Retro POY '94-95 (Voting Complete)

[sp6r=underrated]

Hakeem's series against the knicks was far worse than his series against Robinson.


His scoring average was the same as the 94 RS despite playing two more minutes per game, and lower than his WC PO scoring average. He had just his many turnovers as assists. His FG% dropped from the RS and WC PO. His rebounding was actually poor. The knicks defense did impact Hakeem's game.

He had a great series but he did not run wild on the Knicks the way he completely ran wild on the Spurs.

[lorak]

sp6r – the point is: Hakeem still played very good against much better defense than Spurs. According to some people “logic” it means that Knicks were bad defensive team.

Or lets leave Hakeem and look at 2001 finals. Shaq was amazing against Mutombo, does it mean Deke was a bad defender….?

[kaima]

Somebody has to argue Robinson over Malone. I'll take Malone over Robinson, prime vs. prime, in all-time rankings (where I put major emphasis on who the better player was). I see no reason why Robinson should go ahead this year.

Well, Robinson was much better in the RS, and even Stockton was arguably better than Malone that year in the RS.

You could make the argument that Robinson was better than everyone in the regular season.

But then comes the post-season, where he's again exposed.

Both guys lost with HCA to the Rockets, but the Spurs did win 2 other series that PS, so I don't see how Malone can be above DRob at all.

That's a bracket issue.

If Robinson advancing two extra rounds is a piece to his side, then Malone playing far better against the Rockets and helping to push them to elimination is a pretty strong argument to his side.

The problem with the Robinson phenomenon is that he couldn't hack it against the top post players of his day. That's a really big issue when you look at the resultant team losses, and when analyzing his worth season to season.

[ronnymac2]

^^^Yeah, I understand how a wing helps a big. Your Malone and O'neal examples aren't perfect though. Shaq wasn't playing with an all-time level wing in 97 and 98- he didn't utterly fail like Robinson as an individual. Stockton wasn't exactly playing at an all-time level in 97 and 98 (98 especially), yet Malone was very good individually. He certainly didn't get destroyed like Robinson. Hakeem didn't fail as an individual pre-1994, and he didn't have a great guard.

24 and 11 on 55 TS%....yeah, that's fine. But......you are the MVP of the season. You are the man. You have HCA. You're 30 and have been in the league for six years, so inexperience isn't an issue. You're at your peak. And you let your matchup.....the guy you are defending and the guy defending you.......dominate you. In terms of production, and more importantly in terms of actual play. Dominate you.

Game 6 is the thing that really messes up Robinson's chances with me. It's not about the stats. I mean, Hakeem killed him there (IIRC, Dream did 39/17/5....Robinson did 19/11/lots of to's)...but it really isn't about the stats. Dream started the game off right in the first quarter...you could see he was going for the kill. Olajuwon brought his team back when they hit a rough stretch in the third quarter of that game. He scored like 12 in a row at one point. He made huge defensive plays.

You know what Robinson did? In the 4th quarter, the Spurs tried making a little comeback. Doc Rivers was the biggest part of it. Now, I understand that it is a team sport, and I'm not going to screw a player over because he has help or his teammates are elevating their games to carry him for a little while. I'm fine with that. A star should have teammates that can carry him for a little while. But Robinson didn't even do anything with the ball. He wasn't decisive. He wasn't effective. He didn't have any effects on the game. It looked more like he was hurting his team with costly misses that put no pressure on the defense, and costly turnovers.

You can't sell me that type of player. I don't care if it is mentality or skillset or both.....there is a fault there. You can't sell it to me. I'm not paying that guy to fail like that when I need him.

[kaima]

David Stern- Your last point could explain the team results, which I don't believe are that important to anybody anyway. Robinson individually didn't play well. Why?

Didn’t play well?
24 PPG, .553 TS%, 11 RPG – and that’s only against Hakeem.

There's a gap of 12 ppg between him and the guy he was supposed to guard.

He was creamed.

