Retro POY '89-90 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '89-90. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1990.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1990.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1990.html

Topics for '89-90

-Pistons repeat and Isiah becomes a legend
-Jordan's Bulls almost beat the Pistons
-Magic wins incredibly close MVP race over Barkley and Jordan

[JordansBulls]

Ranking early on
1989-1990

1. M.Jordan - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Was 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Playoff WS, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes. All NBA 1st Team And 1st Team Defense.


2. Magic Johnson - Finished 1st in MVP voting, was 3rd in Win Shares in the season, 4th in season PER and 2nd in WS Per 48 minutes. Was 4th in Season Win Shares and 4th in season PER. Was 3rd in Playoff PER. All NBA 1st Team.

Losing to Phoenix was a disppointment this year though.


3. Charles Barkley - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, was 2nd in Win Shares, 3rd in PER on the season and 4th in the playoffs, All NBA 1st Team

4. Karl Malone - Finished 4th in MVP voting, All NBA 1st Team. 4th in season Win Shares and 2nd in season PER

5. Isiah Thomas - Finished 2nd in Playoff Win Shares, Won Finals MVP

Isiah's FINALS STATS
Points per game: 27.6
Boards per game: 5.2
Assists per game: 7.0
PER: 27.1


HM: Hakeem (All NBA 2nd Team, and Defensive 1st Team), Robinson (All NBA 3rd Team, and Defensive 2nd Team), Patrick Ewing - Finished 5th in MVP voting, All NBA First Team and led in 4 BPG on the season.



I think my top 3 are set in stone though. Isiah can move up over Malone though.

[sp6r=underrated]

Just say no to Isiah. I'll explain why later.

[Gongxi]

Isiah deserves consideration, but I doubt he'll show up on my list.

[sp6r=underrated]

From an old post: I think its important to analyze why the Bad Boy Pistons were successful. The Pistons won for two reasons: (i) dominate defense, (ii) great rebounding. Isiah did not play a significant role in either area.

[Optimism Prime]

Hey guys, I'm going to be out of touch Thursday through Sunday. Doctor MJ should have my ballots now--I tried to go a bit more in depth the next three seasons to make up for my lack of participation.

Anyways, on to this year!

Interesting year. Magic, Chuck and Michael were clearly the top 3 in the RS: top 3 in WS and WS/48, 3 of top 4 in PER, first-team, top 3 in voting, with each getting .600+ in MVP shares. (Hopefully this year will be equivalently close in our voting.) The three best players in the finals had a combined .005. Pretty strong indication there that they won't be showing up in my top-5 unless there's overwhelming evidence in the playoffs.

More wackiness: Robinson, as a rookie, made it to the second round before getting beat in 7 by the conference champs!

So of that top three, which do I find more impressive?
22/7/12 on .622 TS% with 25/6/13 on .598 in the playoffs (second ronud)
25/12/4 on .661 with 25/16/4 on .589 in the playoffs (Second round)
33/7/6/3 on .606 with 37/7/7/3 on .592 in the playoffs (third round)

Once again, I have to go with Jordan here. He elevated his game and went further in the playoffs than the other two. Led playoffs in PER, WS, WS/48--clearly the best player in the postseason, he just ran into a superior team. I can't dock him too much for that.

Magic over Barkley; I think it's easier to build a team around him Chuck. I tend to overvalue great point guard seasons, and Magic as always was one of the best, but this one's close.

Malone had a great year--31/11/3, upped to 31/16 in the playoffs? Not bad! First-round sweep? Bad! I'm not sure why there's such a huge gap between him and Barkley in MVP voting this year. Jazz had the better record, and his stats were just as--if not more--impressive than Barkley's. But that sweep hurts him here.

Ewing and his 29/11/2/4/1 on .599 (29/11/3/2/1, .579) versus rookie Rob and a 24/12/2/4/2 on .579 (24/12/2/4/1, .581) for the last spot... Ewing for me, though I can understand arguments to the contrary. I just hestitate hitching my wagon to a rookie, even one as good as he was this year.

Ballot:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Charles Barkley
4. Karl Malone
5. Patrick Ewing

[Optimism Prime]

Agreed with the Isiah comments. The Bad Boy Pistons were a great team that won the title, much like the Pistons in 04. Sure, Thomas/Billups won the Finals MVP those years, but that's because someone had to. I can't reward Isiah for dominant team play when there's really no evidence that he was more than a part of the whole.

[sp6r=underrated]

Scary thing is I believe this is the 7th season were MJ deserved RPOY for the seasons we've done. I'm strongly leaning towards him 1 in 88 and 87.

[Manuel Calavera]

So far I have

1. Magic
2. Barkley
3. Jordan

With the other two spots up in the air.

