Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

[Jvaughn]

And as i've said before I don't believe Rondo is better than Rose. There was a full segment on NBA on TNT this year where they had that argument. Put CP3, D-Wil, and Rose in the same car, and said Rondo is following that car right now, but he's not there yet. Not the other way around. I don't put Nash there anymore either. JMO, but he's no longer in that conversation, and I do believe this year will cement that fact. Rose is top 3 at best, top 4 at worst. And even if Bron is moved to PG, he's not a PG. It's just a case of not having a better option in Miami.

This is where you lose credibility. The top 3 players in the NBA are 1. Lebron 2. Wade 3. Nash.

If you don't think Steve Nash is a top 4 pg right now, I just don't know what to tell you. That's outrageous. Here are some thought experiments for you...

Switch Rose to the Suns last year. Are they a crazy Ron Artest put back away from the NBA finals and likely champions? (they swept Boston in the regular season)

What's a better lineup 2-5.

J Richardson
Grant Hill
Channing Frye
Amar'e Stoudemire

or

Ray Allen
Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett
Kendrick Perkins

Add Steve Nash to the celtics to have

Nash
Allen
Pierce
Garnett
Perkins

HOW GOOD IS THAT TEAM?

The phoenix Suns had the best offense in the NBA the last year (as by points per 100 possessions)

In fact, I think there is some crazy stat like the 5 greatest offensive teams in NBA history have all been led by Steve Nash. He is also according to Hollinger the greatest shooter in NBA history, and by his estimation "by a mile."

He is easily the greatest offensive player currently in the league, and quite possible of all time. defensively, we know . he is sub par.

Yet you wouldn't find this just based on tradition box score stats. You have to understand how well his team plays when he is on the floor and how he makes other players better.

Does Derrick Rose have this ability?

Can he make the players around him better?

Well that's where you're just wrong. Nash is not top 3 player. Kobe, KD, Melo, and Dirk might have something to say about that. And yeah Nash to the Celtics would have won. What's your point? Kevin Durant to the Spurs might have won. I don't get the point there. And Rose on the Suns in the right system with actual weapons is a championship contender easily.

Nash is not the greatest offensive player in the league, nor is he close. I don't know what you're getting at there. He's a very good one, but there are much better offensive players than him. I understand he's a good floor general, but how does that make him the best offensive player. Rondo is a good floor general and a terrible offensive player.

Derrick does have that ability as well. He carried a team of Deng, Kirk, Taj, and Noah to the playoffs after a 10 game losing streak. Give him the chance to see what he can do with competent players in the right role, and with a competent coach. I guarantee we win at least 50 games this year.

[cool007]

So, in your opinon... Rose = Rondo on defense?

Honestly?

I dont care how overrated Rondo is on defense. Hes still MUCH MUCH better than Rose is. Rose is flat out bad on defense man. You disagree on that too?

No, Rondo is better for now but don't act like Rondo is a MUCH MUCH better defender either. MUCH MUCH better would mean he is shutting down all the point guards he is facing and that is farthest from the truth.

Stats back it up too.

Here are the Point guards (briefly looked at it on NBA.com). and their highs past year vs Rondo and vs Rose.

Andre Miller: vs Rondo (28 points 8 rebounds 8 assists), vs Rose (14 points 3 rebounds 7 assists)
C. Billups: vs Rondo (26/7), vs Rose (21/5)
Rose vs Rondo (39/5/7), Rondo vs Rose (16/14)
CP3: vs Rondo (22/8), vs Rose (15/7)
Aaron Brooks: vs Rondo (30/9), vs Rose (20/2)
Baron Davis: vs Rondo (24/13), vs Rose (22/6)
Johny Flynn: vs Rondo (21 points), vs Rose (14 points)
Devin Harris: vs Rondo (23 points), vs Rose (19 points)
Jameer Nelson: vs Rondo (15/4), vs Rose (11/6)


There may be more but I don't have time for it. The above sample is good enough.

