EG post Abe era started Nov 24, 2009 - Eval EG from then

[Kanyewest]

I blame Caron Butler for this past season. He went from posting a PER of 20 in 07-08 to 13.5. He averaged more turnovers per 36 minutes despite handling the ball less. His TS% went down from 56% in 07-08 and 55% in 08-09 to 50%. Butler averaged 1.2 apg, only .2 apg per 36 minutes than Nick Young who had a better assist to turnover ratio than Butler.

Granted, how much you blame management for Caron Butler's downfall is up for debate. Butler playing the SG was a mistake, or at best a work in progress, since Dallas has decided to go that route. And Butler becoming a catch and shoot player was not going to work especially since he was never a very good 3 point shooter. Or maybe Butler just got a bit older and lost 1/2 a step which was the difference for him

[JonathanJoseph]

BTW Michael Jordan was never a BAD GM here.

He was under a DIRECT mandate by Abe Pollin to DRAFT Kwame Brown, TRADE Rip Hamilton, SIGN Bryon Russel, and to PLAY for the Team.

Wes Unseld was under a DIRECT mandate by Abe Pollin to TRADE Chris Webber, OVERPAY Juwan Howard.

You're all pathetic, and you can't erase history. Grunfeld is a PISS POOR Mediocre GM and time will tell with him & Ted, Grunfeld will not be here for the long haul. The man is bound to F up multiple more times in the next couple years.

Get EG's BALLS out of your mouthes OLD MEN.

Just because he's your age, doesn't make him right about everything.

This is a bad strawman argument. An owner giving a mandate of "we are competing for a championship around the 3 guys I'm paying $35M this season" is a lot different than "I direct you to trade the 5th pick for MM/RF".

Further, your insistence on insults and hyperbole suggests a less than compelling argument.

Finally, your insistence that "the man is bound to f uck multiple more times" and "will not be here for the long haul" are going to be proven wrong, like your faulty reasoning.

[hands11]

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/d ... index.html

Ranked 12th when compared to other teams for our offseason moves. Ok, but keep in mind this is only the offseason, not since Nov 24th so it doesn't include all of our moves before the offseason and how they set up up to develop our players and be able to do our off- season picks and cap room. EG should gets extra credit for blowing this up so soon after Abe was out of the picture and for not keeping players like Z, etc. Getting ride of AJ to Cleveland and the CB, Haywood and Sleezy to Dallas are not in here. Nor is getting ride of Mike James and Mini Me.

As ever, the ground rules: my 30-team rankings are for offseason moves only, the things teams have done since they last played a game. It is not a predicted order of finish for next season. It is as much art as science, weighing the impact both of the Draft and free agency, but also assessing whether teams got value in their free-agent signings. Overpaying the right player is as much a sin as signing the wrong player. New coaches, new GMs, new owners and new arenas are also signficant factors in judging a team's summer success, for a good coach can coax some more wins out of a roster, and a new building can generate the kind of revenue necessary to let a team be aggressive in pursuing free agents and trades.

[Kanyewest]

Wes Unseld was under a DIRECT mandate by Abe Pollin to TRADE Chris Webber

I actually think this is true.

[hands11]

Wes Unseld was under a DIRECT mandate by Abe Pollin to TRADE Chris Webber

I actually think this is true.

I don't think that it is a I think thing but lets not rehash all the bad moves that happened back then here. This is why I made a thread like this about what we are doing now. It's all to murky trying to figure out what happen while Abe was owner. I think we can all agree that while he was owner, we were not a very successful franchise. He directed this or that or he was out of touch. I like neither and I'm just glad we are past that. End of story.

He is no longer the owner. Lets look at the moves our GM has made without him or with our new owner who I think most of us trust to direct this franchise a lot better than Abe did. Lets look at what we have. We have Ted now. We can look to the Caps and to AOL to get a read on him.