Which kind of returns to my point about gametes. I was worried that Olajuwon was going to impregnate Robinson.

Overall in playoffs he was one of the best players in the league – on both ends, for offense look at advanced stats,

Olajuwon had his biggest scoring output while being covered by Robinson.

Meanwhile, Robinson's numbers on offense fell.

re: Penny and Stockton vs Avery and their value to big man

Example – do you know how much Magic helped KAJ’s career? During whole 80s he was still very efficient because he had Magic who created opportunities for him. That same is with Malone and Stockton or Shaq who always had some all time great guard – Penny, Wade and Kobe.

So, Shaq goes from a team dominated by a pass-first (or pass-equal) guard, to a team filled with shoot-first players, and yet his numbers stay the same.

Stockton gets injured in 97 and plays 29 minutes a game. Malone averages 27, 10 and 4 and Utah's got the best record in the league behind those MVP numbers.

How does this argument help you again?

[ronnymac2]

Somebody has to argue Robinson over Malone. I'll take Malone over Robinson, prime vs. prime, in all-time rankings (where I put major emphasis on who the better player was). I see no reason why Robinson should go ahead this year.

Well, Robinson was much better in the RS, and even Stockton was arguably better than Malone that year in the RS.

Both guys lost with HCA to the Rockets, but the Spurs did win 2 other series that PS, so I don't see how Malone can be above DRob at all.

Yeah, but Malone didn't get annhilated.


To add to my post above.....in that gm6, I remember Rodman tried his hand at guarding Dream as well. I believe in the second quarter. Olajuwon drew fouls on him IIRC.

[sp6r=underrated]

Here is my ballot right now. This is not my vote:

1. Hakeem
2. Shaq

I could change my mind here. Shaq had a far better RS than Hakeem. Hakeem did have a better conference playoff than Shaq, but I'm not at all convinced Hakeem outplayed him in the finals. It has been years since I've seen this series outside of Game 1. Does anyone have a link to Games 2-4?

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3. Robinson: The best player in the RS. He had one monster series against LA.

4. Malone: 95 Jazz did disappoint in the PS, but he played great in that series. Their failure was mainly due to Stockton playing poorly. This was also Utah's best shot to win a title and one of the reasons I have little sympathy for Jazz fans who talk about Jordan. The 95 rockets are maybe the weakest champion of the last 30 years and they couldn't even beat them.

Also open to changing my mind here

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5. Barkley

I'm leaning towards Barkley here. Ewing, Payton and Stockton disqualified themselves due to their playoff performances. Barkley himself played poorly in the Phoenix series, but as Kamia pointed out he was injured. Still Barkley's injuries may be due to his conditioning. Does anyone know exactly what happened to him?

[An Unbiased Fan]

You could make the argument that Robinson was better than everyone in the regular season.

But then comes the post-season, where he's again exposed.

I absolutely would agree that DRob was the best in the RS that year. But Hakeem was insane in that PS, and outplayed DRob in the WCF en route to a Title, so he gets #1 overall easily.

Malone on the flipside was good in the RS, but not as good on offense nor defense as DRob. SA won 62 games with Rodman playing in only 49 of them. Meanwhile, Stockton was arguably the best Jazz player in the 95' RS. So there in lies the problem, Malone has to make up a lot of ground in the PS to overtake DRob, and he ends up losing with HCA in the 1st round.

That's a bracket issue.

If Robinson advancing two extra rounds is a piece to his side, then Malone playing far better against the Rockets and helping to push them to elimination is a pretty strong argument to his side.

The problem with the Robinson phenomenon is that he couldn't hack it against the top post players of his day. That's a really big issue when you look at the resultant team losses, and when analyzing his worth season to season.

Malone didn't play "far better" though, and still lost with HCA to the Rockets. The point is that Malone has to make up a lot of ground, and he didn't. I'm not even sure if Malone is going to be in my Top 5 yet, much less #2.

[kaima]

Is it wrong to look at the gametes that make up a zygote? .

