Retro Player of the Year Project

Gongxi · Post #721 » by **Gongxi** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:12 pm

Sounds interesting if you're big on conflating team success with individual players, sure.

Post #722 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:22 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Anyone think it would be better once we get to the 70's with the NBA and ABA to combine them together across leagues? Or do you think it is better to have a year like 1976 as NBA and then do one for 1976 as ABA?

Not sure what you've understood my answer to mean. We will be combining the leagues and a come up with a single top 5 that includes both NBA and ABA players.

jicama · Post #723 » by **jicama** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:39 pm

If anyone's interested, I've done ABA/NBA equivalencies for each year ('68-76), based on players' rates when they moved from one league to the other.
From about '72 on, they were pretty close. That is, if Gilmore gets 15 Reb/36 in the ABA, he'd have gotten about 14 in the NBA.
In the contraction of '77, both NBA and ABA guys saw their stats (and their minutes) reduced. Others were out of a job.

Post #724 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:33 am

jicama wrote:If anyone's interested, I've done ABA/NBA equivalencies for each year ('68-76), based on players' rates when they moved from one league to the other.
From about '72 on, they were pretty close. That is, if Gilmore gets 15 Reb/36 in the ABA, he'd have gotten about 14 in the NBA.
In the contraction of '77, both NBA and ABA guys saw their stats (and their minutes) reduced. Others were out of a job.

I think that would be great to see. I'd love to see it when we get to those threads in this project. If it's not already on the Stat board, would make a good addition.

sp6r=underrated · Post #725 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:12 am

A lot of the 81 PHI/BOS series is available online for those interested

Game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWqcEEnL ... re=related

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWqcEEnLENk&feature=related[/youtube]

Game 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ezms7xL ... re=related

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ezms7xLWL4&feature=related[/youtube]

Game 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg9wuM1V ... re=related

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg9wuM1VcF4&feature=related[/youtube]

Game 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IKPGMwB ... re=related

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IKPGMwBtIE&feature=related[/youtube]

Game 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZEyGWioscw

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZEyGWioscw[/youtube]

JordansBulls · Post #726 » by **JordansBulls** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:44 am

IMO it was the greatest 7 game series in NBA History.

Just look at Games 4-7

Game 4 April 26 Boston Celtics 105 @ Philadelphia 76ers 107
Game 5 April 29 Philadelphia 76ers 109 @ Boston Celtics 111
Game 6 May 1 Boston Celtics 100 @ Philadelphia 76ers 98
Game 7 May 3 Philadelphia 76ers 90 @ Boston Celtics 91

jicama · Post #727 » by **jicama** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:27 am

In which game does Cedric Maxwell get tossed into the Philly crowd, pull himself out, then return to jump on a fan?
No suspension, no tech, nothing. Play on. The good old days.

sp6r=underrated · Post #728 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:41 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTtxnBFZ88Y[/youtube]

Game 3

It looked the fan did throw something at Maxwell to me

A player shouldn't be allowed attack a fan and he should have been ejected.

BTW, realgm would explode if the Celtics had zero fouls and the other team had 14 in a playoff game.

Gongxi · Post #729 » by **Gongxi** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:24 am

So through 85-86, my RPOY votes break down the top 10 as....

Michael Jordan 94
Shaquille O'Neal 70
Karl Malone 52
Tim Duncan 44
Magic Johnson 43
Kobe Bryant 41
Hakeem Olajuwon 37
Kevin Garnett 32
David Robinson 30
LeBron James 28

I wonder how the end result will look as compared to what I'd imagine my top 10 would be now. Would you guys expect that your rankings in this project will accurately reflect your top 10? Why wouldn't it? Do you think the results (again, your results) will make you reconsider some rankings you had previously?

jicama · Post #730 » by **jicama** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:01 am

Very good question. Looking at players year by year is one way to look at their cumulative impact. Looking at whole careers, other arguments can be made.

I like it both ways. Michael Cooper may have brought more to the Lakers (as an example) in 10 years than Wilt did in 5. Wilt got them to 4 Finals and won the single title. Lakers got 5 titles with Coop, any one of which they're unlikely to win without him.

Of course, Cooper doesn't impact the game at the same level. Not many kids grow up playing ball and wishing they could be like Cooper.

Gongxi, I'd rank your 10 about the same, except I see a little LA bias in there.

sp6r=underrated · Post #731 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:58 pm

Gongxi wrote:

I wonder how the end result will look as compared to what I'd imagine my top 10 would be now. Would you guys expect that your rankings in this project will accurately reflect your top 10? Why wouldn't it? Do you think the results (again, your results) will make you reconsider some rankings you had previously?

This process will make me reconsider some of my presumptions.