We have what looks like our best front office combo in a long long time in.
Ted, EG, Flip and Sam. You would have to go back to a 70s Bullets team to find anything near that.
Based on Owner alone, I can't say I would take another owner over Ted. He is the right fit for us.

We have our future picks - except maybe a second next year.
We have cap room and except for Gils contract we are tied down.
We have a very interesting roster with lots of upside.

Best case - we are great. Gil is the bomb. Wall is solid. Dray picks up where he left off and is an All Star. Howard return and is solid. Kirk is solid glue. All we need is a defensive center for that to produce a solid record. Gil and Dray as All Stars and Wall and Howard as quality filler between them. With a defensive center, that is as good or better than anything we had going to the playoffs but we have a better bench that an old AD, McGuire, a young Nick, Mike James, DSlezz, aVis, etc and the conference may be a bit better.

But that core has questions on the downside. There is a chance none of it works.
Gil hasn't played much. He should he healthy but what if. What if he is not right in the head. What if he sucks now. Last season showed he was coming on strong but he is used to being a ball in hand high volume shooter. Well, I still think he gets a lot of shots because Gil, Dray and Howard are the main scorers and Wall will be the PG we never had. He will fill in where needed but I don't expect more than 12-14 per game. He will set everyone up and score when needed. Mostly from the line from driving. But he will average at least 8 assists and play lock down D.

Dray could have been only productive on a bad team. I doubt it. I think he was always good and needed to start at PF but he doesn't have a long enough track record of putting up those numbers enough that people can count them so there is a reasonable reason to question. Besides, Dray had issues off the court and what some saw as an attitude problem. And he broke his foot. But Dray has great feel for the game. He sees the court. He has decent handles and can pass. He doesn't rely on pure athletics to get it done. He is young and hungry. He is slowly maturing. He is working out and getting stronger. Dray is an Lamar on the lower side and a very good Lamar, near a KG on the high side. He showed he can shoot from range and he has some dribble mores to the hoop.

Howard is returning from injury. What if he gets hurt again. What if he isnt good anymore. What if he wants to smoke with Dray. Again, I doubt it but it could be true. I don't expect him to be at his peak but he can shoot and everyone should be more open with Wall, Gil, and Dray out there. Howard only needs to be a third option like Wall while Dray and Gil take most the shots, create, etc inside and out.

Wall - what if he has a bad turnover filled rookie year. Finally someone who we don't have to consider a recent injury. Wall seems strong. But if Wall is struggling, we have Kirk so that is a low risk now. Kirk could even start and Wall back him up. I have no problem with that. Specially if Kirk is starting with Gil, Howard, Dray and Seraphin/Armstrong. Kirk is another PG who will defend. That leaves Wall to run with Nick, AT, Yi and McGee or something like Nick, AT, Booker and McGee. Nick and McGee would go off in that situation. Booker can run like the wind. That could be sick. McGee ally opps. Nick can fly, create and shoot when hot. Booker is athletic, plays D and will run with them.

So we could totally suck, be injured and nothing works.

Or

We could be one of the more dynamic teams in the league.

Not LA championship but at least as good as ATL was only we have more height.

Wall - Maybe not rookie of the year but very exciting and solid
Kirk - Just plan solid vet PG who plays D and makes smart decisions.
Gil could be ALL Star or at least play like one at SG.
Howard a past All Star could is very solid and a great 2nd or 3rd option
Dray could be ALL Star or at least play like one as a primary option.

That is better than any combo we had that made the playoffs. Gil/AD, DS, CB, AJ, Haywood/Etan

Wall/Kirk are an upgrade at PG to Gil/AD
Gil/NY is and upgrade at SG to DS/NY/Dmac etc.
JH/AT/Yi/Booker/NY is better than CB/Jarvis/JJ etc
Dray/Yi is better at PF than AJ/DSong
Center - that is the question. Can Seraphin/Armstrong/McGee fill the roll of Haywood/Fabio

Except for our question at center, this is a better team than the one that went to the playoffs and we have a better coach in Flip. We will play D. And we are stuck with any of these players except Gils long contract.

