EG post Abe era started Nov 24, 2009 - Eval EG from then

[hands11]

Blaming Pollin is so incredibly convenient, portraying him as a George Steinbrenner/Jerry Jones type, even if it's not based in reality. I too highly doubt that Abe Pollin gave specific orders to Ernie to obtain Randy Foye and Mike Miller by name because of Mr. Pollin's extensive scouting of both of them. He might have said if you don't think you can get a good player at 5, would you look at obtaining a quality veteran. Ernie is accountable for his record, both before and after Pollin's death. I can only hope that he will make good moves or if he makes bad ones that he will be replaced by someone more competent.

I didnt compare him to those owners and that isn't the focus of this thread.

Just rate the moves since Nov 24th 2009.

[hands11]

no D, I think EG should have been fired for that MM/Foye for #5 deal. That was crappy from day one.

To not know that Curry was better than Foye alone was bad scouting and just not understanding Foye's known weaknesses. To ignore that both Foye and Miller were UFAs was inexcusable. To risk going further over the cap for two mediocre players coming off a terrible season on another awful, losing team just showed a lack of insight on EGs part.

That deal was worse than anything I could have conceived EG would do at the time.

Wasn't in love with that move, but was among those that, at the time, could see how it might be a good move if other things fell into place, and it wasn't the last move (meaning, get tougher bigs and some defense). I was more upset with passing on Blair, a low risk addition of interior toughness.

Hands is trying to define a new, post-Pollin era. I'm not into blaming Pollin, but I can see the utility in looking at post-November 24, 2009 as a discrete era that can be judged separately. For that reason, I'm steering clear of the 2009 draft.

Yes, because this is the front office that we have. I'm feeling pretty good about our front office so I thought maybe since Ted is now our owner that we could look at this with a line in the sand and maybe get a better feel for what we have and what we can look forward to with Ted, EG, Flip and Sam-I-Am but mostly I think it is about Ted and EG.

People have questioned how good EG is, so I wanted to get a clear evaluation on the move that can be cleanly connected to him ( after abe with no clear owner - a interesting place to operate ) and with Ted as the owner defining what he wants from him.

Ted said he has the final call on defining how they will build. We even got a 10 point Ted Plan. Then it is up to EG to go find the best way to make that happen. I suspect that what EG find is also run by Ted for approval. Personally, I like it like that and I trust Teds leadership in defining what that is. Owner and GM are a team. I don't think you can judge one without the other.

Also, Ted is the face of the organization. He is right out there. Other teams players are going to see that. He is a cool guy. He is smart. He is the one looking to upgrade the Booth and make a better game experience. He will be the one who invests in a big man coach if we get one. He is adding the cup holder and upgrading the food. All of that helps when talent is considering where it goes.

So here is our new team and new front office. I just wanted to evaluate how well they are doing.

[hands11]

Ah, nothing like the good ole 'blame the dead man' theory.

I'm sure Abe, nodding off in his wheelchair, was conscious long enough to direct Ernie to acquire Randy Foye & Mike Miller for our '09 5th pick because Abe thought so highly of them and thought they'd be the final pieces to the puzzle.

And don't forget when Abe demanded Ernie give $16 million of his own money to DeShawn Stevenson or else!

And of course we all know Abe was sole force behind bringing Mike James to DC.

Of course we needed a thread for this, because its not like we didn't have an Ernie thread to begin with. Definitely an issue we needed to rehash once again. I hadn't mentioned EG's shortcomings in like 5 days, I was starting to slip.

Patiently waits for Lyrical Rico AKA The Tool to come in with two or three emoticons to show his approval.

Just rate the moves since Nov 24th. There was no thread like that. Stop with the straw man and the hate. Be objective.

Be objective??? Dude, you gotta frickin poll which only goes from a grade of A to C!!!! Let's be real here. And you tell me I can only evaluate the man for the last 8 months when he's had the position for over 7 years!

I already said he can't fully be judged on this offseason until we get a look a Seraphin. Dont talk to me about objectivity.

Everyone wants to cut Ernie some slack because of Abe. Well hell maybe we should look back at history and see that Wes Unseld wasn't that bad either.

