Can Amar'e be better without Nash?

[Lin Your Face]

Amare and Nash are both really good players who played well together. Neither of them held the other one back or made them the star they are.

[nyqua11]

stoudemire's finding of the open man will be vital to the knicks success as part of an inside-outside game-- just as vital as him finishing on a pick and roll, which of course is outside-inside. this will create a much more flowing, dangerous, and unpredictable offense.

i want to see him score about 24 points but on no more than 16 shots, snag 9 rebounds, and most importantly dish out 4 assists-- something closer to a garnett-like game. garnett is a terrific passer and that is why he has been considered the better player, along with stellar defense.

So Amare is suddenly going to become a great passer? He's had a pretty terrible assist rate and assist:turnover rate his entire career. What makes you think he's going to suddenly get 4 assists per game?

[richardhutnik]

Place where Amar'e shows improvement is not in box score, but in intangibles. He may have numbers that are worse, but have a bigger impact on the team. Things like leadership will be shown elsewhere.

- Rich

[old skool]

But Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Quinten Richardson and Shawn Marion never matched their Phoenix numbers when they left from being under Nash's guiding hand. So we will see.

I think that part of the drop off statistically for those players was due to the transition to a slower paced offense. Stoudemaire is not moving to an offense that is that much slower paced, so he should be able to maintain the inflated stat line that he had in Phoenix.

Nash helped Stoudemaire a lot, but Stoudemaire should help Felton and others on the 2010-11 Knicks. The guy is an offensive machine.

As for the comparisons with Lee, I think that most NBA pundits who valued Lee over Stoudemaire were afraid of Stoudemaire's knee. Micro-fracture surgery requires a second operation in the overwhelming number of cases. The way I read it, this has little to do with evaluating Stoudemaire's knee and everything to do with understanding the normal result of a first micro-fracture surgery. That health problem is the reason why the Knicks were the only team to offer him a max contract.

oLd sKool

[TKF]

Im feeling the same way. This guy wanted a change. Everyone says he put up the numbers he did because of Nash. But Amare is so much more than a log catcher now. He has enjoyed being in NY. I think he is going to have the best year of his career. Baring injury or the addition of a 28 ppg scorer.

I agree.. If healthy amare can have a monster.. quickness a good jumper, and exlposive near the hoop, amare is going to be a nightmare to guard. He now has options offensively, other than the pick and roll... for instance, he drove baseline during the game, found turaif with nice pass for a wide open dunk.. Just thinks you didn't see him do in pheonix.. he was a finisher, Now I think he has the chance to be a little creatvie with the ball..... we will see..

[boomann21]

I just hope he rebounds better. He is so quick on the jump that it's no reason that he shouldn't average double digit rebounds. So if he does anything better without Nash I am hoping it's that aspect of his game.

[NyKnicks1714]

I just hope he rebounds better. He is so quick on the jump that it's no reason that he shouldn't average double digit rebounds. So if he does anything better without Nash I am hoping it's that aspect of his game.

I kind of agree with you here. Rebounding and defense are the only areas of his game I feel Amare can improve if he wants to. I don't think he will, but it's what I'm hoping for.

[Synciere]

Amare can and will put up similar numbers scoring-wise. The question will be how well he works with Felton for the easy finishes around the hoop. As pointed out earlier, it'll be about his efficiency and percentages.

[2010]

Amare can and will put up similar numbers scoring-wise. The question will be how well he works with Felton for the easy finishes around the hoop. As pointed out earlier, it'll be about his efficiency and percentages.

Iono about you dudes, but me personally...I'll take a slight dip in fg% if he is scoring in a more diversified way and creating his own scoring opportunities (especially in the clutch, down the stretch). We need a go-to-guy, not just some finisher who needs others to create for him. Plus if he becomes a threat to consistently create for himself the byproduct is that he makes his teammates better b/c they can then play off him and the attention he is garnering. Like I said, I'll take a dip in efficiency in exchange for a true go-to-guy metamorphasis.

[DocZaius]

I dunno if he'll make his team better but when you can pretty much go to the basket at will and dunk it on anyone and their momma it will be hard to judge

He will get more shots thats for sure

[dk7th]

stoudemire's finding of the open man will be vital to the knicks success as part of an inside-outside game-- just as vital as him finishing on a pick and roll, which of course is outside-inside. this will create a much more flowing, dangerous, and unpredictable offense.

i want to see him score about 24 points but on no more than 16 shots, snag 9 rebounds, and most importantly dish out 4 assists-- something closer to a garnett-like game. garnett is a terrific passer and that is why he has been considered the better player, along with stellar defense.

So Amare is suddenly going to become a great passer? He's had a pretty terrible assist rate and assist:turnover rate his entire career. What makes you think he's going to suddenly get 4 assists per game?

i am not predicting that but i am hoping for that. he did hit a wide-open chandler in the right corner from under the basket sunday. but the rest of the time he was trying to make shots over 3 pairs of arms. the knicks will be tons better for it if he finds the open man instead of trying to make shots over two or more defenders and drawing a foul every time. passing to an open teammate makes for better team chemistry.