But you are looking only on one (elimination game) or several (one playoffs series) gametes. When in fact we have to look at all gametes – and in this case it’s 82+X*PS games.

I don't think you understand the point, to your side or mine.

You're not interested in breaking down matchups or series. You just want to look at aggregates.

But that's not the same as putting up 35.3 a game versus 23.8. The ratio on both ends is frighteningly bad for Robinson.

You miss the point. So another example: 1994 Hakeem against Knicks. That was one of the all time greatest defensive teams ever. Hakeem was guarded by Ewing, Oakley and Mason. Still, he played very good against so good defense.

He scored 26.8 a game. Lower than his season average, and way below 35.

Does it mean that Kncicks were bad defensive team? Wait, why I ask – by your “logic” it clearly means that.

As opposed to your logic, where 23 v 35 is a great series for the guy with 23.

But let's face it, we're back to the aggregate, where you're desperate to Robinson too high.

Tell me, do you think Hakeem belongs over Robinson? And if so, why?

[lorak]

^^^Yeah, I understand how a wing helps a big. Your Malone and O'neal examples aren't perfect though. Shaq wasn't playing with an all-time level wing in 97 and 98- he didn't utterly fail like Robinson as an individual.

But he also didn’t play against as good player like Hakeem 1995… The same with Malone when Stockton got old.

The rest of your post is rather about why HO>> DR and with that conclusion I agree.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Somebody has to argue Robinson over Malone. I'll take Malone over Robinson, prime vs. prime, in all-time rankings (where I put major emphasis on who the better player was). I see no reason why Robinson should go ahead this year.

Well, Robinson was much better in the RS, and even Stockton was arguably better than Malone that year in the RS.

Both guys lost with HCA to the Rockets, but the Spurs did win 2 other series that PS, so I don't see how Malone can be above DRob at all.

Yeah, but Malone didn't get annhilated.


To add to my post above.....in that gm6, I remember Rodman tried his hand at guarding Dream as well. I believe in the second quarter. Olajuwon drew fouls on him IIRC.

I won't argue that Malone's play was better vs the Rockets as compared to DRob. I would point out though that DRob had Hakeem guarding him, while Malone was a mismatch for SA.

Regardless, I don't see how a series where the Jazz lost with HCA, can propel Malone over DRob who was superior the whole year.

[kaima]

You could make the argument that Robinson was better than everyone in the regular season.

But then comes the post-season, where he's again exposed.

I absolutely would agree that DRob was the best in the RS that year. But Hakeem was insane in that PS, and outplayed DRob in the WCF en route to a Title, so he gets #1 overall easily.

Malone on the flipside was good in the RS, but not as good on offense nor defense as DRob. SA won 62 games with Rodman playing in only 49 of them. Meanwhile, Stockton was arguably the best Jazz player in the 95' RS. So there in lies the problem, Malone has to make up a lot of ground in the PS to overtake DRob, and he ends up losing with HCA in the 1st round.

Occam's razor (though I'm not disinclined to argue this more in-depth), wherein Malone gets two less wins, for that faces a tougher bracket, and goes out early.

At the same time, he's what kept his team in that series, pushed it to the limit. Whereas Robinson is the reason why the Spurs fell to the Rockets.

I think that's a big shift to Malone's side, right there.

That's a bracket issue.

If Robinson advancing two extra rounds is a piece to his side, then Malone playing far better against the Rockets and helping to push them to elimination is a pretty strong argument to his side.

The problem with the Robinson phenomenon is that he couldn't hack it against the top post players of his day. That's a really big issue when you look at the resultant team losses, and when analyzing his worth season to season.

Malone didn't play "far better" though, and still lost with HCA to the Rockets.

30+ and over 13 rebounds per against Hakeem and the Rockets. (That's a lot better than 23.8 and 11.)

The only player to man up to Hakeem in a deciding game.