So whatever the perception usually people have about someone, is usually NOT the reality.

I won't say Rose's defense is great, but he is not a liability and you rarely see some other PG torching him. While as the above stats show that a lot of the PGs HAVE torched Rondo - but is called a MUCH MUCH better defensive PG.

[TAI8]

He made the all star team in his second year. Only current players to have done that are Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Kidd, Carter, Yao, LeBron, Wade, and Roy. /thread

[cool007]

He made the all star team in his second year. Only current players to have done that are Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Kidd, Carter, Yao, LeBron, Wade, and Roy. /thread

Combine that with that he was ONLY 21 years old and made it in the 2nd year, and the list comes down to Kobe/LeBron/KG (Shaq??).

That's PRETTY impressive.

[KushIsMyCologne]

He made the all star team in his second year. Only current players to have done that are Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Kidd, Carter, Yao, LeBron, Wade, and Roy. /thread

+Idiot repellant

[Jvaughn]

He made the all star team in his second year. Only current players to have done that are Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Kidd, Carter, Yao, LeBron, Wade, and Roy. /thread

+Idiot repellant

Don't worry, one of them will retort with "Fans vote for the all-stars, so it doesn't count" Even though Rose got voted in by league officials and not fans.

[realist1981]

who the hell are you?

[jinxed]

And as i've said before I don't believe Rondo is better than Rose. There was a full segment on NBA on TNT this year where they had that argument. Put CP3, D-Wil, and Rose in the same car, and said Rondo is following that car right now, but he's not there yet. Not the other way around. I don't put Nash there anymore either. JMO, but he's no longer in that conversation, and I do believe this year will cement that fact. Rose is top 3 at best, top 4 at worst. And even if Bron is moved to PG, he's not a PG. It's just a case of not having a better option in Miami.

This is where you lose credibility. The top 3 players in the NBA are 1. Lebron 2. Wade 3. Nash.

If you don't think Steve Nash is a top 4 pg right now, I just don't know what to tell you. That's outrageous. Here are some thought experiments for you...

Switch Rose to the Suns last year. Are they a crazy Ron Artest put back away from the NBA finals and likely champions? (they swept Boston in the regular season)

What's a better lineup 2-5.

J Richardson
Grant Hill
Channing Frye
Amar'e Stoudemire

or

Ray Allen
Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett
Kendrick Perkins

Add Steve Nash to the celtics to have

Nash
Allen
Pierce
Garnett
Perkins

HOW GOOD IS THAT TEAM?

The phoenix Suns had the best offense in the NBA the last year (as by points per 100 possessions)

In fact, I think there is some crazy stat like the 5 greatest offensive teams in NBA history have all been led by Steve Nash. He is also according to Hollinger the greatest shooter in NBA history, and by his estimation "by a mile."

He is easily the greatest offensive player currently in the league, and quite possible of all time. defensively, we know . he is sub par.

Yet you wouldn't find this just based on tradition box score stats. You have to understand how well his team plays when he is on the floor and how he makes other players better.

Does Derrick Rose have this ability?

Can he make the players around him better?

Well that's where you're just wrong. Nash is not top 3 player. Kobe, KD, Melo, and Dirk might have something to say about that. And yeah Nash to the Celtics would have won. What's your point? Kevin Durant to the Spurs might have won. I don't get the point there. And Rose on the Suns in the right system with actual weapons is a championship contender easily.

Nash is not the greatest offensive player in the league, nor is he close. I don't know what you're getting at there. He's a very good one, but there are much better offensive players than him. I understand he's a good floor general, but how does that make him the best offensive player. Rondo is a good floor general and a terrible offensive player.

Derrick does have that ability as well. He carried a team of Deng, Kirk, Taj, and Noah to the playoffs after a 10 game losing streak. Give him the chance to see what he can do with competent players in the right role, and with a competent coach. I guarantee we win at least 50 games this year.

