Prove to me Derrick Rose is Good.

[ahonui06]

If the OP doesn't think Derrick Rose is good then he obviously knows nothing about basketball. He's a top 5 PG in the East and arguably in the NBA.

[Legendary 33]

Yeah. If I recall correctly, Milwaukee's only actual front court player, Bogut, missed the final run in of 13 games, plus the playoffs. Dan Gadzuric and Mbah a Moute as a starting front court for 13 games? Scary. If I remember correctly, Michael Redd sat out the whole season too. The Bucks won more games than they lost in that period, with Jennings leading the team. Fair comparison, no?

No, not really. Jennings wasn't "leading" anything. The Bucks were atleast 3 or 4 games below .500 and weren't a top 8 team in the East before they acquired Salmons. Salmons & Bogut (before injury) is the reason that team made the playoffs, Jennings was but a small contributor.

The Bulls, before losing 10 games in a row due to the injury bug, were on pace to contend with the 5th or 6th spot with Milwaukee.

Also, since when is losing Michael Redd a good thing Most Bucks that I've spoken too have told me he's almost like a negative when he plays.

Rose is better than Jennings, and even most Bucks fans have conceded that fact.

[Rerisen]

Legendary has asked a few times and I know I've asked on occassion to, but no one has answered. So I will ask again: What is the definition of a true PG? Because there seems to be some gray area that im missing. I have a few things I need from my "true PG":

Increasingly around here, it seems to mean, "sucks on offense", and meekly passes the ball around like Chris Duhon or something, while passing up open shots.

Or if a PG *is* a good scorer there is an expectation that their passing rises in greatness with their scoring, like Deron or Paul, or else they are no longer true point guards.

Derrick Rose is without a doubt a point guard. He is not a combo, he is not a shooting guard. He's just a great scoring PG, with average vision. There are a lot of crap scoring PG's in the league with average passing (same as Derrick in this regard) and you don't see anyone calling them not true PG's.

Rose's passing is on par with the Bulls last PG, Kirk Hinrich, and no one called Hinrich not a true PG.

According to some of the bars set here on RealGM, there must only be 4 or 5 "true" PG's in the entire league. As true PG for some seems to mean nothing less than whizzing passes around like Kidd and Paul. Only 5 players in the league averaged 9 assists last year, and only 8 averaged 8 assists.

Rose is a scoring point guard but a real point guard all the same. In the mold of a Tony Parker or Chauncey Billups mentality wise, though with higher potential.

[lukekarts]

Yeah. If I recall correctly, Milwaukee's only actual front court player, Bogut, missed the final run in of 13 games, plus the playoffs. Dan Gadzuric and Mbah a Moute as a starting front court for 13 games? Scary. If I remember correctly, Michael Redd sat out the whole season too. The Bucks won more games than they lost in that period, with Jennings leading the team. Fair comparison, no?

No, not really. Jennings wasn't "leading" anything. The Bucks were atleast 3 or 4 games below .500 and weren't a top 8 team in the East before they acquired Salmons. Salmons & Bogut (before injury) is the reason that team made the playoffs, Jennings was but a small contributor.

The Bulls, before losing 10 games in a row due to the injury bug, were on pace to contend with the 5th or 6th spot with Milwaukee.

Also, since when is losing Michael Redd a good thing Most Bucks that I've spoken too have told me he's almost like a negative when he plays.

Rose is better than Jennings, and even most Bucks fans have conceded that fact.

Jennings still lead the team. If you watched Bucks games you'd see he was running the show. He's a pretty vocal leader for a rookie.

Anyway, if you're attributing Milwaukee's success to Salmons, don't forget he played 51 games for Chicago. Why didn't Rose get as much out of him as BJ? He was more efficient in Milwaukee and he set his PPG season high.

If...

Derrick Rose > Jennings (almost equal no. of games)
Salmons for 51 games > Salmons for 30 games
Deng for 70 games > Delfino for 75 games
Gibson for 82 games > LRMaM for 73 games
Noah for 64 games < Bogut for 69 games

why did Milwaukee have a better record than Chicago?

Is Bogut that much better than Noah? Or is Jennings better than Rose at extracting more from his supporting cast?

[Joel Embust]

-5.8 adjusted plus / minus according to basketball value.

