Shaun Marcum Traded to the Brewers for Brett Lawrie

[G-Mac]

Then we should trade Bautista, then. There's no reason for him to be on this team next year if we're rebuilding.

IMO he would be on the team next year so that we could still have him 2-5 years down the road. If he can repeat next year, I have reason to believe he will be a strong player until he is around 35, ball players seem to last at least that long, maybe with a little decline

[Randle McMurphy]

To me, it's utterly inexcusable that a corporation like Rogers has a below-average payroll in comparison to the rest of baseball. But I guess a lot of people are OK with that.

I'll take a below average payroll for now to prevent us getting handcuffed with bad contracts. When you spend money just to spend money, mistakes happen, like Wells and B.J Ryan. Wait to spend the cash until you know exactly what you are getting, and it puts you over the top. I'm not saying I want money-ball garbage, I am just saying wait for a couple of these young guys to prove they are legit, and sign some players to big money that will get this team over the hump and into the playoffs.

But that's what the story has been for 5 years now. Outside of one or two years in the middle of last decade (when it was only average), the Jays have had a below average payroll for the duration of Rogers' ownership. I think it's a bit much to think that money that they have promised will ever show up.

[-MetA4-]

Lawrie is going to have to develop quite a bit more to be a MLB player.

Good god you are overrating Marcum and underrating Lawrie by so much my head is starting to hurt.

Lawrie is a top prospect. He is the #1 prospect in a team's farm system. He is one of the youngest players in AA (which should tell you something about his development path). Lawrie is as good as Casey Kelly; who the Padres just got as the centerpiece in a deal for a player that is considerably better than Marcum.

What were you expecting for Marcum? Bryce Harper?

[Waylon Mercy]

I think people that think Grienke coming here is a done deal are bound for a major let down

[Hoopstarr]

That's nice, but Greinke pitches in the AL Central. If he moves to the AL East, his WAR will go down significantly.

You have absolutely zero proof of this. Greinke vs. the AL East this year:

Greinke vs. Tampa: 2 GS, 15 IP, 1.80 ERA, 0.67 WHIP
Greinke vs. Toronto: 2 GS, 15 IP, 2.40 ERA, 0.60 WHIP
Greinke vs. Baltimore: 2 GS, 15 IP, 3.00 ERA, 1.00 WHIP
Greinke vs. Boston: 2 GS, 12.2 IP, 3.55 ERA, 1.26 WHIP

57.2 IP, 17 earned runs, 2.65 ERA

So you're citing 57 Yankee-less innings as proof that Greinke's numbers won't go down against AL East competition?

You can't really be serious here, right?

Come on man. Even if he has a 5.27 career ERA vs the Yanks, that would be a stupid reason not to trade for him. He is simply better than Marcum, period. However, I do agree that he's not a necessity for us.

[Randle McMurphy]

You are making a statement based off of zero factual support. Greinke is one of the most talented pitchers in the game; he can go out and dominate anyone.

The Yankees, Red Sox and Rays are routinely among the best offenses in baseball. If a pitcher faces them in half of his starts, his numbers are going to go down. To suggest differently is ludicrous (and pointing me to a small sample size of 57 Yankee-less innings is more dishonest than anything for a person of your knowledge).

The idea that you honestly believe that Marcum is comparable to Greinke says everything that needs to be said.

Never said comparable, I said the upgrade would be diminished by the difference in competition.

[Raps in 4]

ugh, thumbs down for me. Cant believe we couldnt get more. Have never seen him play but his stats do scream mid-infielder. BA is mediocre at best, looks like a hacker. Guess he has good speed though. Replacement for Hill down the road? Drabek gets a spot then?

Lawrie is going to have to develop quite a bit more to be a MLB player.

Some guy on the Brewers official site forum threw out 2-3 years.

[dagger]

Lawrie is going to have to develop quite a bit more to be a MLB player.

Lawrie is a top prospect. He is the #1 prospect in a team's farm system. He is one of the youngest players in AA (which should tell you something about his development path). Lawrie is as good as Casey Kelly; who the Padres just got as the centerpiece in a deal for a player that is considerably better than Marcum.

What were you expecting for Marcum? Bryce Harper?

Well, first of all, not all farm systems are equal. Some teams do a poor job of drafting and player development - we ought to know that because it was not long ago that the Jays system was pretty threadbare and our "best" prospect was not that special. And your best prospect is rated 59th overall, it doesn't suggest we're dealing with the cream of a powerhouse farm system here.

However, it's getting late, and I don't care to debate this any more. I hope this trade is part of a package for a real major league upgrade that will emerge in the next week or two. Otherwise, it fails to fit my parameters for the kind of trades this organization should be making this winter.

[G-Mac]

To me, it's utterly inexcusable that a corporation like Rogers has a below-average payroll in comparison to the rest of baseball. But I guess a lot of people are OK with that.