I explained why the poll only goes to C and what to do if you want to grade lower.
As for only rating him from Nov 24th, 2009, that was address also.

[hands11]

While I think those are fair evaluation from a dollar per performance stand point, I think you are taking some stuff out of the context that makes the Kirk deal an A.

Sure, Kirk cost to much as a straight back up PG/SF but we got him for nothing and the 17th pick which may have brought us a starting center for many years. And we had a cap space to pay Kirk that much for only two years if we even keep him that long. And Kirk is a solid influence, something this team needs. And it add the x factor flexibility regarding Gil and Nick. And it gives you a solid reliable second PG while your number 1 pick works his way through things. And having the solid second PG means you don't have to play Gil there while your turning him into a pure SG and you have a solid vet PG to help develop structure for all those bench players you want to get the most out off. And this really put the screws to Nick to grow up and get it going.

For all those reasons, Kirk is well worth the money we are paying him, specially since it was only a two year deal so if we want, EG can likely trade him in a package for something more come the trade deadline. Melo anyone ? I give EG an clear A if not an A+ on this deal for sure.

And it was only because we cleared the deck that we could do it. This would end up better than the CB for Kwame deal.

Objectivity involves not making assumptions. You sure are making alot of assumptions here.

Saying MAY is not an assumption. If I said it DID, that would be an assumption.

The kid was taken 17th. He had other good teams looking at him. There is video and he played on National team. IMO it was a good calculated risk that MAY have brought us a starting quality center.

Come on. Lets get to the real evaluating of EG and EG and Ted from the body of work we can evaluate as best we can right now from the time EG was not partnered with Abe and since he has been partnered with Ted.

This is our front office now. I think it deserves a fresh look. We need to evaluate it cuz if it isn't this then it will be something else we need to evaluate and that means another transition and re-evaulation of all our assets with someone who we have no track record of with this owner.

There has been a lot of good an bad posted about EG. So I wanted to take a look at what he has done since Abe without debating over the muddy period that was him and Abe together.

[Benjammin]

Ok, moves since November 24th, 2009.

1. Jamison trade-- B+, dumped his salary, received a pick.
2. Haywood/Butler/Desuckashawn deal-- C dumped Desuckashawn, Cuban has laughed at EG, basically saying he took EG to school on the deal
3. Drafted John Wall--sorry you don't get a grade for luck or doing something that non-basketball fans would know to do.
4. Hinrich/17th pick deal--TBD--It depends upon Seraphin. I think he's a good risk at that point and the fact other teams were interested in him is not a bad thing. EG's infatuation with Hinrich is puzzling.
5. Booker/23rd pick deal--TBD As others mentioned, Poindexter might have been a better target.
6. Yi deal--C not as negative on this as some as the downside isn't too high, but nor do I think there's much upside either.
7. Signed Hilton Armstrong-C Average move, average grade.
8. Signed Josh Howard-B Reasonable move, especially if he plays well he could be traded at the trade deadline to a contending team and/or keep his Bird rights in 2011 FA season.
9. Drafted Hamady Ndiaye-TBD

That doesn't look like a stellar record to me. It's not awful either.

[hands11]

Ok, moves since November 24th, 2009.

1. Jamison trade-- B+, dumped his salary, received a pick.
2. Haywood/Butler/Desuckashawn deal-- C dumped Desuckashawn, Cuban has laughed at EG, basically saying he took EG to school on the deal
3. Drafted John Wall--sorry you don't get a grade for luck or doing something that non-basketball fans would know to do.
4. Hinrich/17th pick deal--TBD--It depends upon Seraphin. I think he's a good risk at that point and the fact other teams were interested in him is not a bad thing. EG's infatuation with Hinrich is puzzling.
5. Booker/23rd pick deal--TBD As others mentioned, Poindexter might have been a better target.
6. Yi deal--C not as negative on this as some as the downside isn't too high, but nor do I think there's much upside either.
7. Signed Hilton Armstrong-C Average move, average grade.
8. Signed Josh Howard-B Reasonable move, especially if he plays well he could be traded at the trade deadline to a contending team and/or keep his Bird rights in 2011 FA season.
9. Drafted Hamady Ndiaye-TBD

That doesn't look like a stellar record to me. It's not awful either.