-38 raw plus/minus on the year, despite playing for playoff team.

[alucryts]

Yeah. If I recall correctly, Milwaukee's only actual front court player, Bogut, missed the final run in of 13 games, plus the playoffs. Dan Gadzuric and Mbah a Moute as a starting front court for 13 games? Scary. If I remember correctly, Michael Redd sat out the whole season too. The Bucks won more games than they lost in that period, with Jennings leading the team. Fair comparison, no?

No, not really. Jennings wasn't "leading" anything. The Bucks were atleast 3 or 4 games below .500 and weren't a top 8 team in the East before they acquired Salmons. Salmons & Bogut (before injury) is the reason that team made the playoffs, Jennings was but a small contributor.

The Bulls, before losing 10 games in a row due to the injury bug, were on pace to contend with the 5th or 6th spot with Milwaukee.

Also, since when is losing Michael Redd a good thing Most Bucks that I've spoken too have told me he's almost like a negative when he plays.

Rose is better than Jennings, and even most Bucks fans have conceded that fact.

Jennings still lead the team. If you watched Bucks games you'd see he was running the show. He's a pretty vocal leader for a rookie.

Anyway, if you're attributing Milwaukee's success to Salmons, don't forget he played 51 games for Chicago. Why didn't Rose get as much out of him as BJ? He was more efficient in Milwaukee and he set his PPG season high.

If...

Derrick Rose > Jennings (almost equal no. of games)
Salmons for 51 games > Salmons for 30 games
Deng for 70 games > Delfino for 75 games
Gibson for 82 games > LRMaM for 73 games
Noah for 64 games < Bogut for 69 games

why did Milwaukee have a better record than Chicago?

Is Bogut that much better than Noah? Or is Jennings better than Rose at extracting more from his supporting cast?

two reasons: the bulls had another one of their slow as hell starts and fast finishes, and once again salmons played like crap until he was traded to another team for the second year in a row. he was much better in milwaukee's system than chicago's because in chicago he was asked to shoot a lot more 3s. we didnt need him to shoot 2's that he creates off the dribble, his real strength. you cant look at teams based on 5 1v1's. you need to look at the whole season. also the bulls depth kinda sucked lol. if both teams are healthy the whole season they would finish with about the same record imo

[Jvaughn]

If the OP doesn't think Derrick Rose is good then he obviously knows nothing about basketball. He's a top 5 PG in the East and arguably in the NBA.

Top 2 in the East, top 5 in the league.

[Rerisen]

Anyway, if you're attributing Milwaukee's success to Salmons, don't forget he played 51 games for Chicago. Why didn't Rose get as much out of him as BJ? He was more efficient in Milwaukee and he set his PPG season high.

How about we don't forget 2009? Salmons played as well for the Bulls (with Rose as the PG) as he did with the Bucks then. In fact, his scoring efficiency was even higher with the Bulls in 09 than with the Bucks.

Salmons is an isolation based player. The PG doesn't "get as much out of him" one way or the other because Salmons rises and falls on his own game.

He played over his head for the Bucks last year, just like he did for the Bulls in 09 after we got him in mid season trade. He has yet to put together a full season where he has performed to that degree. And depending that he will because one thinks Jennings is some kind of supernatural game raiser of his teammates is asking for trouble.

As for the team record differences, I'd cite two things. First injuries. Despite Bogut's injury the Bulls still lost more games from their starters (40 total from Rose/Kirk/Deng/Noah) than the Bucks did. That's not counting the first month and a half when Derrick played on a bum ankle either (with a > 15 PER during that time).

The Bulls win % with all their starters healthy last year was world's better than they finished.

We were also a very thin team after the deadline when we cleared space for 2010, so the Bulls had no capacity to absorb injuries. It meant playing players like Pargo and Flip Murray big minutes, who were terrible. This year the team will be much deeper.

Lastly, coaching. I'd be perfectly fine crediting +5 Bucks wins last year to Scott Skiles, considering how hard and well the team played together under him last year. Meanwhile, the Bulls had a coach still learning on the job, who frequently ran 3 plays the entire game, mismanaged the clock, and generally offered little leadership on either end. Tom Thibodeau could be an average coach and would still end up better prepared than Vinny ever was I suspect.

