[Camelo Thread 14] - Minny, Denver and NY working!! p28

[seren]

Wiretap saying Wolves don't wanna trade Brewer. Am I missing something? Haven't really seen Brewer that much of late but has his game improved that much? I see him as a guy who could be a good role player on a good team down the line but the Wolves are not at that stage so why would he be holding up a deal?

Trade works without Brewer. He should not be a deal breaker. Dude is shooting below 40 percent and he is up for extension in the summer. I don't even think Denver is that much into him.

[captain subtext]

You know what's kinda pissing me off a little bit:

We're in the same situation as last year with D'Antoni refusing to play a young big man who is valuable to as as a trade piece - therefor diminishing his trade value to the point where we might have to add something to get it done.
Randolph playing reasonable minutes, averaging blocks and rebounds like he's capable of would surely speed things up, wether he'd land in Minnesota, Denver, Sacramento, Cleveland, Toronto (or whoever has trade exeptions big enough to take on Curry).

[Context]

What ever will be the deal between NY and DEN...MIN in this scenario gets to little:

MIN is the key with taking Curry, because of huge savings for DEN. I think NY should throw in 2014 first rounder to MIN, than I think this could work.

I think they can get late 1 rounder from top NBA team for Brewer regardless if he is expiring, because on defensive end he could be real help in playoffs for any contender. For instance if Boston offers Daniels+Wafer+1rounder for Brewer would DEN say no. I do not think so.

Cap space,1 rounder(UTA or MEM) for AR,Curry imo is ok. But adding Brewer in it is just a bad trade for MIN.

NY must sweeten the deal to MIN and I do not think Rautins will be enough.

Two points.

First, Minny is obviously surveying the league at this point. Hopefully they find no value in using their 17 days of "cap space".

Second, as long as we don't include Gallo, Felton, Stat, Fields and Moz I'm very flexible.

[cgf]

You know what's kinda pissing me off a little bit:

We're in the same situation as last year with D'Antoni refusing to play a young big man who is valuable to as as a trade piece - therefor diminishing his trade value to the point where we might have to add something to get it done.
Randolph playing reasonable minutes, averaging blocks and rebounds like he's capable of would surely speed things up, wether he'd land in Minnesota, Denver, Sacramento, Cleveland, Toronto (or whoever has trade exeptions big enough to take on Curry).

The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes that AR playing more owuld be a net positive rather than a negative to his trade value.If he was just force fed minutes continuing to play the he was playing during his earlier stints his value would be lower now than it was then because it would be painfully clear to teams just how far away from contributing AR is and just how much development he still needs. Now he's at least shown that he's been broken down and can be a helpful player and not hurt his team out there which is a big step in the development of a good player. Teams no he can board and blocks some shots, but him coming in and not crippling his team on offense and actually not playing terrible man defense is much more important to his trade value than all of the boards he could've grabbed if he didn't show that maturation.

Plus it neglects that we'd probably have a worse record and so less leverage since Melo would be championing for a sub .500 team and by proxy all of our other assets would be less valuable and we'd look like we were more desperate.

[Context]

You know what's kinda pissing me off a little bit:

We're in the same situation as last year with D'Antoni refusing to play a young big man who is valuable to as as a trade piece - therefor diminishing his trade value to the point where we might have to add something to get it done.
Randolph playing reasonable minutes, averaging blocks and rebounds like he's capable of would surely speed things up, wether he'd land in Minnesota, Denver, Sacramento, Cleveland, Toronto (or whoever has trade exeptions big enough to take on Curry).

I agree and although it may sound extreme but who's to say that Curry couldn't play and be seen as more valuable as well. I see coaches like Pop play almost every single guy on their roster. Not D'antoni

[seren]

What ever will be the deal between NY and DEN...MIN in this scenario gets to little:

MIN is the key with taking Curry, because of huge savings for DEN. I think NY should throw in 2014 first rounder to MIN, than I think this could work.

I think they can get late 1 rounder from top NBA team for Brewer regardless if he is expiring, because on defensive end he could be real help in playoffs for any contender. For instance if Boston offers Daniels+Wafer+1rounder for Brewer would DEN say no. I do not think so.

Cap space,1 rounder(UTA or MEM) for AR,Curry imo is ok. But adding Brewer in it is just a bad trade for MIN.

NY must sweeten the deal to MIN and I do not think Rautins will be enough.

Two points.

First, Minny is obviously surveying the league at this point. Hopefully they find no value in use their 18 days of "cap space".

Second, as long as we don't include Gallo, Felton, Stat, Fields and Moz I'm very flexible.

You are probably right about Minny. There are not that many prospects they can get for cap space though. Houston might be interested in Jeffries + Hill for cap space, but is Hill anything closer to AR? I don't think so. Other than that, I don't see anyone giving up a young player.