You are right that we should give Derrick Rose a chance and he is very young. I'm not convinced but we will see. I don't think he has the basketball IQ.

My point with Nash to the Celtics is that they would have won and you agreed. Yet with Rondo they didn't win. All i was saying was that Nash is better than Rondo. You had Rondo ahead of Nash in your rankings.

As for why Nash is the best offensive player in the league...

He leads the league in this stat every single year

http://www.82games.com/ilardi2o.htm#table

It means that the Suns plays 10 points better per average on offense per game with Nash on the Court.

Which really is the measure by which players should be judged. How much better do they make there team.

[YounG_A]

Dude I remember most of those. The majority of them that said MVP were during a game when fans were being sarcastic. Kind of like when we say trade Rose, because we have JJ. Its just reaction to a shot Rose probably made.

As for the other ones: Rose is on a climb that resembles the statistical production of CP3, D-Wil, Wade and Brandon Roy's. The difference being with the exception of Wade, all of those players could already shoot the 3 ball. Rose is doing the same thing without the 3 ball. I.E Rose with a 3pt shot is on the same level as Wade. Not now, but when Rose is at the same point in his career as Wade it is not that farfetched.

Rose being the most dominant PG since Isiah, I dont see the problem. Scoring wise can you name me a PG that has scored with the ease of Rose since Zeke? I can't. Rose is in his 2nd year, and is almost unguardable. That's what he's talking about.

those were all quotes from this offseason, none from a game thread.

but nice of you to create excuses

[Jvaughn]

This is where you lose credibility. The top 3 players in the NBA are 1. Lebron 2. Wade 3. Nash.

If you don't think Steve Nash is a top 4 pg right now, I just don't know what to tell you. That's outrageous. Here are some thought experiments for you...

Switch Rose to the Suns last year. Are they a crazy Ron Artest put back away from the NBA finals and likely champions? (they swept Boston in the regular season)

What's a better lineup 2-5.

J Richardson
Grant Hill
Channing Frye
Amar'e Stoudemire

or

Ray Allen
Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett
Kendrick Perkins

Add Steve Nash to the celtics to have

Nash
Allen
Pierce
Garnett
Perkins

HOW GOOD IS THAT TEAM?

The phoenix Suns had the best offense in the NBA the last year (as by points per 100 possessions)

In fact, I think there is some crazy stat like the 5 greatest offensive teams in NBA history have all been led by Steve Nash. He is also according to Hollinger the greatest shooter in NBA history, and by his estimation "by a mile."

He is easily the greatest offensive player currently in the league, and quite possible of all time. defensively, we know . he is sub par.

Yet you wouldn't find this just based on tradition box score stats. You have to understand how well his team plays when he is on the floor and how he makes other players better.

Does Derrick Rose have this ability?

Can he make the players around him better?

Well that's where you're just wrong. Nash is not top 3 player. Kobe, KD, Melo, and Dirk might have something to say about that. And yeah Nash to the Celtics would have won. What's your point? Kevin Durant to the Spurs might have won. I don't get the point there. And Rose on the Suns in the right system with actual weapons is a championship contender easily.

Nash is not the greatest offensive player in the league, nor is he close. I don't know what you're getting at there. He's a very good one, but there are much better offensive players than him. I understand he's a good floor general, but how does that make him the best offensive player. Rondo is a good floor general and a terrible offensive player.

Derrick does have that ability as well. He carried a team of Deng, Kirk, Taj, and Noah to the playoffs after a 10 game losing streak. Give him the chance to see what he can do with competent players in the right role, and with a competent coach. I guarantee we win at least 50 games this year.

You are right that we should give Derrick Rose a chance and he is very young. I'm not convinced but we will see. I don't think he has the basketball IQ.

My point with Nash to the Celtics is that they would have won and you agreed. Yet with Rondo they didn't win. All i was saying was that Nash is better than Rondo. You had Rondo ahead of Nash in your rankings.