Fair evaluation going over trades one by one but you left a lot out. Your C grade on the Dallas deal left a lot out.

Also, while evaluating them one by one is useful, what about the end product and the reasons for the moves.

We went from older with dead weight and pieces that didnt work great to young, athletic, more defensive minded and only one contract that is long and high priced in just 8 mouths while EG operated though the Gil gun thing, a dead owner, and the team getting sold.

We have zero dead weight players like DSleez, Ross, Mini Me, etc.

[Dat2U]

I'd add in EG's failure or unwillingness to resign Alonzo Gee at the end of his 2nd 10 day contract. Could have locked up a young rising SF on cheap.

I wonder if we could have done more to keep Shaun Livingston as well.

Also with the Wood/Deshawn trade, we passed up on Jeff Pendergraph and Portland's 1st rounder so we could save $3 million in salary by dumping DeBrick. That was a bad move IMO.

And don't forget EG tried to move Blatche for D.J. Augustin prior to Blatche blowing up, only to be rebuffed by Charlotte. Stupid for Charlotte, but that would have been a disasterous move if it had happened.

Dumping Jamison & Butler was good but EG basically knew he had no other option after the Gil fiasco.

But I won't give him a grade until we can fully judge the Seraphin move, and we won't be able to for a while.

[hands11]

Yeah, there we different move that could have been made along the way.

If we have Livingston who I liked, we probably would have not done the Kirk/Seraphin trade. Liv signed a two-year deal worth $7 million. And if we just signed Liv, would we have gone for Wall or traded down for Wesley or someone else?

I will be watching Wesley. But Wall seems to be such a solid even headed humble motivated leader and we really needed that. The fact he is a PG is bonus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03743.html

The Dray talks/rumor was scary. I didn't like hearing that but it didn't happen which is what counts.

[no D in Hibachi]

But that happened before Nov 24th 2009 so that can go in one of the other EG no d threads or Days till EG is fired threads.

It's pretty simple. Just moves made since Nov 24th 2009 and rate him.

That's fair, sorry for hi-jacking your thread. I just have a tough time just drawing a line in the sand and strictly evaluating post Abe. I give him a low 'B-' because he hasn't done anything which will really help the team this year or going forward, but he hasn't run a muck with the teams flexability going forward. I do like the Seraphin deal, however, I don't like how he used 17mill in cap space to get Seraphin when the Thunder got the 18th for 2.5 mill. Well he got rid of AJ so I will give him a solid 'B'. Getting rid of AJ was imparative for the rebuild a rebuild *could* have happened with Butler still around but not AJ.

[JonathanJoseph]

Wow. This thread is proof positive of the anti-EG lens that so many here seem to view things through. Where to start.

1) Numerous posters have gone out of their way to note that the addition of John Wall involved luck, and Ernie must not receive any credit for good luck. Those same posters completely ignore that much of EG's tenure has included horrible luck with injuries and a bizarre off-the-court incident. And those same posters tout Sam Presti, RC Buford and Kevin Pritchard not acknowledging that lottery "luck" has greatly contributed to their success. Grunfeld has had, on the whole, awful luck with the Wiz franchise so discounting the good luck he's had is disingenuous at best.

2) The rhetoric about the #5 for Miller/Foye is ridiculously over the top. It was a bad trade for sure, but not one of you has mentioned that Grunfeld got rid of multiple bad contracts in the deal and took on no long term salaries in return. These are relevant facts when evaluating the trade objectively. The Wiz current favorable cap situation is in part due to that trade. So it's a bad trade, but not anywhere near as bad as some of you are making it.

3) Wasn't that #5 for Miller/Foye trade before Nov 2009? Yeah, because talking about the stellar job Grunfeld has done since then doesn't support previously held biases that suggest Grunfeld isn't good.

4) As for harping on a bad trade, how bout acknowledging what appears to be multiple recent heists? Trading Jamison's contract for a #1 (which in turn became Booker) and Al Thornton looks like a steal. If Seraphin turns out to be a player and Hinrich provides what he's expected to then that trade will also go down as a heist. I notice those trades, which both took place after Nov 2009, aren't referenced in your grades.

