Retro POY '88-89 (Voting Complete)

[Jordan23Forever]

1. M.Jordan - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Was 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Playoff WS, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes. All NBA 1st Team And 1st Team Defense

vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/7 ast/53% FG
vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/52% FG

It was actually 40 pts/6 reb/8 ast vs. the Cavs.

[lorak]

1. M.Jordan - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Was 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Playoff WS, 1st in WS Per 48 minutes. All NBA 1st Team And 1st Team Defense

vs. Cleveland, 1989: 40 pts/6 reb/7 ast/53% FG
vs. NY, 1989: 37 pts/10 reb/9 ast/52% FG

And 29.7 PPG and below 50% FG against Pistons. He also had many tournovers.

He averaged 35/7/8 on 51% for the entire playoffs and the only ones to beat Detroit.

Yeah, but you gives his stats from two series and skip stats against Pistons - when Jordan played much worse than against other teams. It was smoething like Kobe or LeBron this year against Celtics.

[lorak]

One thing that is clear to me doing this project, for your historic reputation, it is far better to peak in an offensive era rather than a defensive era. Now, this is a chicken-egg question. Are time periods dominated by offenses because the quality of the players is higher or are the rules and coaching strategy such that scoring is easier? I think it is mostly the later.

I'd being interested in posts about the 1989 Jazz:

Utah was coming off a season when they pushed the 88 lakers to the brink (one of the weaker champions in NBA history but I digress), and with a young core seemed ready to make the leap. They did win 4 more games and made a improvement in point differential. In the first round, they got swept by GSW.

For those who saw the series what happened, a sweep to a 43 win team, that entered the PS on a 6 game losing streak and just got crushed by Phoenix.

BTW: Everyone of us has noticed Malone's crazy longevity. He finished 3rd in MVP voting this year and won the award a decade later.

What went wrong?

1. Malone and Stockton are overrated
or
2. Sloan is overrated
or
3. Malone's and Stockton's supporting cast was worst than people think.

IMO it's combination of 2 and 3.

[JordansBulls]

Yeah, but you gives his stats from two series and skip stats against Pistons - when Jordan played much worse than against other teams. It was smoething like Kobe or LeBron this year against Celtics.

I listed the first two series, because we were underdogs and both and we upset both because of how MJ played.

How even in the Pistons series we were the only team to even beat them because of MJ.

[lorak]

Easily one of my favorite shows of all time.

Which was your favorite season?

Mine was season 3 rise of Marlo and the fall of the Barksdale organization.

Who was your favorite character?

It has completely ruined Law and Order SVU for me. I can't watch it anymore without thinking of The Wire. Stabler is to McNulty as Harold Minor was to Jordan.

Yeah, season three was raw as hell. I'm partial to season five because I'm majoring in English and sort of heading towards journalism, so five was cool. Plus the plan by Lester "Bill Russell" Freamon and McNutty was insane. I feel like I learned a lot about the **** nobody sees in season four, and I appreciate season four a lot.

Chris, Stringer, and Bunk were probably my favorite characters. Haynes the editor, too. Who was yours?

I agree with you guys - great show. I remeber that I was sad several days when they killed Bodie : (

[lorak]

Yeah, but you gives his stats from two series and skip stats against Pistons - when Jordan played much worse than against other teams. It was smoething like Kobe or LeBron this year against Celtics.

I listed the first two series, because we were underdogs and both and we upset both because of how MJ played.

How even in the Pistons series we were the only team to even beat them because of MJ.

Not really. Sure, in G3 MJ was amazing, hit game winner and I think he played great defense on Isiah, but G1 was a team effort, Bulls team defense won that game - for example Dumars, Isiah and Johnson had 11/45 FG.

Besides, apart from G3 Jordan averaged only 26.4 PPG on really bad shooting with many tournovers. So he had one great game (G3) and no so great five others games.

[mysticbb]

Yeah, but you gives his stats from two series and skip stats against Pistons - when Jordan played much worse than against other teams. It was smoething like Kobe or LeBron this year against Celtics.

Jordan didn't play much worse against the Pistons, but the Pistons were just able to defend him way better. It is also a fact that the Pistons vs. Bulls series was slower than the other two, thus less points, rebounds and assists are somewhat expected.

The Bulls, btw, done something in 1989 what no other team done to the Pistons in their two championship runs except for themself one year later, beat them twice in a playoffs series.

[toodles23]

Yeah, but you gives his stats from two series and skip stats against Pistons - when Jordan played much worse than against other teams. It was smoething like Kobe or LeBron this year against Celtics.