Still, I wouldn't expect or really want my all time list to exactly mirror my RPOY list for several reasons. Peak play generally matters more to me than longevity. Second, there are a lot of votes I've cast before or after that wouldn't necessarily reflect who I felt was the true best player that year. I believe Drza said something along the lines of that he still felt KG was the best individual player but he couldn't justify ranking him above guys who had close enough RS seasons and had significant PS success in the 06 or 07 thread. Third, the injury factor does matter more in these threads than in all time best thread. For example, I remember in the 98 or 97 thread you said you would have voted for Shaq as the best player but he just missed too many games. Finally, though I think this is generally overstated in its importance, but some years are slightly harder than other years RPOY voting.

I have to say I missed several years, so my current standing is incomplete.

Gongxi · Post #732 » by **Gongxi** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:16 pm

jicama wrote:Gongxi, I'd rank your 10 about the same, except I see a little LA bias in there.

I think I'm going to save this quote for quite some time. The Kobe fans think I hate him and am out to get him, so that will be fun.

Jimmy76 · Post #733 » by **Jimmy76** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:18 pm

Gongxi wrote:I hate him and am out to get him

arent we all

Post #734 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:37 am

Hey all:

Planning to being the '09-10 POY thread July 5th, and end on July 12th.

Planning to break over the weekend of July 4th because of holiday scheduling conflicts. So two weekends off in a row.

Post #735 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:44 am

Gongxi wrote:I wonder how the end result will look as compared to what I'd imagine my top 10 would be now. Would you guys expect that your rankings in this project will accurately reflect your top 10? Why wouldn't it? Do you think the results (again, your results) will make you reconsider some rankings you had previously?

It won't quite be my real top 10. It doesn't factor in non-top 5 years and it doesn't factor in the variance in competition from year to year. Also, something I hadn't thought much about before: A player who often misses time is going to take a hit every year, which could make him look like a non-top 5 player, when in actuality he's playing a long career at a top 5 level.

Reconsider my rankings? Absolutely.

JordansBulls · Post #736 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:58 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Hey all:

Planning to being the '09-10 POY thread July 5th, and end on July 12th.

Planning to break over the weekend of July 4th because of holiday scheduling conflicts. So two weekends off in a row.

So we will have 1984-1985 Mon-Wed and 1983-1984 Wed-Fri

And then July 5-July 12th - '09-10?

Post #737 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:03 am

JordansBulls wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Hey all:

Planning to being the '09-10 POY thread July 5th, and end on July 12th.

Planning to break over the weekend of July 4th because of holiday scheduling conflicts. So two weekends off in a row.

So we will have 1984-1985 Mon-Wed and 1983-1984 Wed-Fri

And then July 5-July 12th - '09-10?

No, to be done in parallel with normal Retro POY voting. So, it will overlap with '82-83, '81-82, and '80-81.

JordansBulls · Post #738 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:04 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Hey all:

Planning to being the '09-10 POY thread July 5th, and end on July 12th.

Planning to break over the weekend of July 4th because of holiday scheduling conflicts. So two weekends off in a row.

So we will have 1984-1985 Mon-Wed and 1983-1984 Wed-Fri

And then July 5-July 12th - '09-10?

No, to be done in parallel with normal Retro POY voting. So, it will overlap with '82-83, '81-82, and '80-81.

Ok, makes sense.

Post #739 » by **semi-sentient** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:31 pm

BTW, thought I'd share my top 10 so far, based on how I've voted.

Code: Select all

1.  Michael Jordan      (89)
2.  Tim Duncan          (63)
3.  Kobe Bryant         (57)
4.  Shaquille O'Neal    (55)
5.  Magic Johnson       (51)
6.  Hakeem Olajuwon     (49)
7.  Karl Malone         (38)
8.  Kevin Garnett       (30)
9.  David Robinson      (24)
10. LeBron James        (23)

Regarding Kobe, which it seems I've shown some bias towards, my biggest regret is voting him too high in 05-06, so if I could go back and redo that year then Shaq would be ahead of him at this point.

That's the only time that my vote has deviated (noticeably) away from the general consensus, so if I could redo that year Kobe would actually have 52 at this point.

shawngoat23 · Post #740 » by **shawngoat23** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:46 pm

semi-sentient wrote:Regarding Kobe, which it seems I've shown some bias towards, my biggest regret is voting him too high in 05-06, so if I could go back and redo that year then Shaq would be ahead of him at this point.

That's the only time that my vote has deviated (noticeably) away from the general consensus, so if I could redo that year Kobe would actually have 52 at this point.

It should balance out. I feel I should have voted Kobe higher than 3rd in 2007-08 (behind Paul and Garnett). I thought Paul was the most outstanding player that year, and Garnett more decorated than either (and changed the Boston team around). But in retrospect, I can't really make an argument for both over Kobe if I stay consistent with one criteria. (It might also have to do with KG getting outrebounded 15-3 by Kobe in Game 7, thus tainting how I view him now.)