I'll take a below average payroll for now to prevent us getting handcuffed with bad contracts. When you spend money just to spend money, mistakes happen, like Wells and B.J Ryan. Wait to spend the cash until you know exactly what you are getting, and it puts you over the top. I'm not saying I want money-ball garbage, I am just saying wait for a couple of these young guys to prove they are legit, and sign some players to big money that will get this team over the hump and into the playoffs.

But that's what the story has been for 5 years now. Outside of one or two years in the middle of last decade (when it was only average), the Jays have had a below average payroll for the duration of Rogers' ownership. I think it's a bit much to think that money that they have promised will ever show up.

I would agree with you if we still had the same GM in JP. JP had his cash-infusion opportunity, and it didn't work out. What was it like 250million I believe? AA needs an opportunity to build his own groundwork, hopefully better than JP Ricciardi did, before he should get the opportunity to throw around that kinda cash. In an ideal world we have a rich owner like steinbrenner or Mark Cuban with the Mavs who can just buy everything all the time, but my expectations for a corporate owner like Rogers 'dont really exceed them spending when they deem it fits, SO LONG AS THEY WILL DO IT.

Maybe they just have me brainwashed though haha. If in 2 years we havn't signed a big free agent or made a big money acquisition, I will be in your boat, and hate on Rogers.

[Randle McMurphy]

Even if he has a 5.27 career ERA vs the Yanks, that would be a stupid reason not to trade for him. He is simply better than Marcum, period.

Not sure when I ever suggested he wasn't. Read the thread.

However, I do agree that he's not a necessity for us.

Especially since our 2011 team just took a significant hit.

[Randle McMurphy]

What were you expecting for Marcum? Bryce Harper?

For a proven, above-average major league pitcher under control for two more years? A hell of a lot more than a raw player like Brett Lawrie.

[-MetA4-]

Well, first of all, not all farm systems are equal. Some teams do a poor job of drafting and player development - we ought to know that because it was not long ago that the Jays system was pretty threadbare and our "best" prospect was not that special. And your best prospect is rated 59th overall, it doesn't suggest we're dealing with the cream of a powerhouse farm system here.

Lawrie is a top prospect; and I'd be willing to bet would rate no lower than #2 if BA re-did our Top 10.

[darth_federer]

Wow Brewers fans dont like this deal at all.

[Yosemite Dan]

Some of you guys can spin this trade anyway you want to make yourself feel better but this is an absolutely HORRIBLE trade. I'm not sure what AA is smoking but I think he just made his 1st major mistake. You do not give up a legit #2 starter (any argument to the contrary is silly) for a prospect and Lawrie is far from a sure thing and several years away from the major leagues so it's like he is gonna help us in any way in the next 3 years.

If AA thinks that he's got legit and consistent workhorse starters in Morrow and Cecil then we all might be in for a rude awakening. Cecil didn't finish well and had good run support last year and Morrow could not even be counted to pitch the last 6 weeks of the season because of concerns about damaging his arm so he is not a sure thing by any means and he's been inconsistent his whole career. To say he bombs next year is a distinct possibility because he's like Burnett between the ears and not the strongest mentally.

Basically we had Romero and Marcum who could be counted to quality and consistent starters next year and to give up half that for a 2nd basemen who may have to be a 3rd baseman but not 3rd baseman power makes little sense at this point. I can see Marcum becoming the next Chris Carpenter in the NL. This trade may haunt us.

[Randle McMurphy]

Then we should trade Bautista, then. There's no reason for him to be on this team next year if we're rebuilding.

IMO he would be on the team next year so that we could still have him 2-5 years down the road. If he can repeat next year, I have reason to believe he will be a strong player until he is around 35, ball players seem to last at least that long, maybe with a little decline

There's no point in spending 8-10M on Bautista in a year that they aren't going to contend. They should sell high on his production and acquire prospects/young controllable talent.

[darth_federer]

One reason #Brewers willing to give up top prospect Lawrie for 2 yrs of Marcum: They think they have chance to sign Marcum MORE #BlueJays

...long-term. #BlueJays were talking to Marcum about 3-yr deal. Marcum, from KC, said to be excited to return to Midwest. #Brewers #MLB

http://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal

[Randle McMurphy]

Wow Brewers fans dont like this deal at all.

It's a bit odd from their perspective, because I thought they were rebuilding as well. But they really shouldn't be upset about acquiring a very good pitcher like Marcum for the cost of raw AA prospect.

[SharoneWright]

What were you expecting for Marcum? Bryce Harper?

For a proven, above-average major league pitcher under control for two more years? A hell of a lot more than a raw player like Brett Lawrie.

Marcum's only as proven as his last season...

[Randle McMurphy]

I think people that think Grienke coming here is a done deal are bound for a major let down

I hope he isn't now. It really wouldn't make any sense at all.

[Randle McMurphy]

What were you expecting for Marcum? Bryce Harper?

For a proven, above-average major league pitcher under control for two more years? A hell of a lot more than a raw player like Brett Lawrie.

Marcum's only as proven as his last season...

And his 2008 season. As I said, the question with him is injury, not performance-based.