[Deeeez Knicks]

some of you guys have it backwards.

stoudemire should not take more than 16 shot attempts per game, especially since felton cannot be expected to set him up so beautifully as only nash can. also, stoudemire should definitely NOT try to go one-on-two or one-on-three with the knicks-- on the contrary, since he knows that defenses will be keying on him he should become much more of a willing passer, either back out to a waiting gallo or to a cutter. this can be done so long as he works on not leaving his feet as he drives from the mid-post which is his usual starting point. getting to the line is great but it should NOT be the only thing that results when he is being defended by more than one player. stoudemire's finding of the open man will be vital to the knicks success as part of an inside-outside game-- just as vital as him finishing on a pick and roll, which of course is outside-inside. this will create a much more flowing, dangerous, and unpredictable offense.

i want to see him score about 24 points but on no more than 16 shots, snag 9 rebounds, and most importantly dish out 4 assists-- something closer to a garnett-like game. garnett is a terrific passer and that is why he has been considered the better player, along with stellar defense.

in other words he should take on a facilitating role as a way of taking up the slack that is there without having nash.

16-17 shots a game isnt really that much especially in our system. A lot of #1 post options get at least that. Olajuwon/Ewing/Shaq/etc all took a lot more shots per game. They were in the 20's some years. Duncan was getting 16-18 a lot of years. Even Lee was almost at 16 shots a game.

You compare Amare's career avg of 14.2 shots per game and career high of 16.7 shots per game and its not even close to other elite big men. Even Zach was taking 19 shots a game one year.

He really wasnt getting a ton of shots in Phoenix which is why his scoring will probably increase with a slight decrease in %.

An avg of around 16-17 would be good. Some nights it'll probably be 20 others probably 14. But if you can draw fouls, get good shots and shoot a high % like Amare does then 17 is really not too much.

But I do agree that I love to see good passing and ball movement. But Amare's offensive game is aggression and we shouldnt take that away too much

[Johnny Firpo]

Don't wanna be a party pooper, but i think the answer is no. Can't see him developing his back to the basket low post game at the age of 28. That's what he would need in order to be better. Felton can't, and won't create for him nearly as good as Nash did. It's Steve Nash people. The best you guys can hope is that Amare wants to be a better rebounder, and defender. He could easily average 10 boards a game, and could still be one of the best weak side blocker in the NBA. If he wants to be MVP, and wants to score 30 every night, it may be a disaster for the team.

[Capn'O]

Certainly as a LEADER and that was one of his issues in Phoenix, imo. He wanted to be the alpha and there was a hierarchy in place.

I don't think playing without Nash will make him better statistically... but the fact that he is in INCREDABLE shape and he is (knock) completely healthy) may.

In another recent thread both Stuporman and a Phoenix poster talked of Amare maturing a lot over the past few years and we all know about his spiritual travels this summer. So. Freaking. Jazzed.

Lovin' these threads 2010!

[Deeeez Knicks]

A perfect example is Dirk.

Last year of Nash: 21.8ppg, 46.2 fg%, 34.1 3p%
Year after Nash: 26.1ppg, 45.9 fg%, 39.9 3p%

He avg career highs in back to back years right after Nash. Also set career highs in fg% without Nash. Did it with Jason Terry, Marquis Daniels and a young Devin Harris as his pgs.

Nash is a great pg, but I think people go overboard and start overrating his effect.

[ElMatatan]

mike d'antoni made steve nash
steve nash made amar'e stoudemire

Stephen Colbert made MiKe Huckabee
Conan O' Brein made Stephen Colbert
Jon Stewart made Conan therefore Jon Stewart make Mike Huckabee

[Johnny Firpo]

A perfect example is Dirk.

Last year of Nash: 21.8ppg, 46.2 fg%, 34.1 3p%
Year after Nash: 26.1ppg, 45.9 fg%, 39.9 3p%

He avg career highs in back to back years right after Nash. Also set career highs in fg% without Nash. Did it with Jason Terry, Marquis Daniels and a young Devin Harris as his pgs.

Nash is a great pg, but I think people go overboard and start overrating his effect.

Dirk is one of the best ISO player in the league, he can create his shot whenever he wants to, and has historically low turnover numbers during the proccess. Amare has worse handles, and doesn't have an effective fadeaway jumper. That could turn out to be his problem without Nash, and it's really a shame, because i'm pretty sure that behind Dirk, Amare has the second best mid range jumper in the league among PF's. It's still not late for him, if he can improve his back to the basket game, and the fade away (the shot is already there) he can be better than any version of Amare we saw. Chances of that happening probably low, but who knows. With all that said, he should still concentrate on what he's doing the best, and that's the power (or more like quickness) game.