kemp. The guy was an elite athlete. An injury here, laziness there and the guy can barely get off the floor.
I think that is the biggest concern with Cousins. The size, feet, and athleticism is there. The skills offensively are definitely there. I just am not sure he has the maturity and discipline to put it all together.
I didnt speak to Shaq although he was on the list because lets face it...Shaq is special. For all the talk is Kobe MJ crap...the best NBA player to be dafted since MJ Is Shaq. The guy was quick for his size. Had insane court vision. ANd he wasnt just strong for college he was a force from day one phyisically in the NBA. I want to see the weight lifting numbers which werent posted as of yesterday. I want to see how Cousins measured up. I am just not of the mindset that this kid is Shaq daddy strong. And when Shaq got huge....it hurt him health wise....but he was chiseled when he was big. NOt seeing that with Cousins.
NBA DRAFT COMBINE MEASUREMENTS
Format is as follows: No step vert – Max vert – Bench press (185 pounds) – Lane agility – 3/4 court sprint
Helped Stock
Derrick Favors: 31.5 – 35.5 – 14 – 11.74 – 3.25
Favors’ stock has skyrocketed since the combine. Going in, Favors was looked at as the default No. 3 pick, but his numbers resemble that of Dwight Howard when he came out in 2004. Favors has a higher no step vertical and is much stronger than Dwight (14 vs. Dwight’s 7 in the bench press) at this stage of his career. His numbers were so impressive, that rumors have begun to circulate that the Sixers might even take him at No. 2 over Evan Turner.
Luke Babbitt: 29.5 – 37.5 – 15 – 10.98 – 3.4
Babbitt is a guy whose athleticism has been questioned, but after recording a 37.5-inch max vertical leap, we found out that Luke has some bounce. Babbitt is not the greatest athlete by any means, but if you watch some game footage on him, you can see he definitely is a decent athlete.
Wesley Johnson: 32.0 – 37.0 – 16 – 11.43 – 3.14
Johnson raised a ton of eyebrows when he did 16 reps (of 185 pounds) on the bench press. With size, strength and athleticism, scouts are now moving Johnson up in the elite class – even comparing his numbers to Turner.
Hurt Stock
Cole Aldrich: 23.0 – 28.0 – 10 – 11.48 – 3.35
Aldrich was doomed once he measured in at 6-9 without shoes. His size was supposed to be a plus for him, and now for that to flip and become a negative is devastating. We knew that Aldrich wasn’t the most athletic big guy, but he seemed glued to the court as his max vertical was only 28 inches and he only did 10 reps on the bench.
DeMarcus Cousins: 23.5 – 27.5 – N/A – 11.4 – 3.55
Cousins started off on the wrong foot as he measured in with 16 percent body fat. His vertical was worse then Aldrich, as his max vertical was 27.5 inches. Also, Cousins declined to do the bench press because “he doesn’t lift weights.” But with all that being said, Cousins is not a raw athlete. What he is, is a very skilled big man that could make an immediate impact next year. Nonetheless, questions will continue to circulate about his work ethic and maturity.
Devin Ebanks: 23.5 – 32.- 0 6 – 11.69 – 3.44
Ebanks showed his size is legit as he measure in at 6-7 without shoes, but what most believed was Ebanks greatest strength – his athleticism – may not be the case. He measured in relatively slow or average at most of the speed drills, showing that he may not be as athletic as originally thought.
Preludepunk27 wrote:But looking at it, Wes Johnson's measurements are nuts. Strong, a great scorer with 3pt range and a huge wing span.
demens wrote:I think the 1st portion of measurement (height, wingspan) is more important then this. One of the ESPN insider guys recently wrote how he doesn't understand what bench pressing 185 lbs has to do with basketball. And I agree. Bench press is for your chest, its not even a good way to measure upper body strength. If a guy benches more then you it probably means he has nicer pecs, thats about it.
Maybe they should make them do some squats or deadlifts. Some tangible way to measure lower body strength which i think is just as important if not more.
With that said, i think Cousins is really hurting himself with some of these numbers. Is it enough to put him out of top 4. Maybe not, but i'm starting to have 2nd thoughts about drafting him. I picked Favors on lottery day, thinking i'll be flipping back and forth daily, but so far, even though i probably criticized him daily, i haven't changed my pick once. Still think the best thing do to is trade down.
Fantasy scenario (hey its better then some of the ideas about Phil Jackson, Wall, Lebron and Dirk).
Philly drafts Favors. We swap picks with Wolves + Rubio.
Wolves take Turner. We swap pick with GS + Randolph (or a promise not to match an offer to Morrow)
GS take Cousins. Sac takes Wes or Aminu. Nets whoever is left.
3rd turns into Rubio, Randolph (or Morrow more realistically), Aminu.
Maybe Kings even reach for Henry or take Aldrich instead. They dont really need SFs. We can trade down even further.
Rich Rane wrote:I think we're all missing the point here. vc4pres needs to stop watching games.
vincecarter4pres wrote:I just can't see Wes Johnson over Turner. I think Wes is going to be a really nice pro, but I think his upside is limited.
Edit: That said, and even though I'm a huge Evan Turner homer, I would have to give serious thought to it if Minny offered the 4th and Rubio for the 3rd if Turner is still on the board.
I think that's an offer you ultimately have to take, just don't know that Kahn would offer something that steep for Turner, as much as he loves this kid, he says the same about Ricky, think he wants to eventually pair them up.
I think I would also be open to something centered around the 4th pick and Kevin Love for the 3rd pick and decent filler.