As for why Nash is the best offensive player in the league...

He leads the league in this stat every single year

http://www.82games.com/ilardi2o.htm#table

It means that the Suns plays 10 points better per average on offense per game with Nash on the Court.

Which really is the measure by which players should be judged. How much better do they make there team.

I agreed, because scoring isn't the whole game. Nash has proved that by not being able to take that team to the finals.

[Jvaughn]

Dude I remember most of those. The majority of them that said MVP were during a game when fans were being sarcastic. Kind of like when we say trade Rose, because we have JJ. Its just reaction to a shot Rose probably made.

As for the other ones: Rose is on a climb that resembles the statistical production of CP3, D-Wil, Wade and Brandon Roy's. The difference being with the exception of Wade, all of those players could already shoot the 3 ball. Rose is doing the same thing without the 3 ball. I.E Rose with a 3pt shot is on the same level as Wade. Not now, but when Rose is at the same point in his career as Wade it is not that farfetched.

Rose being the most dominant PG since Isiah, I dont see the problem. Scoring wise can you name me a PG that has scored with the ease of Rose since Zeke? I can't. Rose is in his 2nd year, and is almost unguardable. That's what he's talking about.

those were all quotes from this offseason, none from a game thread.

but nice of you to create excuses

Just as nice as it was for you not to comment on the important parts. Anyway what thread did you get that from. I dont think people just woke up and decided to write Rose for MVP. Something provoked them im sure.

[coldfish]

Wow. I'm a Bulls fan. This thread has convinced me that Derrick Rose sucks. I'm very depressed now. My eyes pre-deceived me.

I don't know where the adjusted +/- stuff comes from. From 82games.com, Derrick had the second highest +/- on the team out of the regular players.

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CHI.HTM

Well, Deng was first, and we all know he REALLY sucks. So, if Derrick is worse than a guy who REALLY sucks then Derrick must REALLY REALLY suck.

[Dobber-16]

He made the all star team in his second year. Only current players to have done that are Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, KG, Kidd, Carter, Yao, LeBron, Wade, and Roy. /thread

+Idiot repellant

Don't worry, one of them will retort with "Fans vote for the all-stars, so it doesn't count" Even though Rose got voted in by league officials and not fans.

The large TV market of Chicago demands a player from the local team, deserving or not.

[BULLS333]

36 pts first playoff game vs rondo

[dhh2h]

Derrick Rose is good

[Dr Genius]

I love how people underrate players by bringing up the basketball IQ nonsense, while being ignorant of their own claim. Most of these d-bags equate basketball IQ with actually book IQ.

While he is not the brightest crayon in the box, Derrick Rose has a very high basketball IQ, as demonstrated by his efficiency and shot selection.

[taurophobia]

i swear im sick of idiots throwing around basketball iq like its a stat posted somewhere from the draft combine

until they actually start making players take written basketball iq tests every season, your argument using basketball iq as an excuse is invalid

ive met alot of very smart people who get nervous talking in front of camera's

just because derrick freezes up and says "ummmmmmmmmmm" alot while he thinks is not a measure of his brains, more a matter of habit while he thinks of an appropriate answer lol

derrick rose is good, and im not just being a bulls homer here
just sick of the argument, watch games, actually watch them, u will see

[IllinoisReppa20]

-5.8 adjusted plus / minus according to basketball value.

-38 raw plus/minus on the year, despite playing for playoff team.

Not the end all be all of discussion those stats, however, I have my doubts he knows how to run a team. Fast and explosive yes...a smart floor general..? A good shooter? a good defender?

What's more important in a point guard?

put it like this .. fcuk PER MER STER AND WER.. what other PGs would u swap straight up 4 d rose besides d williams and cp..dont worry us chi bulls fans will wait..

[sonny]

He's not good, he can't even go left.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

Rose sucks. He cant shoot to save his life