john wall vs derrick rose

[LakerLegend]

Again, keep in mind Wall is very light compared to Rose. I doubt Wall(people in general) can add enough muscle mass to be equal to Rose and maintain the speed he has now.

[DCsOwn]

Again, keep in mind Wall is very light compared to Rose. I doubt Wall(people in general) can add enough muscle mass to be equal to Rose and maintain the speed he has now.

I've seen Rose listed at two different weights, 192 and 196 (Bulls fans can probably tell us which one is accurate.) Either way, Wall weighed in at 196 pounds at the combine, and that's what he's listed as now. He just looks like he weighs less because he's taller and has pretty long limbs.

Rose is the more muscular of the two though, so who knows whether Wall can add more muscle mass (which will likely put him over 200 lbs) without losing speed. He isn't as weak as some seem to think though (not necessarily anyone on these boards, but the general sentiment seems to be that the kid is frail, and he's actually solidly built for a 20 year old rookie pg.)

[higuys]

rose wow this john wall hype is getting outrageous

[B-easy]

Right now it's Rose. Future it's wall (most likely).

As for who's going to have the better career?
I'll go with Wall since he's the better passer, and eventually he'll have better teammates to pass to.

[alucryts]

James White can dunk really good too. Guess this makes him a good basketball player.

Wall is going to be the better player. In fact, Wall is just as good as Rose right now and Wall is 19 years old. Not a knock on Rose though because Wall will eventually be a top 2 PG in this league.

im not sure how you got me saying rose is a good basketball player from a video, but it was meant to just be a fun video lol.

and yes you just over rated the crap out of wall

[alucryts]

I'm going Wall. Fastest player I've seen since Iverson. The guy is a blur. Rose a great athlete, Wall is a freak.

According to their combine numbers, Rose is faster and jumps higher, in addition to being substantially stronger. Define freak?

According to the combine numbers, Sean May is faster than Chris Paul. According to the combine numbers Sonney Weems bitch slaps the rest of the league in the speed dept. Trevor Booker timed out faster than Deron Williams. Combine numbers mean virtually nothing when the ball is in a player's hands it seems (at least it doesn't seem to tell the whole story.)

Also, you are getting a lot of mileage out of that one inch vertical advantage Rose recorded at the combine, which Wall more than makes up for with an extra 1.5 inches of height, and 3 inch advantage in standing reach. Not to mention the fact that Rose said himself that he has lost 3 inches off of his vertical since entering the league through general wear and tear (the same will happen to Wall in a few seasons, I'm just pointing what he said out since you seem to fetishize vertical measurements.)

Rose is stronger though, I won't argue that point (although Wall is a solidly put together 196 pound guy, so that advantage might be reduced after a few seasons in an NBA weight program.)

i guess the bigger picture here is if you guys want to say wall is XXX in terms of physical traits, you cannot just go ahead and dismiss the only solid metric we have as useless.

either accept the combine numbers, or dont try and use them in comparisons. you guys cant claim someone is faster bigger or stronger and when its proved wrong with combine numbers try and down play them and claim they are meaningless. if they are meaningless people shouldn't talk about who is faster and what not with only the eye test

[Zeitgeister]

I'm going Wall. Fastest player I've seen since Iverson. The guy is a blur. Rose a great athlete, Wall is a freak.

According to their combine numbers, Rose is faster and jumps higher, in addition to being substantially stronger. Define freak?

Combine numbers

John Wall
6'2.75" w/o shoes, 6'4" shoes
6'9.25" wingspan
8'5.5" reach
30.0" no step vert
39.0 max vert
10.84 agility
3.14 sprint

Derrick Rose
6'1.5" w/o shoes, 6'2.5" shoes
6'8" wingspan
8'2.5" reach
34.5 no step vert
40.0 max vert
11.69 agility
3.19 sprint

All of the data from the combine seems to pass the eye test that I had. I always thought that Derrick Rose had a little higher vertical but that it didn't really matter as much because John Wall has a pretty significant reach advantage. But you are wrong on Rose being faster, John wall scored significantly higher on the lane agility drills and was a little faster on the 3 1/4 sprint. Nevertheless, I don't even think that those athletic tests are always the best way to judge a persons athleticism. Since it's one single test, and basketball is played in 82 games over the course of a season.

[UGA Hayes]

Rose does have better mass but what good is it if he doesn't use it. He isn't very physical on defense or handling picks, and doesn't use it to get to the foul line. Rose's body control is a curse in some ways b/c he is always contorting to get the shot up instead of getting contact and freebies.