I am totally stoked about what we have and where we can go.

[sfam]

Post November 29, I'd give EG a B. The only thing I can find real fault with is the Haywood dumping. I would probably have liked Gee to stay here, but I really can't generate enough emotion either way for the guy. Same with Armstrong - its pretty much a "who cares" move. I like giving Yi a chance, as it has little downside (as does the Armstrong signing). Moving Jamison and his salary was terrific GMing.

But again, the real grade comes when we evaluate Seraphin and Booker as compared to other first rounders when they were available. If they are both busts (I doubt Hamady Ndiaye ever plays a day in the NBA but he was near the end of the second round), I don't see how EG could get anything above a C, and could easily be in the "D" range. Seraphin as a bust makes the Hinrich signing look pretty sucky. If Seraphin is solid, and Hinrich brings stability to the backcourt (and Arenas even starts to play D), then you'd have to give EG high marks for that. In any event, it does no good to pine over Poindexter, who also hasn't taken a shot in the NBA.

[Bickerstaff]

You dare say is right, a Wizards forum is not the place to compare our tax statements. I'm sure I've accomplished well more than you or anyone else who chooses to judge me for the content of my Wizards posts, would like to believe.

Who said anything at all about tax statements? If you believe that making money in and of itself means you're contributing to society, then you're an even bigger creep than your other posts in this thread indicate.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

What have you ever accomplished? I dare say that whatever it is that you do, you're far worse at it than Ernie Grunfeld, who by all objective measures is at least decent at his extremely high-level job. It's so easy to go on a message board and type in all caps and act brave and pretend you know what you're talking about. Contribute something worthwhile and then perhaps it will mean something when you try to tear down others. Or be a f'ing man and find Ernie Grunfeld and say these things to his face.

You dare say is right, a Wizards forum is not the place to compare our tax statements. I'm sure I've accomplished well more than you or anyone else who chooses to judge me for the content of my Wizards posts, would like to believe.

I do find this whole conversation ironic, KZ.

[AceDegenerate]

You dare say is right, a Wizards forum is not the place to compare our tax statements. I'm sure I've accomplished well more than you or anyone else who chooses to judge me for the content of my Wizards posts, would like to believe.

Who said anything at all about tax statements? If you believe that making money in and of itself means you're contributing to society, then you're an even bigger creep than your other posts in this thread indicate.

You asked what have I ever accomplished. Plenty. What have I contributed to society now? More than most will.

Now, I watched many a person question every facet of Gilbert Arenas' character/game and I stood up and defended the hate/lies I was reading to the best of my ability. I didn't call out poster's character, I didn't use childish name-calling, I didn't attack anyone for that matter. Yet, it's cool to attack me for voicing my opinion on the GM. Please.

To be honest, as if you couldn't tell by my posts, I couldn't care less about Grunfeld. I don't like being suspended on this site for something as little as sticking up for Arenas in the middle of "Gun-Gate" without using a single curse or slinging a single insult. Then at the same time, bums here can drag my name through the mud and it can be applauded and commended.

Don't like what I have to say, use the ignore feature.

[sfam]

Except for our question at center, this is a better team than the one that went to the playoffs and we have a better coach in Flip. We will play D. And we are stuck with any of these players except Gils long contract.

I am totally stoked about what we have and where we can go.

Agreed. Long term the Wizards are really looking interesting. The only long term question with this roster is what to do with Gil. Short term, it all does come down to the play at center. We need someone who plays D. I'd love it if McGee foots the bill, but I wouldn't count on it. Seraphin may be a few years away, but here's to hoping he plays D right out of the gate.

[sfam]

You dare say is right, a Wizards forum is not the place to compare our tax statements. I'm sure I've accomplished well more than you or anyone else who chooses to judge me for the content of my Wizards posts, would like to believe.