But most specifically, I saw in the "Under the Radar" thread these predictions:

CCJ:

This coming season, although I have predicted 40-45 wins and the 8th seed, I think it is entirely possible for the Wizards to win 48 to 50 games.

Dat2u:

If Wall, Arenas & Blatche remain relatively healthy (70 games or more), then we can definitely make the playoffs as a 7th or 8th seed.

I'm not putting words into your mouths, so to speak, but what you are talking about is a ~20 game improvement and the playoffs (which BTW, I agree with). If what YOU predict happens, Grunfeld will be in line for Executive of the Year and the Wiz franchise will be in ridiculously good shape with youth, talent, franchise player(s), and cap flexibility.

Grunfeld's offseason is a B at worst, if things pan out it's a clear and obvious A.

[no D in Hibachi]

And don't forget EG tried to move Blatche for D.J. Augustin prior to Blatche blowing up, only to be rebuffed by Charlotte. Stupid for Charlotte, but that would have been a disasterous move if it had happened.

Yeah, you cannot forget this at all. If this trade went down and Blatche blew up in Charlotte can you imaging the outcry for EG's head? I bet you even LR would turn on EG at that point.

[JonathanJoseph]

But that happened before Nov 24th 2009 so that can go in one of the other EG no d threads or Days till EG is fired threads.

It's pretty simple. Just moves made since Nov 24th 2009 and rate him.

That's fair, sorry for hi-jacking your thread. I just have a tough time just drawing a line in the sand and strictly evaluating post Abe. I give him a low 'B-' because he hasn't done anything which will really help the team this year or going forward, but he hasn't run a muck with the teams flexability going forward. I do like the Seraphin deal, however, I don't like how he used 17mill in cap space to get Seraphin when the Thunder got the 18th for 2.5 mill. Well he got rid of AJ so I will give him a solid 'B'. Getting rid of AJ was imparative for the rebuild a rebuild *could* have happened with Butler still around but not AJ.

But that's not the entirety of the situation. Had Grunfeld NOT acquired Hinrich and his salary, the Wiz would have had to give a 4 year, $16M contract to Steve Blake/Luke Ridnour or the like. A Flip Saunders team needs a credible backup PG. So Grunfeld got a better player on a shorter contract and the only thing he gave up was cap space he wasn't going to use anyway.

[JonathanJoseph]

And don't forget EG tried to move Blatche for D.J. Augustin prior to Blatche blowing up, only to be rebuffed by Charlotte. Stupid for Charlotte, but that would have been a disasterous move if it had happened.

Yeah, you cannot forget this at all. If this trade went down and Blatche blew up in Charlotte can you imaging the outcry for EG's head? I bet you even LR would turn on EG at that point.

Are we really at the point where we are upset with the GM for rumored proposed trades that didn't go down?

[no D in Hibachi]

But that happened before Nov 24th 2009 so that can go in one of the other EG no d threads or Days till EG is fired threads.

It's pretty simple. Just moves made since Nov 24th 2009 and rate him.

That's fair, sorry for hi-jacking your thread. I just have a tough time just drawing a line in the sand and strictly evaluating post Abe. I give him a low 'B-' because he hasn't done anything which will really help the team this year or going forward, but he hasn't run a muck with the teams flexability going forward. I do like the Seraphin deal, however, I don't like how he used 17mill in cap space to get Seraphin when the Thunder got the 18th for 2.5 mill. Well he got rid of AJ so I will give him a solid 'B'. Getting rid of AJ was imparative for the rebuild a rebuild *could* have happened with Butler still around but not AJ.

But that's not the entirety of the situation. Had Grunfeld NOT acquired Hinrich and his salary, the Wiz would have had to give a 4 year, $16M contract to Steve Blake/Luke Ridnour or the like. A Flip Saunders team needs a credible backup PG. So Grunfeld got a better player on a shorter contract and the only thing he gave up was cap space he wasn't going to use anyway.

Or he could have easily signed livingston at 2/7

[montestewart]

And don't forget EG tried to move Blatche for D.J. Augustin prior to Blatche blowing up, only to be rebuffed by Charlotte. Stupid for Charlotte, but that would have been a disasterous move if it had happened.