[Jvaughn]

James White can dunk really good too. Guess this makes him a good basketball player.

Wall is going to be the better player. In fact, Wall is just as good as Rose right now and Wall is 19 years old. Not a knock on Rose though because Wall will eventually be a top 2 PG in this league.

this foolishness is going in my sig..

Damn, I wanted that in my sig. You beat me to if fair and square though Poohdini.

I still find the "It's been 4 games and Wall is already better than Rose" comments. Really reminds me of the Brandon Jennings comments from last year. People can say it's not the same situation because Wall has the better physical tools, but people made the same argument last year for Jennings saying he was better because of his outside shot and PG instincts. Come talk to me around the all-star break and we'll revisit this foolishness.

[Zeitgeister]

James White can dunk really good too. Guess this makes him a good basketball player.

Wall is going to be the better player. In fact, Wall is just as good as Rose right now and Wall is 19 years old. Not a knock on Rose though because Wall will eventually be a top 2 PG in this league.

this foolishness is going in my sig..

Damn, I wanted that in my sig. You beat me to if fair and square though Poohdini.

I still find the "It's been 4 games and Wall is already better than Rose" comments. Really reminds me of the Brandon Jennings comments from last year. People can say it's not the same situation because Wall has the better physical tools, but people made the same argument last year for Jennings saying he was better because of his outside shot and PG instincts. Come talk to me around the all-star break and we'll revisit this foolishness.

LOL I can't wait. I understand not putting Wall above Rose right now because Rose is still improving all the time and Wall hasn't shown that he can consistently play great yet. But let's not forget that it was John Wall that was said to be the best college point guard prospect since Jason Kidd. It was John Wall that John Callipari said was better than Derrick Rose and Tyreke Evans when he played for them. It is John Wall that has been more impressive than both of those guys into their first 4 games in their careers. Obviously, very early and things could happen to change Wall's trajectory but let's not act surprised if John Wall does end up better than Derrick Rose.

[Jvaughn]

this foolishness is going in my sig..

Damn, I wanted that in my sig. You beat me to if fair and square though Poohdini.

I still find the "It's been 4 games and Wall is already better than Rose" comments. Really reminds me of the Brandon Jennings comments from last year. People can say it's not the same situation because Wall has the better physical tools, but people made the same argument last year for Jennings saying he was better because of his outside shot and PG instincts. Come talk to me around the all-star break and we'll revisit this foolishness.

LOL I can't wait. I understand not putting Wall above Rose right now because Rose is still improving all the time and Wall hasn't shown that he can consistently play great yet. But let's not forget that it was John Wall that was said to be the best college point guard prospect since Jason Kidd. It was John Wall that John Callipari said was better than Derrick Rose and Tyreke Evans when he played for them. It is John Wall that has been more impressive than both of those guys into their first 4 games in their careers. Obviously, very early and things could happen to change Wall's trajectory but let's not act surprised if John Wall does end up better than Derrick Rose.

ESPN hypes up a new player every year that is supposed to be the next big thing. Remember Rick Rubio? There's always going to be some guy who is supposed to be the next big thing. Calipari said Evans was better than Rose when he left, and now says Wall is better than Evans and Rose. Wonder what he'll say about Brandon Knight this year. As long as he keeps having hype following big prospects out of his school, it makes him look like a better coach, and brings more attention to him and his program. I'm not surprised he said what he said.

Wall has been more impressive than Rose and Evans' first 4 games, but once again so did Brandon Jennings, and he's not even in the same tier as Rose and Evans. Don't get me wrong, I expect big things from Wall, but it's going to take a lot more than 4 games to convince me that he's better than Rose. I'm going to need at least a season to even consider making an argument for it. I think that Wall will be a top 5 PG in the near future, and I expect for him and Rose to have great battles over the years, but there's something in Rose this year that is more unique that anything I've seen in the other PG's in the league. That includes Wall. If he can get to the point where he can balance being unstoppable on offense, and distributing the ball, then he'll have a good argument.

[23forever]

I'm going Wall. Fastest player I've seen since Iverson. The guy is a blur. Rose a great athlete, Wall is a freak.

According to their combine numbers, Rose is faster and jumps higher, in addition to being substantially stronger. Define freak?