Robinson? Miserable numbers compared to both players, and a closeout game of 19 versus 39 for Hakeem. Malone? 35 versus Hakeem's 33.

The point is that Malone has to make up a lot of ground, and he didn't. I'm not even sure if Malone is going to be in my Top 5 yet, much less #2.

I think Malone was very strong that year, and will be punished, unduly, for a team playoff failure, while Robinson gets a free ride on an individuated playoff massacre (believe me, that contradiction in terms makes sense, he was so bad).

This season, as predicated by the Rockets, was about playoff play from star post players.

Malone played very good basketball. Robinson gave us crap, because he again failed at matchup basketball.

A very telling stat against DRob in his career is how badly he did against other post players at his peak.

[ronnymac2]

I won't argue that Malone's play was better vs the Rockets as compared to DRob. I would point out though that DRob had Hakeem guarding him, while Malone was a mismatch for SA.

Regardless, I don't see how a series where the Jazz lost with HCA, can propel Malone over DRob who was superior the whole year.

Well, there is our problem. It is an indisputable fact that Robinson had a better regular season ito stats, accolades, etc. Not that Malone wasn't impressive in these things either, but Robinson wins that. I can't argue with that. I just disagree that that makes Robinson a superior player.

They are close. They have to be close either way. I don't think it is horribly wrong to go with Robinson over Malone in 95, but....after what happened in those playoffs (which imo speaks to who they are as players), my opinion won't change based on an all-nba team, 2 pgg, etc.



When I watched that gm 6 (also another 2 games of the series, but especially this one because this was an elination game).....if I didn't know who the hell Robinson or Hakeem or Elliott or any of these guys were, but I know about basketball, I would have never guessed that that 7 footer named Robinson was a top 20 player ever. I would have thought he was a great athlete with great reflexes for blocking shots. He was probably the team's very good defensive C who could score a little.

In all honesty....in my mind in that situation, he wouldn't have been a failing superstar. He would have passed as a role player. That's telling. You need to give me something more than that. I need to know you are on the court. Even if you fail....you need to let me know you are there. Kobe Bryant didn't play amazing in 08 finals, but I would have never mistaken him as a role player. I would have recognized a superstar. Lebron in the 08 playoffs....I would have seen a superstar. Malone in the 98 finals.....I would have seen a superstar.

[lorak]

Both guys lost with HCA to the Rockets, but the Spurs did win 2 other series that PS, so I don't see how Malone can be above DRob at all.

That's a bracket issue.

And you got better bracket when you played better in regular season. So stop penalizing Robinson for that.

re: Robinson’s defense, again
Could somebody answer to that example, please:
Shaq in 2001 finals had 33 PPG, 16 PRG, 5 APG, 3.5 BPG and .575 TS% against Dikembe Mutombo. Does it mean Mutombo was bad defender?

[An Unbiased Fan]

2. Shaq

I could change my mind here. Shaq had a far better RS than Hakeem. Hakeem did have a better conference playoff than Shaq, but I'm not at all convinced Hakeem outplayed him in the finals. It has been years since I've seen this series outside of Game 1. Does anyone have a link to Games 2-4?

Shaq's team got swept with HCA, which is worse than DRob, or Malone to me. I will give Shaq credit for making the Finals though, but not enough to put him over DRob who was the better RS player.

Even more baffling is that Shaq had help in the Finals, yet still got swept.

Game 1:
Penny - 26/4/5
Grant - 15/16
Nick "choke" Anderson - 22/11/5

On the winning play Shaq rotated late to CLyde, and Hakeem got the tip in for the win

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWuz_1LAGeo[/youtube]

Game 2:
Penny - 33/8/5
Grant - 10/10

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1eRqQYNm04[/youtube]

Game 3:
Penny - 19/4/14
Grant - 18/10

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxxLqo01Fio[/youtube]

Game 4:
Penny - 25/5/6
Grant - 11/12

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmU8ZxwqG5Y[/youtube]

[lorak]

I’ve just watched WCF# 6 and highly recommended everybody to do the same.
It’s on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1kKGo-3 ... re=related

- Robinson’s defense was very good. Hakeem scored a lot of points, but not many with Robinson on him. Usually Rockets ran pick and roll and Spurs help defender was late, not Robinson’s fault, who with his mobility was great pick and roll defender and he attacked ballhandler, so he was doing what big should do in that situation, but as we all know (I hope) effective defense on pick and roll is always a team effort.