Jordan against the Pistons in '89:


Game 1 - 32 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 10 for 29
Game 2 - 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 8 for 16
Game 3 - 46 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 16 for 24
Game 4 - 23 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assists, 5 for 15
Game 5 - 18 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 4 for 8
Game 6 - 32 points, 4 rebounds, 13 assists, 13 for 25

Series - 29.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 48% FG

No, he didn't play out of his freaking mind like he did in the previous two rounds - but 30, 5.5 and 6.5 on 48% against is still very good. Better than Kobe or Lebron vs. this year's Celtics.

[lorak]

Yeah, but you gives his stats from two series and skip stats against Pistons - when Jordan played much worse than against other teams. It was smoething like Kobe or LeBron this year against Celtics.

Jordan against the Pistons in '89:


Game 1 - 32 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 10 for 29
Game 2 - 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 8 for 16
Game 3 - 46 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 16 for 24
Game 4 - 23 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assists, 5 for 15
Game 5 - 18 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 4 for 8
Game 6 - 32 points, 4 rebounds, 13 assists, 13 for 25

Series - 29.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 48% FG

No, he didn't play out of his freaking mind like he did in the previous two rounds - but 30, 5.5 and 6.5 on 48% against is still very good. Better than Kobe or Lebron vs. this year's Celtics.

I don't know. I wish we could adjust this numbers for pace and quality of defense (Celtics are better than Pistons). Because even if Pistons played slower than other teams in 1989 they still were faster than most of the teams in 2010.

Besides, apart from great G3 MJ had 43 FG% in the other five games.

[shawngoat23]

Yeah, but you gives his stats from two series and skip stats against Pistons - when Jordan played much worse than against other teams. It was smoething like Kobe or LeBron this year against Celtics.

Jordan against the Pistons in '89:


Game 1 - 32 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 10 for 29
Game 2 - 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 8 for 16
Game 3 - 46 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 16 for 24
Game 4 - 23 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assists, 5 for 15
Game 5 - 18 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 4 for 8
Game 6 - 32 points, 4 rebounds, 13 assists, 13 for 25

Series - 29.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 48% FG

No, he didn't play out of his freaking mind like he did in the previous two rounds - but 30, 5.5 and 6.5 on 48% against is still very good. Better than Kobe or Lebron vs. this year's Celtics.

Hey, do you have the box scores available? I was wondering about the turnover numbers that DavidStern brought up.

[shawngoat23]

Besides, apart from great G3 MJ had 43 FG% in the other five games.

I don't think it's fair to say "if you take away his best game, then his stats decrease". It's the same way people like to take away a running back's best runs. (If Chris Johnson didn't get his 20 yard runs, he would have X yards this season.)

Certainly, it would make sense to do it if Jordan had one crazy hot shooting night in a blowout win and absolutely stunk it up in the other 5 games of the series, which were all closely contested. I don't think 43% FG is quite in that realm. I would venture to say that if you took away the best shooting performances of most great players in a series, their shooting stats would look bad (unless you're picking an otherworldly series to begin with).

[toodles23]

I don't know. I wish we could adjust this numbers for pace and quality of defense (Celtics are better than Pistons). Because even if Pistons played slower than other teams in 1989 they still were faster than most of the teams in 2010.

Besides, apart from great G3 MJ had 43 FG% in the other five games.

What? It's just silly to exclude a game from the series. By that logic, I could say that apart from his poor game 1, he shot 52% in the series. As far as pace, we don't have full boxscores available so we can't find that out exactly, but it was a pretty low scoring series - 90.5 ppg for the Bulls and 94.7 ppg for the Pistons. The Lakers are averaging 91.8 ppg in this year's Finals, with the Celtics averaging 88.5, and that's with their awful 67 point game 6.

Edit: I guess there are pace numbers for the playoffs.

I also totally disagree that this year's Celtics are better than the '89 Pistons, but that's another debate.

Hey, do you have the box scores available? I was wondering about the turnover numbers that DavidStern brought up.

All I could find were Jordan's numbers.

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah, but you gives his stats from two series and skip stats against Pistons - when Jordan played much worse than against other teams. It was smoething like Kobe or LeBron this year against Celtics.

Jordan against the Pistons in '89:


Game 1 - 32 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 10 for 29
Game 2 - 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 8 for 16
Game 3 - 46 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 16 for 24
Game 4 - 23 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assists, 5 for 15
Game 5 - 18 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 4 for 8
Game 6 - 32 points, 4 rebounds, 13 assists, 13 for 25

Series - 29.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 48% FG

No, he didn't play out of his freaking mind like he did in the previous two rounds - but 30, 5.5 and 6.5 on 48% against is still very good. Better than Kobe or Lebron vs. this year's Celtics.