Combine numbers

John Wall
6'2.75" w/o shoes, 6'4" shoes
6'9.25" wingspan
8'5.5" reach
30.0" no step vert
39.0 max vert
10.84 agility
3.14 sprint

Derrick Rose
6'1.5" w/o shoes, 6'2.5" shoes
6'8" wingspan
8'2.5" reach
34.5 no step vert
40.0 max vert
11.69 agility
3.19 sprint

All of the data from the combine seems to pass the eye test that I had. I always thought that Derrick Rose had a little higher vertical but that it didn't really matter as much because John Wall has a pretty significant reach advantage. But you are wrong on Rose being faster, John wall scored significantly higher on the lane agility drills and was a little faster on the 3 1/4 sprint. Nevertheless, I don't even think that those athletic tests are always the best way to judge a persons athleticism. Since it's one single test, and basketball is played in 82 games over the course of a season.

Rose's sprint was actually 3.05. Try again.

[DCsOwn]

LOL I can't wait. I understand not putting Wall above Rose right now because Rose is still improving all the time and Wall hasn't shown that he can consistently play great yet. But let's not forget that it was John Wall that was said to be the best college point guard prospect since Jason Kidd. It was John Wall that John Callipari said was better than Derrick Rose and Tyreke Evans when he played for them. It is John Wall that has been more impressive than both of those guys into their first 4 games in their careers. Obviously, very early and things could happen to change Wall's trajectory but let's not act surprised if John Wall does end up better than Derrick Rose.[/quote]

ESPN hypes up a new player every year that is supposed to be the next big thing. Remember Rick Rubio? There's always going to be some guy who is supposed to be the next big thing. Calipari said Evans was better than Rose when he left, and now says Wall is better than Evans and Rose. Wonder what he'll say about Brandon Knight this year. As long as he keeps having hype following big prospects out of his school, it makes him look like a better coach, and brings more attention to him and his program. I'm not surprised he said what he said.

Wall has been more impressive than Rose and Evans' first 4 games, but once again so did Brandon Jennings, and he's not even in the same tier as Rose and Evans. Don't get me wrong, I expect big things from Wall, but it's going to take a lot more than 4 games to convince me that he's better than Rose. I'm going to need at least a season to even consider making an argument for it. I think that Wall will be a top 5 PG in the near future, and I expect for him and Rose to have great battles over the years, but there's something in Rose this year that is more unique that anything I've seen in the other PG's in the league. That includes Wall. If he can get to the point where he can balance being unstoppable on offense, and distributing the ball, then he'll have a good argument.[/quote]

It was actually Roy Williams that said Wall was the best pg he's seen in college since Kidd. Calhoun also said that he'd rank Wall slightly ahead of Rose, but I'm sure there were/are coaches out there that think that Rose is the superior player, so that's obviously not the final word on the subject.

I agree with just about everything else you said on the matter. Rose is the better player currently, and Wall would have to fully maximize his potential to evem have a shot at being better than Rose imo.

[23forever]

freak hath been defined:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1XmWflTCRk[/youtube]

lol, well played good sir. I was hoping to get a "John Wall is as good as or a better player than Derrick Rose right now after 4 games" but they are in high demand right now. Can't wait for their head to heads and for teams to see how the rook responds to the 82 game grind and defensive adjustments. I think John Wall is very good right now and will have a good rookie year but some of you ppl are overrating the kid to a point that anything less than a substantially more athletic jason kidd with better defense would be a disappointment.

[Zeitgeister]

Gee, where have we seen an overrating of young point guards before? I clearly remember some Bulls fans thinking that Rose may be as good or better than Chris Paul after his rookie year. I may be mistaken but I believe some also said that Rose's rookie year was better than Chris Paul's.

I think it says a lot when you have people who are Bulls fans that say they would take John Wall as a prospect over Derrick Rose as a prospect, that speaks volumes.

[Legendary 33]

I think it says a lot when you have people who are Bulls fans that say they would take John Wall as a prospect over Derrick Rose as a prospect, that speaks volumes.

Most Bulls fans agree that as prospects, Wall is more impressive and the better prospect. I've stated that several times in this thread.

However, Rose in his second and third year (so far) is taking a leap that 99% of players don't make. Until Wall shows that he can do the same, we shouldn't be comparing him to Rose..is it really that hard to understand?

As prospects, Wall is comparably the better prospect. but Bulls fans believe Rose will have the better NBA career. It's that simple.

[Legendary 33]

On a side note, I wonder what people will say in retrospect when Wall's wizards lose 55+ games this season while Rose will make the playoffs for the third season in a row. It would be extremely fallacious to suggest that Rose had better teammates in 08 & 09 than Wall has right now..