Who said anything at all about tax statements? If you believe that making money in and of itself means you're contributing to society, then you're an even bigger creep than your other posts in this thread indicate.

You asked what have I ever accomplished. Plenty. What have I contributed to society now? More than most will.

Anonymous posters stating their important, but unspecified, generic contributions to society leave me more than a bit perplexed. Seriously, how 'bout we keep the conversation to "what have you contributed to the threads?" At some point the past will be seen as "the past" and you'll have to start living in the "now". How much longer will you still be providing ad hominem attacks on posters "who did you wrong" back during the Gil fiasco? 'Cause the recent attacks on you have nothing to do with that - they're based on what you're posting now.

[hands11]

You dare say is right, a Wizards forum is not the place to compare our tax statements. I'm sure I've accomplished well more than you or anyone else who chooses to judge me for the content of my Wizards posts, would like to believe.

Who said anything at all about tax statements? If you believe that making money in and of itself means you're contributing to society, then you're an even bigger creep than your other posts in this thread indicate.

Is this a pull out your proverbial wang contest ? Wow.

So lay it on us big shot. What cha got that your so proud of ?

[hands11]

sfam

So true. Actually, I don't even usually look at the name of the person who posted. I just read them straight throw. Then I come across something that sounds off and I might look over to see who it was and I see the name and go ahhhhhh. OK.

[hands11]

Except for our question at center, this is a better team than the one that went to the playoffs and we have a better coach in Flip. We will play D. And we are stuck with any of these players except Gils long contract.

I am totally stoked about what we have and where we can go.

Agreed. Long term the Wizards are really looking interesting. The only long term question with this roster is what to do with Gil. Short term, it all does come down to the play at center. We need someone who plays D. I'd love it if McGee foots the bill, but I wouldn't count on it. Seraphin may be a few years away, but here's to hoping he plays D right out of the gate.

I hear ya. That is what I am pulling for. And if not him, we did add Armstrong. Some saw that is a "how cares" pick but it does add some depth defensive center which we need since we want Dray at PF and you can't count on McGee to play defensive center.

It is interesting when you look over a roster. Even on a really good team you'll find these names that you would think... ahhh. Ok. But then they fill a role.

You only need so many stars who need the ball in their hands. Having to many can be very costly and he hard to mix together to get good value for them. On the right team you have role players that fit well and when the timing is right they look a lot better on your team then they would be if they went somewhere else. That is where teams get stuck. Look at Orlando and that dude that was at SG. Name slips my mind. He was good in that system with that team. Tall white dude. Turk

I'm not sold that Wade and LeBron will work out good per value of their contracts. If LeBron plays PG mostly it could work but like Wall and Gil, both Wade and LeBron are used to having the ball in their hands and they are talking about adding a PG. While Wall and Gil are not LeBron and Wade, we also aren't paying that price and I like Gils chances of learning to play without the ball in his hand as good or better than Wade or LeDouche or both adjusting. And I have seen Dray outplay Bosh and Dray is no where near the cost of Bosh. Personally, I think Miami would be best letting LB play PG but then how is he going to keep up with Wall.

Miami should be good. Adding a MM was good for them. I liked Mike. He is a good fit to not over shoot, as we know, with those three. He will get wide open and hit shots and he will hustle. Nice pick up. They would also be big if LB plays PG they have things to work out if they are to match up with other teams.

But I also like our combo of Wall, Gil, Howard, and Dray. Specially since it is so much cheaper and no long term deal except Gil. These aren't for sure our final pieces so I'm cool with that.

If we end up being Wall, Gil, Melo and Dray then I have no problem putting that up against Wade, LeQueen and Bosh.

Wall vs who
Wade vs Gil - Wade is better but if Gil finds his D if could be a lot closer
LB vs Melo - I call that even if not a not to Melo
Bosh vs Dray - I'll take Dray and his upside and contract

That leaves center.

[AceDegenerate]

Wtf? I have nothing to be proud of. I was questioned and I answer. Simple.

