Shaun Marcum Traded to the Brewers for Brett Lawrie

[Randle McMurphy]

That inexpensive 29 year old is a replaceable commodity since there are several other pitchers higher them him on the ceiling chart. Is that so hard to understand?

Are you serious with this?

We're not talking about trading away a 1B who is blocking a stud 1B we have ready in the minors.

We're talking about a high quality starting bloody pitcher! Replaceable commodity?! You do realize that even if we're the luckiest team in the world and avoid all injuries, we'll still need at least 5 of those guys to preform well!? You mean to tell me we have 5 guys in the organization who can be expected to put up an ERA in the mid 3's and a WAR better than 3.6 over the next 2-5 years?

There has never been and never will be such a thing as "too much" good starting pitching. It doesn't happen. If we had 5 guys who put up numbers like Marcum, we'd be the AL East favourite every year.

Pat Gillick's biggest trait was taking calculated risks. Mediocre players do not win you AL East. So if you can deal from a position of strength to shore up a position of weakness, you do it.

There's nothing mediocre at all about Shaun Marcum.

AL East stats:
Lester 5.6 WAR, 3.13 FIP, 3.29 xFIP
Sabathia 5.1 WAR, 3.54 FIP, 3.78 xFIP
Price 4.3 WAR, 3.42 FIP, 3.99 xFIP
Romero 4.0 WAR, 3.64 FIP, 3.75 xFIP
Lackey 4.0 WAR, 3.85 FIP, 4.32 xFIP
Buchholz 3.7 WAR, 3.61 FIP, 4.20 xFIP
Morrow 3.7 WAR, 3.16 FIP, 3.63 xFIP
Marcum 3.5 WAR, 3.74 FIP, 3.90 xFIP

[guvernator]

Pat Gillick's biggest trait was taking calculated risks. Mediocre players do not win you AL East. So if you can deal from a position of strength to shore up a position of weakness, you do it.

The irrelevant Gillick anecdote aside, your argument is that Marcum is a mediocre player?

He had a WAR of 3.6. If every single player on our team had the same relative performance, we'd be the best team in baseball.

So yes, a team full of those kind of players will certainly get it done.

Baseball reference has him at 3.1 WAR. Besides what is the guarantee that he repeats it since metrics show that he overachieved?

[Randle McMurphy]

Schad, I believed that we did have a chance, but that depended entirely on upgrading the roster (and probably using some cash to do it). With Marcum's departure, there's not much reason to even attempt at this point. What do you think of the idea of trading Bautista (and others)? I don't see much reason for him to be on the team next year, and if 2012 and beyond is really the target, it would be beneficial to get as much as we can for that period.

[darth_federer]

Guys, some of you have wasted pages arguging this trade. Why dont you wait a bit to see how it pans out before you condemn it? I never understood the rush to grade a deal as soon as it happened.

[kwamebargnani]

I don't hate it, but I'm not too thrilled either. Should've gotten one more low propsect

[spykelee]

It's like 3:40am on page 21 of a trade that most major sports stations haven't even reported on yet... am I the only one questioning the sanity of Toronto's baseball fans?

[-MetA4-]

Marcum didn't have to be traded for the equivalent of Kyle Drabek for it to be a good value deal for the Jays.

Ahh; then you wanted a proven major league player?

That wasn't going to happen either. Any team looking to acquire Marcum would want to do so to improve their playoff standing or to make a push for the playoffs. Neither of those "teams" is going to want to give up already contributing pieces of the roster, because that is simply addition by subtraction. The Brewer fan that was on here is right: their management wants to make one last shot before Fielder bolts. Marcum is a cheap (money wise) short term fix that they can choose to extend or let go for draft picks once the Fielder saga concludes itself.

[Randle McMurphy]

Ahh; then you wanted a proven major league player?

What I wanted was fair value for a very valuable and relatively cheap pitcher. That could have been made up with prospects, major league players, etc. But a guy like Brett Lawrie, who is still years away, isn't that.

Neither of those "teams" is going to want to give up already contributing pieces of the roster, because that is simply addition by subtraction. The Brewer fan that was on here is right: their management wants to make one last shot before Fielder bolts. Marcum is a cheap (money wise) short term fix that they can choose to extend or let go for draft picks once the Fielder saga concludes itself.

This isn't entirely true at all. A team with a pitching need could very easily have traded an offensive player from their MLB roster for Marcum. Deals like that aren't exactly unusual.

[Schad]

Schad, I believed that we did have a chance, but that depended entirely on upgrading the roster (and probably using some cash to do it). With Marcum's departure, there's not much reason to even attempt at this point. What do you think of the idea of trading Bautista (and others)? I don't see much reason for him to be on the team next year, and if 2012 and beyond is really the target, it would be beneficial to get as much as we can for that period.

IMO, any slight shot we had at contending ended when the Sox got Gonzalez. They were likely to improve anyway given how badly they were ravaged by injury last year, but with Gonzalez in the mix and more moves to come, the odds that we'd keep up were slim.

With Bautista, it really depends on what is offered. If someone values him as a 50 HR a year guy, I think you deal...in large part because I don't see him doing nearly that good ever again. If not, keep him. Hill and Lind don't have the value at the moment to make it worthwhile.

This isn't entirely true at all. A team with a pitching need could very easily have traded an offensive player from their MLB roster for Marcum.

But not a guy with star potential. I'd rather take an unready player with a shot at being a beast than a ready player with more prosaic skills. All in all, we got a top 25 prospect for a guy who was the 40th-ranked pitcher by WAR...I can live with that.