[Dr Positivity]

Anybody have a site for playoff game logs? Bball-reference's only make it to 91. I really don't know why, I mean they have the regular season ones and they have the playoff averages, but not the full games. I would love to see Barkley and Magic's playoff stats against Chicago/Phoenix. I'm not sure Magic deserves to beat him this year, albeit I'm leaning towards him.

[Doctor MJ]

Scary thing is I believe this is the 7th season were MJ deserved RPOY for the seasons we've done. I'm strongly leaning towards him 1 in 88 and 87.

Yeah this year will be telling as to how Jordan will go down.

Earlier someone mentioned that they didn't think Jordan would surpass Duncan - which makes some sense based on Jordan's MVP performance. When I first started doing this type of analysis, I was actually shocked at how much love I gave Jordan, despite the fact that I was deliberately being very conservative in disagreeing with MVP voters. Consistently before the titles, Jordan's teams overachieved in the playoffs, Jordan improved in the playoffs, and his MVP-competitors stumbled.

It is funny - I get when people refused to elevate a guy too much before he wins titles, however it's quite strange that people would criticize Jordan for not being a winner when in his teams were clear overachievers. I guess it goes back to how people call anyone who doesn't win it all a loser, even if they're winning 55 games a year.

[Doctor MJ]

I'll also mention I'm very much looking forward to the Isiah discussion, and I'd like to see some analysis of the Lakers/Suns series.

[semi-sentient]

Starting this season, things start getting a bit more difficult thanks to a lack of box scores. Hopefully those who have time can go back and watch some games, providing some good analysis to give us a better idea of what went down.

One thing I remember about this post-season is that Magic had back-to-back 40+ point games against the Suns, so he was brilliant even in defeat. I don't really remember much else outside of that though.


1989-90 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Jordan   82  39.0  33.6  .614   6.9   6.3  2.8  0.7  3.0  19.8  31.1
Magic    79  37.2  22.3  .622   6.6  11.5  1.7  0.4  3.7  16.5  26.6
Barkley  79  39.1  25.2  .635  11.5   3.9  1.9  0.6  3.1  13.4  28.9
Ewing    82  38.6  28.6  .599  10.9   2.2  1.0  4.0  3.4  13.5  25.8
Hakeem   82  38.1  24.3  .541  14.0   2.9  2.1  4.6  3.9  11.2  24.1
Malone   82  38.1  31.0  .626  11.1   2.8  1.5  0.6  3.7  15.9  27.2

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Jordan   16  42.1  36.7  .592   7.2   6.8  2.8  0.9  3.5  4.0   31.6
Magic    9   41.8  25.2  .598   6.3  12.8  1.2  0.1  4.0  1.7   25.0
Barkley  10  41.9  24.7  .562  15.5   4.3  0.8  0.7  3.0  1.5   25.0
Ewing    10  39.5  29.4  .579  10.5   3.1  1.3  2.0  2.7  1.3   25.4
Hakeem   4   40.3  18.5  .478  11.5   2.0  2.5  5.8  2.8  0.3   20.4
Malone   5   40.6  25.2  .505  10.2   2.2  2.2  1.0  2.4  0.5   19.7

Awards Recognitions

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Jordan      3       5      1st       1st
Magic       1       -      1st       ---
Barkley     2       -      1st       ---
Ewing       5       5      1st       ---
Hakeem      7       2      2nd       1st
Malone      4       -      1st       ---

Final Rankings

1. Magic Johnson - The regular season MVP and equally great in both the RS and PS. The Lakers had the best record in the league with 63 wins (and it's really crazy that they won that many games with that roster), but that wasn't enough against the 5th seeded Suns who bounced them with relative ease in the semis. A very disappointing finish, but Magic was still great in defeat putting up back-to-back 40+ point performances. No one elevated their teammates more, and while his numbers aren't as spectacular as Jordan's, I don't think they needed to be. Very tough choice either way.
   
   
2. Michael Jordan - Was brilliant in both the RS and PS, individually. While he was better on defense than Magic, I don't believe he was better on offense nor do I think he did as much for the team as far as getting other involved, although he didn't have as much to work with either.
   
   
3. Charles Barkely - MVP runner-up and had a phenomenal regular season. Came up short against the Bulls in the semis where his scoring/efficiency took a big nose dive, but rebounding shot up.
   
   
4. Patrick Ewing - Great overall season and probably had the least amount of help (as usual). I give him the edge over Hakeem for having a brilliant season on offense -- probably his best -- and also having an equally impressive post season.
   
   
5. Hakeem Olajuwon - DPOY runner-up and great RS, but fell off the map in his first round series against the Lakers and the mighty Vlade Divac. Still, a considerably better defender than Malone, so while not as good offensively and taking into account that Malone also sort of sucked in the PS, he gets the edge over Karl.

[JordansBulls]

So far I have

1. Magic
2. Barkley
3. Jordan

With the other two spots up in the air.