[crosswalkryan]

It all comes down to coaching imo.

Scott Skiles was WAYYY better than Vinnie Del Negro.

[DanielBoone]

another day, another day of lack of proof that Rose is better than Gilbert.

[Rerisen]

another day, another day of lack of proof that Rose is better than Gilbert.

I bet in Tracy McGrady's mind, he's still as good as Kobe too. Unfortunately its 2010 now.

[DanielBoone]

another day, another day of lack of proof that Rose is better than Gilbert.

I bet in Tracy McGrady's mind, he's still as good as Kobe too. Unfortunately its 2010 now.

another idiotic bulls homer comparison of Gilbert to TMac. FWI, Gilbert last season with all the distractions and comin off injury still averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and steals in less minutes than your golden boy. u mad?

[KushIsMyCologne]

another day, another day of lack of proof that Rose is better than Gilbert.

I bet in Tracy McGrady's mind, he's still as good as Kobe too. Unfortunately its 2010 now.

another idiotic bulls homer comparison of Gilbert to TMac. FWI, Gilbert last season with all the distractions and comin off injury still averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and steals in less minutes than your golden boy. u mad?

No because Agent Zero was at home polishing his guns or in jail polishing some poles while Rose was getting his undersized SG on and leading his undertalented team to the playoffs. U Mad?

[DanielBoone]

No because Agent Zero was at home polishing his guns or in jail polishing some poles while Rose was getting his undersized SG on and leading his undertalented team to the playoffs. U Mad?

not mad, not even a wizards fan I am just rational enough to realize that on the court, Gilbert is a better basketball player than Rose

[Legendary 33]

No, he really isn't. 20 something games isn't a large enough sample size of that, and Gilbert hasn't been Gilbert for 3 seasons. Nobody is saying Rose is better than THAT Gilbert (who was a top 10 player and a top 2 PG in the league, I'll be thrilled if/when Rose gets better than him) but the Gilbert today is a washed up, injured, trouble-making ballhog..I'll take Rose over him every day of the week.

[Rerisen]

another day, another day of lack of proof that Rose is better than Gilbert.

I bet in Tracy McGrady's mind, he's still as good as Kobe too. Unfortunately its 2010 now.

another idiotic bulls homer comparison of Gilbert to TMac. FWI, Gilbert last season with all the distractions and comin off injury still averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and steals in less minutes than your golden boy. u mad?

32 games. Funny I didn't see him in the All-Star Game like D Rose.

Get back to me when he plays a full season.

[Rerisen]

but the Gilbert today is a washed up

Indeed his last 3 seasons, his scoring efficiency has been pretty poor.

I could easily see him becoming the next Iverson, chucking shots like he's still got his game, and not accepting that he's a role player now. Especially with the Wizards being Wall's to run now.

[Jvaughn]

I bet in Tracy McGrady's mind, he's still as good as Kobe too. Unfortunately its 2010 now.

another idiotic bulls homer comparison of Gilbert to TMac. FWI, Gilbert last season with all the distractions and comin off injury still averaged more points, rebounds, assists, and steals in less minutes than your golden boy. u mad?

32 games. Funny I didn't see him in the All-Star Game like D Rose.

Get back to me when he plays a full season.

Guess he won't be getting back to you anytime soon since Gilbert has played less than 50 games in the last 3 seasons. You might as well make the argument that Oden is better than Noah as well. It's a better argument than the present day Gilbert vs Rose.

[DanielBoone]

oh man that 2% difference in TS% is crazy. Rose=superefficient Arenas=chucker. that 2% totally overrides the points assists rebounds and steals in less minutes. idiots

[Rerisen]

oh man that 2% difference in TS% is crazy. Rose=superefficient Arenas=chucker. that 2% totally overrides the points assists rebounds and steals in less minutes. idiots

And if Rose's TS% had been that the whole year, Bulls fans would still be on him about it.

But the reality is that his efficiency stunk for about the first month and a half when he was playing on a bum ankle, and then it steadily rose and rose (no pun intended) pretty much every month of the season.

Post All-Star his efficiency was in the .570's, that's higher than Wade and Kobe.

Rose and Gilbert's careers are two ships passing in different directions right now.