[Context]

You know what's kinda pissing me off a little bit:

We're in the same situation as last year with D'Antoni refusing to play a young big man who is valuable to as as a trade piece - therefor diminishing his trade value to the point where we might have to add something to get it done.
Randolph playing reasonable minutes, averaging blocks and rebounds like he's capable of would surely speed things up, wether he'd land in Minnesota, Denver, Sacramento, Cleveland, Toronto (or whoever has trade exeptions big enough to take on Curry).

The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes that AR playing more owuld be a net positive rather than a negative to his trade value.If he was just force fed minutes continuing to play the he was playing during his earlier stints his value would be lower now than it was then because it would be painfully clear to teams just how far away from contributing AR is and just how much development he still needs. Now he's at least shown that he's been broken down and can be a helpful player and not hurt his team out there which is a big step in the development of a good player. Teams no he can board and blocks some shots, but him coming in and not crippling his team on offense and actually not playing terrible man defense is much more important to his trade value than all of the boards he could've grabbed if he didn't show that maturation.

Plus it neglects that we'd probably have a worse record and so less leverage since Melo would be championing for a sub .500 team and by proxy all of our other assets would be less valuable and we'd look like we were more desperate.

Double edged sword I guess... I see the other side...

[Capn'O]

Whelp... Donnie hasn't blinked all year and it looks like we're going to get Melo at the RIGHT price sooner or later. Pretty freaking awesome. I just don't think we have to worry about an Isiah style asset acquisition here. Donnie has never been willing to gut the team.

[BernardKing]

It may not be our choice. Denver isn't completely in control, but have some power. If they say "you're taking Al", then we're taking Al.

Gotta disagree with you there. We have leverage, so just say no to the Harrington contract.

I would rather give away more talent than take on a terrible contract like that. Knick fans need to learn from the past 10 years when we were capped out with no hope of getting under the cap. A year from now, Carmelo will be lighting up the garden, and we'll be looking at another important free agent crop with our cap flexibility intact. That is, unless we blow it by doing something crazy like taking on that albatross Harrington contract. No way. Just no way.

[Context]

You are probably right about Minny. There are not that many prospects they can get for cap space though. Houston might be interested in Jeffries + Hill for cap space, but is Hill anything closer to AR? I don't think so. Other than that, I don't see anyone giving up a young player.

I think either Nolayup or Knicksgod said it best. It's great news that they are talking about this deal. It may not be the final deal but the fact that they are talking- represents realistic possibilities.

[captain subtext]

@cgf: I certainly see that point, but I'm not talking about force feeding him minutes. Most of us agree that there is a role here for him to be played. After all he is rebounding and contesting shots everytime he gets on the court. His struggles come on the offensive side, looking to do too much. I just don't see how the guy isn't manageable to a point where he helps the team (that could use his strengths) and his value.
But we've been over this in a couple of threads (at this point, what new thing can be said anyway).

It's just sad to see how he fell from the hyped kid of last summer to somehow Minnesota squirming to take him on for Brewer and a home for Eddy's corpse.

[klemen4]

You are probably right about Minny. There are not that many prospects they can get for cap space though. Houston might be interested in Jeffries + Hill for cap space, but is Hill anything closer to AR? I don't think so. Other than that, I don't see anyone giving up a young player.

They will not get anything for cap space. There are only 7 team over the luxury tax:

1. Los Angeles Lakers $91,569,659
2. Orlando Magic $89,139,596
3. Dallas Mavericks $87,889,633
4. Boston Celtics $83,790,759
5. Denver Nuggets $83,020,059
6. Utah Jazz $75,785,355
7. Houston Rockets $74,581,719

None except Houston have
1) 6-8 mil exp. contract +
2) young prospect

There is no deal out there like that...exp.contract+prospect for cap space and with that savings.

The problem in this 3 way deal I see is MIN including Brewer for nothing. That is why NY imo must give MIN at least Rautins or 2 runder or even future 1.rounder!

[seren]

You are probably right about Minny. There are not that many prospects they can get for cap space though. Houston might be interested in Jeffries + Hill for cap space, but is Hill anything closer to AR? I don't think so. Other than that, I don't see anyone giving up a young player.

They will not get anything for cap space. There are only 7 team over the luxury tax:

1. Los Angeles Lakers $91,569,659
2. Orlando Magic $89,139,596
3. Dallas Mavericks $87,889,633
4. Boston Celtics $83,790,759
5. Denver Nuggets $83,020,059
6. Utah Jazz $75,785,355
7. Houston Rockets $74,581,719

None except Houston have
1) 6-8 mil exp. contract +
2) young prospect

There is no deal out there like that...exp.contract+prospect for cap space and with that savings.

The problem in this 3 way deal I see is MIN including Brewer for nothing. That is why NY imo must give MIN at least Rauting or 2 runder or even future 1.rounder!!!!!!!

The deal works without Brewer as I mentioned before. I don't see why his name is even mentioned. Unless Denver really loves Brewer, I don't see him as a deal breaker.