[Brenice]

I gave EG a grade of C. Why? Because D is not an option.

* OPech was a flat out miss and was redundant to boot as we already had Blatche. (that was not Pollins fault). Passed on Rondo, Milsap, etc. Both are better than OPech.

* Passing on DaJuan Blair when we have needed a physical strong rebounder for years.

* trading the 5th pick for a salary dump of Etan and OPech(see first mistake listed) and two 1 year rentals. Could have drafted Curry or Jennings. People want to say it worked out in that we lucked up and got Wall. Sure Ernie lucked out. But if we had Curry, and the season ended up being lost and we were left with a lower lottery pick, say the 5th pick, we could have drafted Cousins and have Gil, Curry, Blatche, Cousins, McGee.

[Brenice]

Post Abe the grade is "to be determined"

* He put his neck out for Seraphin, a green post player with no offense. Sounds to me like he may be the type to stay in foul trouble.

* traded up for Booker - debatable of whether he is worth it, as he is undersized.

* team will be cap-friendly and have space to sign a significant player, but who? If Melo doesn't re-up with Denver, who else is out there? + Melo wants to play with Amare, so scratch him off. Durant and Gay re-upped with OKC and Memphis, respectively. Wade, Queen, Dirk, Bosh, Amare, signed new contracts. Who is looming to be signed? It looks like the free agent cupboard will be bare so any cap-space could be fool's gold.

[fishercob]

Ugh. This thread is the anti-"should we trade Gil for cap space thread." I have to sift through so much garbage to get to any well-argued discussion.

To the question at "hands," the simple answer is "incomplete." How can we possibly evaluate Ernie's moves until this new team plays a season or two? The rush to grade everything is is counterproductive. There's a lot of nuance and shades of gray -- everything isn't simply good or bad.

I agree with nate that the Jamison trade was great. However, it looks better because Lebron is in Miami. If he was still in Cleveland and they had a better coach than Mike Brown they could be NBA champions right now working on #2.

I'm still annoyed about the Dallas trade. Yes, it's great that Stevenson and Butler are no longer our problems. But we either should have gotten a real asset for Haywood or we should have kept him here (and we'd have ended up with a large TPE for him by S&T'ing him this summer)

I agree with what Dat has been saying for some time -- Ernie Grunfeld is an average NBA GM. He's good enough to win a title with the right about of support, resources, and luck. And as we've seen, he's bad enough to steer the Titanic into a big old iceberg.

Case in point is the Miller/Foye trade. I do believe he had a "win now" mandate. But I also believe he didn't realize that drafting Curry was a better "win now" strategy than making the deal. And even if he had a "trade the pick" mandate, he did a terrible job getting value back for it.

In Ernie's defense, I think a lot of that comes down to resources. Ted is going to give him a lot more tools at his disposal than Abe did -- a well-funded stats department, scouts (domestic and international), D-league, etc. Ernie's kind of like a kid who gets crappy grades. Yeah, it's his fault, but his parents are the ones who need to keep it from happening nonetheless.

[AceDegenerate]

sfam

So true. Actually, I don't even usually look at the name of the person who posted. I just read them straight throw. Then I come across something that sounds off and I might look over to see who it was and I see the name and go ahhhhhh. OK.

This forum is such a joke. YOU were King Clown around here last season.

Now you're part of the clique, how sweet.

I'm done here for now, you can all return to your regularly scheduled programming.

I'll only be back to gloat on how wrong you all were on Gilbert, and to remind not to cheer for him when you hated him 6 months ago.

I'll be smoking Trees in Belize when they find me.

[Bickerstaff]

So lay it on us big shot. What cha got that your so proud of ?

How about the sense to not act like I know more than everyone else and the decency to not go around telling people I disagree with to put someone's balls in their mouth? Also, the ability to properly use your/you're.

(Hmm... Krizko and I both think you were talking to us. Sorry if I blew up on you for no reason )