[-MetA4-]

But a guy like Brett Lawrie, who is still years away, isn't that.

LMAO; he is a top prospect who could literally be a year away. How far away do you honestly believe he is? Years away? He already has one productive full season in AA. 1.5 years away is not pushing anything, and in prospect terms that is not far away at all.

Again, now we're just talking in circles: you think we should have gotten some top prospect that can play tomorrow. I already explained that those types of prospects dont get traded for Shaun Marcum, no matter what you want to believe.

[Randle McMurphy]

It's like 3:40am on page 21 of a trade that most major sports stations haven't even reported on yet... am I the only one questioning the sanity of Toronto's baseball fans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7FdD8NJar0

[Randle McMurphy]

LMAO; he is a top prospect who could literally be a year away. How far away do you honestly believe he is? Years away? He already has one productive full season in AA. 1.5 years away is not pushing anything, and in prospect terms that is not far away at all.

He's still a 20 year old with serious defensive questions. There is some significant development needed in his game yet.

Again, now we're just talking in circles: you think we should have gotten some top prospect that can play tomorrow. I already explained that those types of prospects dont get traded for Shaun Marcum, no matter what you want to believe.

No, I just think a very good pitcher like Marcum is worth more than Brett Lawrie. It's really not that outrageous, considering it's the same opinion you held only a few months ago (and possibly tonight before you found out that the Jays made the trade).

[darth_federer]

you sound like a leafs fan who knows a little bit about the Jays, just because you don't get major leaguers doesn't mean its a bad deal

Don't be a (Please Use More Appropriate Word), Avenger.

Btw, post of the thread lol

[Randle McMurphy]

IMO, any slight shot we had at contending ended when the Sox got Gonzalez. They were likely to improve anyway given how badly they were ravaged by injury last year, but with Gonzalez in the mix and more moves to come, the odds that we'd keep up were slim.

I'm not sure the Red Sox will be any better than they were last year, even with AGon. Beltre was great for them last year.

With Bautista, it really depends on what is offered. If someone values him as a 50 HR a year guy, I think you deal...in large part because I don't see him doing nearly that good ever again. If not, keep him.

And what if they value him as a 30 HR hitter? That's where most would probably set his value right now. I think it's really in their best interests to get what they can for him if they aren't contending next year.

But not a guy with star potential. I'd rather take an unready player with a shot at being a beast than a ready player with more prosaic skills. All in all, we got a top 25 prospect for a guy who was the 40th-ranked pitcher by WAR...I can live with that.

Considering his competition last year, Marcum's ranking in WAR was quite impressive indeed. Not sure he would have kept the same level up next year, but I still don't see much of a reason to trade him straight up for a guy like Lawrie (even if his ceiling is high).

[-MetA4-]

It's really not that outrageous, considering it's the same opinion you held only a few months ago (and possibly tonight before you found out that the Jays made the trade).

I already explained that, but since you're being an obvious dick:

My prognosis as to the power potential of Brett Lawrie at the time of that statement was ~20 HR power. For a player of that power to move from the infield to an outfield spot I saw an obvious drop in value. However; my opinion at the time was formulated hastily and it is now obvious that quite a few scouts believe that Lawrie has 30 HR type power. A 30 HR bat with his hitting ability will play anywhere; even if he has to move out to the outfield.

Now how about you explain why you think we should have been able to get much more than Lawrie? Map out your scouting report on Lawrie (considering you obviously seem to be much less high on him than anyone else).

[spykelee]

It's like 3:40am on page 21 of a trade that most major sports stations haven't even reported on yet... am I the only one questioning the sanity of Toronto's baseball fans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7FdD8NJar0

Speaking of trades, with how good Alex English has done with Amir maybe we should pick up this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCcSQPh2Bc

[Randle McMurphy]

It's like 3:40am on page 21 of a trade that most major sports stations haven't even reported on yet... am I the only one questioning the sanity of Toronto's baseball fans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7FdD8NJar0

Speaking of trades, with how good Alex English has done with Amir maybe we should pick up this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCcSQPh2Bc

The Raptors seem to be in constant need of a real center.

[Schad]

I'm not sure the Red Sox will be any better than they were last year, even with AGon. Beltre was great for them last year.

Yeah, but my feeling was that we'd catch them only if they **** up the offseason...threw massive amounts of cash at Crawford only for him to regress, blew money on the wrong starter, and so forth. They lost Youk for 50+ games, Pedroia for half the year, Ellsbury for virtually the entire year, and both Lackey and Beckett stunk (and while I don't like either of them, they're not likely to be that bad again). Getting Gonzalez for peanuts makes it much more difficult to **** it up.

And what if they value him as a 30 HR hitter? That's where most would probably set his value right now. I think it's really in their best interests to get what they can for him if they aren't contending next year.

Not if you're planning to contend in 2012...if teams aren't offering quite a bit, look to buy out a couple FA years with a relatively short deal (or a deal with multiple options) that pays him like a big-time hitter. If he regresses, you only have to eat it for two seasons.

Considering his competition last year, Marcum's ranking in WAR was quite impressive indeed. Not sure he would have kept the same level up next year, but I still don't see much of a reason to trade him straight up for a guy like Lawrie (even if his ceiling is high).

Like I said, I'm iffy on the deal. But I don't think that the value is far out of whack...if Lawrie's power comes along, he becomes the sort of player that teams will part with the moon to get.

[Waylon Mercy]

The Blue Jays are always 2 years away from being 2 years away

[hyper316]

The Blue Jays are always 2 years away from being 2 years away

i know i can be impatient, but 2012 should be the earliest for contention, i can wait another year