Explain to me Magic over MJ or Barkley over him?

The Lakers had the best record in the league and were upset by the Suns in round 2.

And Jordan went nuts on the Sixers.

This was his average against them.

vs. Philly, 1990: 43 pts/7 reb/7 ast/52% FG

[JordansBulls]

Scary thing is I believe this is the 7th season were MJ deserved RPOY for the seasons we've done. I'm strongly leaning towards him 1 in 88 and 87.

You mean in '89 and '88 right? I believe Magic should be #1 in '87.

[Gongxi]

Jordan, Magic, and Barkley are on another level compared to everyone else. I really think the gap between Barkley/Magic and the #4 guy is much larger than the gap between those two and Jordan (almost certainly my #1).

4 and 5 will be a competition between Ewing, Malone, Olajuwon, and Robinson, but two guys need to be at least mentioned.

Larry Bird did put up 24/10/8 in 75 games, and Stockton did average 14.5 assists every game, which is just mind-boggling. I want to put them in there at 4 and 5, I really do, but I don't think I could honestly justify one, let alone both.

[JordansBulls]

Anybody have a site for playoff game logs? Bball-reference's only make it to 91. I really don't know why, I mean they have the regular season ones and they have the playoff averages, but not the full games. I would love to see Barkley and Magic's playoff stats against Chicago/Phoenix. I'm not sure Magic deserves to beat him this year, albeit I'm leaning towards him.

Here is one for MJ's

http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/game ... 891990.htm

And then you can sort by year here:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Pla ... l&x=20&y=1

[jicama]

Player seasons ranked by eWins. The number next to the player name is just RS + 2*PS eWins.
A rate of 1.00 eW/484 minutes is average. In playoffs, NBA avg becomes about .91 .

Code: Select all

35.2     Michael Jordan      Chi                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
24.1   82   39   .595   34.6   7.2   5.7   2.7   2.9   .6   3.65
_5.6   16   42   .581   37.6   7.2   6.2   2.6   3.2   .8   4.00
                             
25.1     Patrick Ewing      NY                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO    Blk   e484
20.4   82   39   .588   29.2   10.7   2.0    .9   3.3   3.9   3.12
_2.4   10   40   .569   27.5   10.9   2.8   1.2   2.6   1.9   2.89
                             
23.80    Charles Barkley      Phl                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
19.0   79   39   .642   28.2   11.5   3.5   1.8   3.0   .6   2.98
 _2.4   10   42   .572   23.0   15.7   3.8    .7   2.8   .6   2.78
                             
23.75      David Robinson      SA                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl    TO   Blk   e484
19.5   82   37   .580   26.4   12.6   1.9   1.7   3.2   4.0   3.14
 _2.1   10   38   .565   23.3   11.4   2.0   1.1   2.4   4.0   2.74
                             
23.6        Karl Malone      Uta                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
21.9   82   38   .610   34.7   11.7   2.6   1.5   3.7   .6   3.39
__.9    5   41   .494   21.4   10.1   2.0   2.1   2.3   .9   2.09
                             
23.5       Magic Johnson      LA                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb    Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
18.9   79   37   .606   24.8   6.9   10.8   1.7   3.7   .4   3.11
 _2.3    9   42   .584   24.8   6.4   11.2   1.1   3.7   .1   2.99
                             
21.0       Akeem Olajuwon      Hou                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco    Reb   Ast   Stl   TO    Blk   e484
19.4   82   38   .531   23.0   13.3   2.7   2.1   3.8   4.5   3.01
 __.8    4   40   .471   14.9   12.4   1.9   2.4   2.6   5.4   2.30
                             
19.5       Clyde Drexler      Por                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
12.8   73   37   .542   22.5   6.9   5.4   2.0   2.7   .7   2.31
 _3.3   21   41   .497   17.3   6.7   6.2   2.4   3.0   .8   1.89
                             
19.0       Isiah Thomas      Det                 
 eW      G   Min   Eff%   Sco   Reb   Ast   Stl   TO   Blk   e484
11.4   81   37   .494   17.7   4.0   9.4   1.7   4.0   .2   1.85
 _3.8   20   38   .551   22.4   5.7   8.2   2.1   3.6   .3   2.42


This was a rare downer of a postseason for Olajuwon.
Isiah was even more of a playoff overachiever than his usual.

[Silver Bullet]

I hope more attention is paid to David Robinson who single handedly turned the team around from a 21 win laughing stock to a 56 win team that nearly made the conference finals. They went from 13th in defensive efficiency to 3rd - considering these are both Larry Brown teams, that is an insane leap.

Offensively his contributions match up well with Chuck's, whereas defensively he's just on another level.

[Sedale Threatt]

Not quite. He obviously had a tremendous year, but trading for Terry Cummings was a shrewd move. He was excellent that year.