I don't know. I wish we could adjust this numbers for pace and quality of defense (Celtics are better than Pistons). Because even if Pistons played slower than other teams in 1989 they still were faster than most of the teams in 2010.

Besides, apart from great G3 MJ had 43 FG% in the other five games.

Well let's see:

In '89, Detroit's playoff pace was 88.9, Chicago's was 91.1. This year, Boston's is 89.5, Lakers' is 89.9. So we're almost certainly really not talking about a huge difference here in terms of pace adjustment.

As far as the quality of the defense, much harder to get objective on that. I've got a tough time though thinking that any perimeter player has ever had a defensive effort thrown at him that was significantly tougher than the Jordan Rules.

[vonplyr]

Since when is 29.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 48% FG in a playoff series against one of the best defensive teams EVER considered bad??!

Are we comparing mj against other players this season or against his own crazy standard?

[Doctor MJ]

Since when is 29.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 48% FG in a playoff series against one of the best defensive teams EVER considered bad??!

Are we comparing mj against other players this season or against his own crazy standard?

Well to be fair, he's going up against prime Magic. This isn't the late 90s here.

[drza]

I'd like to let this play out more and hear more arguments/go more in depth into the stats and my own memories, but I'm heading out of town in the morning and there's a real chance I might not get back online before next week. Where am I going tomorrow, you ask? Game 7, baby! Greatest Father's day present EVER.

Anyway, as to the vote, for the 3rd year in a row it's MJ vs MJ. Really, you could cut-and-paste my last argument almost verbatim here. At the time I thought Magic was better, stat say..., similar team success... makes team better vs individual brilliance, yada yada. Last time I couldn't find a difference, so went with my gut and memory with Magic. This year, there's not much difference, but there are a couple of things. This year the Lakers played a faster pace than the Bulls, which could (at a stretch) weaken Magic's numbers a bit. Also, Magic got hurt in the Finals, and in the past I've used injuries as a tie-breaker...I'm not sure I love that precedent, and since Magic made it a round further I probably wouldn't really deduct much...but since it's such a toss-up, like the pace argument, I guess it could help nudge this one to Jordan. I'll be honest, if I really were around for the next couple of days and saw some good arguments to the contrary, this vote could change. If for some reason I have internet access, I reserve the right to revisit this. But in the meantime, just in case I don't get back, I'll go Jordan then Magic.

From there, I really don't have a great feel yet. My initial impression is that Olajuwon, Barkley, Malone, Isiah, KJ, Ewing and Drexler deserve mention. Of that group, and from a quick examination of the stats, I think I would go Dream, Malone and Barkley. Again, if I get to revisit this later I could definitely change the order.

Initial (and perhaps final) vote:

1) Jordan
2) Magic
3) Olajuwon
4) Malone
5) Barkley

[lorak]

Since when is 29.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 48% FG in a playoff series against one of the best defensive teams EVER considered bad??!

These Pistons were far away from one of the best defensive team ever.

[lorak]

Besides, apart from great G3 MJ had 43 FG% in the other five games.

I don't think it's fair to say "if you take away his best game, then his stats decrease". It's the same way people like to take away a running back's best runs. (If Chris Johnson didn't get his 20 yard runs, he would have X yards this season.)

Ok, you are right. I shouldn't been talking about that "43 FG%" thing.

[lorak]

Well let's see:

In '89, Detroit's playoff pace was 88.9, Chicago's was 91.1. This year, Boston's is 89.5, Lakers' is 89.9. So we're almost certainly really not talking about a huge difference here in terms of pace adjustment.

Ok, however 2010 finals are slightly slower.
But ok, paces are comparable, so really line
29.6, 5.5, 6.5
is so better than
29.5, 6.8, 4.2
?

Especially when we consider that Bulls system was ball dominant, I mean Jordan was like LeBron, high usage guy who plays a lot with the ball. On the other hand Kobe is in a system when sharing the ball is more common.

The only real difference is in FG%, but every possible team defensive stats shows that 2010 Celtics are better defensive team than 1989 Pistons.

And keep in mind that we are comparing here Jordan at his absolute prime with Kobe after his prime, or near end of it, with bad knees or fingers ; )

[lorak]

BTW, Magic against that same Pistons team:

G1
17-5-14, 6/12 FG, 41 minutes

G2
Wiht 4 minutes left in 3rd uqarter he injured his hamstring
So he played only 29 minutes:
18-6-9, 6/12 FG

G3
Injured Magic played only 5 minutes