Yeah, you cannot forget this at all. If this trade went down and Blatche blew up in Charlotte can you imaging the outcry for EG's head? I bet you even LR would turn on EG at that point.

Are we really at the point where we are upset with the GM for rumored proposed trades that didn't go down?

I kind of agree with that. I was troubled to hear about that possible trade, but I prefer to at least try to base my opinion (which has often been quite anti-EG) on things that happened or didn't happen, rather than on what I've heard almost happened or almost didn't happen. Some reports are more credible than others, and I don't completely ignore rumors, but rumors can get a life of their own to the point where I start to question what the truth is, and EG and most other GMs are so tight-lipped and cryptic that you have a hard time telling what the real story is.

A perfect example is the trade w/ Dallas. I feel like EG could have gotten a better deal for moving Haywood, but in the end, he moved Butler and DS, which seemed imperative for the team to move on. Maybe the deal with Portland was real, and maybe Dallas would have given more, but my main evidence is the loud-mouthed Dallas owner's bragging, and the "loaded" Dallas team, w/ Haywood and Butler added, didn't do so hot in the playoffs. If Butler has indeed entered a drastic decline, that trade (which I thought was bad, but far from horrible) may look better and better over time.

[JonathanJoseph]

Or he could have easily signed livingston at 2/7

How do you know this? That's not a scenario that makes sense. Why on earth would Livingston sign to play on a team with John Wall and Gilbert Arenas (much less Hinrich) when he could sign with a team that has DJ Augustin and Matt Carroll in the backcourt?

[no D in Hibachi]

Or he could have easily signed livingston at 2/7

How do you know this? That's not a scenario that makes sense. Why on earth would Livingston sign to play on a team with John Wall and Gilbert Arenas (much less Hinrich) when he could sign with a team that has DJ Augustin and Matt Carroll in the backcourt?

What the heck are you including Hinrich for? In your previous post you said that if we didn't get Hinrich they would ended up getting Blake at 4/16, which is actually not a bad deal. If Hinrich is not here and Livingston is ashured Arenas is a SG there would be plenty of minutes for Livingston and bringing him back would have made a ton of sense for him and the Wiz.

[JonathanJoseph]

Or he could have easily signed livingston at 2/7

How do you know this? That's not a scenario that makes sense. Why on earth would Livingston sign to play on a team with John Wall and Gilbert Arenas (much less Hinrich) when he could sign with a team that has DJ Augustin and Matt Carroll in the backcourt?

What the heck are you including Hinrich for? In your previous post you said that if we didn't get Hinrich they would ended up getting Blake at 4/16, which is actually not a bad deal. If Hinrich is not here and Livingston is ashured Arenas is a SG there would be plenty of minutes for Livingston and bringing him back would have made a ton of sense for him and the Wiz.

Fair enough, let's leave Hinrich out. Why would Livingston sign with a team that has John Wall and Gilbert Arenas?

There's not a real answer to that question. He wouldn't.

[montestewart]

^
It wasn't clear to me how much loyalty Livingston had for DC. He's young, and perhaps feels he's got a long career ahead of him. Money being relatively equal, I figured he might want to go where there's not a #1 pick PG in addition to a former all star PG.

I don't necessarily think Hinrich's $17 million contract was the only answer, but if he doesn't get hurt, he'll probably retain significant trade value. That trade is hard to judge until all is said and done.

As for the discussion about the price paid for the 18th pick vs. the 17th pick, any DC ball fan that thinks one draft spot can't make a big difference has obviously forgotten the name Kenny Green. Sometimes, greatness is a pick away. (Maybe I should have used green font or something.)

[no D in Hibachi]

If the Wiz go with a 3 guard line up as EG has talked about. There will be 36ish minutes for Wall and Areans and 24 minutes per game for the third guard. I doubt Livingston is ashured by Charlotte MGMT that he's going to get a guaranted 24 minutes per game. Everyone says he will surely beat out DJ, but DJ is LB's guy. He doesn't want egg in his face and they let Felton go for a reason. Augustine has a very long rope.