[Zeitgeister]

I think it says a lot when you have people who are Bulls fans that say they would take John Wall as a prospect over Derrick Rose as a prospect, that speaks volumes.

Most Bulls fans agree that as prospects, Wall is more impressive and the better prospect. I've stated that several times in this thread.

However, Rose in his second and third year (so far) is taking a leap that 99% of players don't make. Until Wall shows that he can do the same, we shouldn't be comparing him to Rose..is it really that hard to understand?

As prospects, Wall is comparably the better prospect. but Bulls fans believe Rose will have the better NBA career. It's that simple.

Trolling? If this is what trolling looks like to you, then you are probably insecure in your opinion on the Derrick Rose vs. John Wall argument.

Last year, Rose played quite well and is showing some improvements but even then he's behind Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Steve Nash as point guards for me and I really don't think he's far above guys like Rajon Rondo or Russell Westbrook either.

These leaps and bounds you are talking about, I'm sure you are definitely using these first few games this season as ammo to prove that? Yet at the same time you are probably dismissing Wall's first few games because he's just a rookie. Well Rose's numbers so far this year are far beyond what he's done in his first two years and even then they aren't much better then what Wall has done in his first few games as a rookie. Most likely what will happen is that both players will level off.

You will continue to use wins as your sole argument because that's about all that you will have. I'm sure Celtics and Lakers fans used it against Jordan in the 80s, Trailblazers fans used it against the Thunder a couple years ago, and now this argument will be used against Wall. No, I'm not comparing either of those players to Jordan but the situation is similar. For the record, I'm NOT stating that wins aren't important, what I am stating is that if a player is actually putting up really good numbers and playing really good team basketball but that isn't translating to wins its probably because of the lack of talent around him.

Just to go to the wins argument. Derrick Rose brought his team to an 8 win improvement over the previous year, which gave them 41 wins. The next year they won the same amount, 41 wins. This year they added a very good player in Carlos Boozer so they should be even better. During Derrick's rookie year him, Ben Gordon, and John Salmons all had a part to play in getting them into the playoffs.

John Wall's team won 26 games last year. Giving them a similar turn around that Derrick did would bring them 34 wins, which wouldn't make the playoffs this year especially given the increased talent that is in the East.

[DCsOwn]

On a side note, I wonder what people will say in retrospect when Wall's wizards lose 55+ games this season while Rose will make the playoffs for the third season in a row. It would be extremely fallacious to suggest that Rose had better teammates in 08 & 09 than Wall has right now..

I'm really not sure why you think that Wall's teammates are superior to first year Rose's. The best Wizards player, or second best player if you think that Wall has surpassed him, has played something like 60 games in the last three years combined. He's already had a groin and ankle problem to start the season, and even before those injuries, there was a question about how good he would be considering the amount of time he's missed over the last few seasons, and given the severity of the injuries he's endured.

Their next best player (Josh Howard) is slated to miss the first few months of the season, and when he returns, no one knows how healthy he'll be anyway. The next best player after that has for the better part of his career been a headcase who was just beginning to put it all together when he broke his foot. He missed for months of potential workout time, came to camp woefully overweight and still is (although that's to be somewhat expected considering the fact that he couldn't run or play basketball for all of that time), and so far this young season he's been bad to very bad. Their starting center is long on athleticism but extremely short on bball iq. There are some Wizards fans that absolutely hate his style of play (how unfundamentally sound he is), and a good bit of us think that he's better suited to be a Chris Anderson type of energy player off the bench.

That outstanding lineup is augmented with a clearly regressing Kirk Hinrich, Yi Jianlian who may or may not be an actual NBA caliber role player (consistency issues) and Hilton Armstrong (definitely not an NBA caliber rotation player.) Oh yeah, but we have Al Thorton, the guy that Clippers fans were happy to see jettisoned.

Honestly, and it pains me to say it, but the Wizards front line might legitimately be the worst frontline in the league (they certainly seem to have the worst interior defense in the league.)

How in the world is that a better situation than what Rose had as a rookie?

[JordansBulls]

On a side note, I wonder what people will say in retrospect when Wall's wizards lose 55+ games this season while Rose will make the playoffs for the third season in a row. It would be extremely fallacious to suggest that Rose had better teammates in 08 & 09 than Wall has right now..

Agreed, especially once Arenas plays.