- Robinson also keep Olajuwon outside of the paint. Akeem had 2 or 3 baskets in the paint from fastbreaks, but the rest were jumpers. So Robinson was doing his job keeping Olajuwon away from the basket.


- Robinson’s offense was far worse (and that two missed FTs at the end…) but he was double or triple teamed on almost every possession. Here’s example, triple teamed in 4th quarter:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


So he always had two, sometimes three defenders on him, so he was doing what should be done in that situation – share the ball, swing it to the weak side to the open teammate.

[sp6r=underrated]

DavidStern

Stop doctoring photos. There have only been two NBA players in league history to be swarmed: Hakeem and KG. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

[NO-KG-AI]

Umm, everyone knows you weren't allowed to double team pre-Kobe era, they would eject you from the league.

[ItsMillerTime]

Final Rankings

1.Shaq
2. Hakeem
3. Robinson
4. Malone
5. Ewing

[kaima]

Both guys lost with HCA to the Rockets, but the Spurs did win 2 other series that PS, so I don't see how Malone can be above DRob at all.

That's a bracket issue.

And you got better bracket when you played better in regular season.

Granted.

But then, who expects a number 6 seed to be the one team you must avoid?

Houston was a bizarre team in history.

So stop penalizing Robinson for that.

I haven't penalized him for that. I'm just not celebrating him for that, or swayed that this proves he was the second best player of the season.

I don't see the wisdom in pretending that Robinson was definitively better than Malone in 95 based on two more wins and favorable bracket that had as much to do with where Houston finished.

And really, that's David's main argument. Yet the argument against him is again one of matchups in the frontcourt come playoff time.

Malone played much better than Robinson, and kept his team in the series against the eventual champions. Robinson was arguably what took SA out of the championship picture.

A huge difference, and yet pretty typical for both sides. Robinson is known for this sort of thing.

When Malone averages 30 and 13 in a losing effort, while Robinson puts up 23 and 11 while allowing 35.3, a huge ratio (Malone V Hakeem was a ratio of 4.8 overall, and this was without a real starter beside him), I don't think it's all that relevant to then point out that Robinson beat up on the Nuggets and Lakers, or Vlade Divac individually.

Why? Because this is about the best versus the best, and rarely do we get sample rates or examples like we did here, just for the reason that Shaq against, say, Gary Payton is far different than two guys going all out in the post night after night. That was one series after another in the Hakeem case, and it was Robinson that played horrible under these conditions. Oh, that is, again.

The Rockets themselves violate every code of regular season greatness, and the Spurs appear to be their fractured mirror image: the reversal on the other side. Not in Kansas anymore (and yes, I imagine D-Rob in ruby red slippers).

re: Robinson’s defense, again
Could somebody answer to that example, please:
Shaq in 2001 finals had 33 PPG, 16 PRG, 5 APG, 3.5 BPG and .575 TS% against Dikembe Mutombo. Does it mean Mutombo was bad defender?

So you're "cherry picking" again, huh?

As far as Mutombo, he was 34 at the time (yeah, right) and a great defender in the context of team defense, not necessarily positional defense on superstars.

If you want to admit that David Robinson was lacking as a positional defender that would simply leave us in agreement, for that's the conclusion I've drawn.

As far as Mutombo as a stand-in for Robinson, it's not exactly a great parallel. Was Mutombo the MVP? Was Mutombo a top five player? Hell, top 20?

Robinson allowing Dream to outscore him by nearly 12 a game is not an issue that will go away.