[nykstevenyg]

As long we don't trade amare, felton, gallo, fields and mozgov were good.

Obviously every player except amare is tradable for the right player but we have all the leverage with mello y give up and important part?

[Jitpal]

Brewer is probably the young talent, along with the Chandler, that Denver plans to sell their fanbase on. Send Minny Rautins and the GSW 2nd rounder so we can get this deal done. Better yet, add Douglas and Ridnour to the deal as well. Get it done! -Jitpal

[shrink]

You are probably right about Minny. There are not that many prospects they can get for cap space though. Houston might be interested in Jeffries + Hill for cap space, but is Hill anything closer to AR? I don't think so. Other than that, I don't see anyone giving up a young player.

They will not get anything for cap space. There are only 7 team over the luxury tax:

1. Los Angeles Lakers $91,569,659
2. Orlando Magic $89,139,596
3. Dallas Mavericks $87,889,633
4. Boston Celtics $83,790,759
5. Denver Nuggets $83,020,059
6. Utah Jazz $75,785,355
7. Houston Rockets $74,581,719

None except Houston have
1) 6-8 mil exp. contract +
2) young prospect

There is no deal out there like that...exp.contract+prospect for cap space and with that savings.

The problem in this 3 way deal I see is MIN including Brewer for nothing. That is why NY imo must give MIN at least Rautins or 2 runder or even future 1.rounder!

And all those teams, they have guys at the end of their bench that aren't getting the playing time to be worth paying double with luxury tax.

MIN could absorb a contract and get paid in cash or late picks, and they've done this two of the last four years.

And moreover, other teams could be looking simply to move a guy that's worth more than his contract, or clear cap space for this summer (since MIN can take back a 2-year deal and still have time to pay Love and Beasley in 2012). Cap space has value.

[Context]

You are probably right about Minny. There are not that many prospects they can get for cap space though. Houston might be interested in Jeffries + Hill for cap space, but is Hill anything closer to AR? I don't think so. Other than that, I don't see anyone giving up a young player.

They will not get anything for cap space. There are only 7 team over the luxury tax:

1. Los Angeles Lakers $91,569,659
2. Orlando Magic $89,139,596
3. Dallas Mavericks $87,889,633
4. Boston Celtics $83,790,759
5. Denver Nuggets $83,020,059
6. Utah Jazz $75,785,355
7. Houston Rockets $74,581,719

None except Houston have
1) 6-8 mil exp. contract +
2) young prospect

There is no deal out there like that...exp.contract+prospect for cap space and with that savings.

The problem in this 3 way deal I see is MIN including Brewer for nothing. That is why NY imo must give MIN at least Rautins or 2 runder or even future 1.rounder!

Hey Klem, There are fans on the Minny board that want to Dump Flynn. We could take him back and send Azub contract(just an example). I think there's a lot of possibilities with Minny without including Mozz, Fields, or Gallo. I think it can be worked out between the two of us...

[shrink]

I understand many Knicks fans reluctance to take Al Harrington back, but the bottom line is that NYK can afford it.

I'm probably one of the biggest advocates of even rich teams defending their money, but the truth is, the Knicks and Lakers are far richer than anyone else. The basis of this deal is saving DEN huge amounts of money, because its easier to pay NYK money than talent to lock up Melo. Harrington's contract isn't that bad, and even if it was, a little cash would help NYK move it or they could always buy him out.

I agree Chris Andreson would be the prefered player for NYK. It will be interesting to see if Walsh could squeeze DEN into this.

[shrink]

Hey Klem, There are fans on the Minny board that want to Dump Flynn. We could take him back and send Azub contract(just an example). I think there's a lot of possibilities with Minny without including Mozz, Fields, or Gallo. I think it can be worked out between the two of us...

Yeah, but that's fans, many of whom were never invested in Flynn. Unfortunately, Walsh has to deal with Kahn, who has a lot of his credibility locked up into Flynn. Heck, he told MIN fans that he thought Flynn would be an All Star some day! It's much easier for Kahn to say, "you just wait!" then admit a mistake with the #6 pick in Flynn's sophomore season.

Kahn will listen to offers, since Flynn may be traded if Rubio is coming over. But I expect without a good offer, he waits until summer, to make sure he has Rubio signed to a contract, before discaring Flynn. Moreover, Flynn's trade value can only go up from this point.

[klemen4]

This should be the trade:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=64zo5ye

DEN: Chandler, Walker, UTA or MEM first via MIN, NY 2014 first(maybe)
NY: Anthony, Telfair
MIN: Curry, AR, 3 mil via NY

- DEN gets under the luxury tax, gets Chadler, Walker + 2 first rounder
- MIN trading cap space+first rounder for AR and 3 mil for taking Curry
- NY getting Anthony+Telfair(who can play and also saving MIN what is left of his salary - 0,9 mil).